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Regen changesFollow

#1 Feb 05 2009 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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As we have suggested, we have become concerned that mana regeneration is currently too powerful, especially for healers. We want players to have to keep an eye on mana. We don’t want you to go out of mana every fight, but running out of mana should be a very real risk for sloppy playing or attempting content that you aren’t yet ready for. When mana regeneration is trivial then certain parts of the game break down – classes that offer Replenishment are devalued, stats that offer mana regeneration are devalued, and spells that are efficient are neglected in preference to spells with high throughput.

Here are a list of changes you are likely to see in 3.1. They will be available to try out on the PTR. Mana regeneration is somewhat technical, so please bear with us.

* Regeneration while not casting (outside of the “five second rule”) will be decreased. We think that (1) the ability to cast heal over time spells and then sit back and (2) benefitting from a clearcasting proc that also gets you out of the five second rule both provide too much mana regeneration, even over short time periods.

* To make this change, we are reducing mana regeneration granted by Spirit across the board. However we are also boosting the effects of talents such as Meditation that increase regeneration while casting. The net result should be that your regeneration while casting will stay about the same, but your not-casting regeneration will be reduced. This change will have little impact on dps casters, since they are basically always casting.

* The specific talents and abilities being boosted are: Arcane Meditation, Improved Spirit Tap, Intensity, Mage Armor, Meditation, Pyromaniac and Spirit Tap. Yes this makes these “mandatory” talents even more mandatory, if such a thing is possible.

* Since paladins rely less on Spirit as a mana-regeneration stat, we have to address them in other ways. We don’t want to change Illumination or Replenishment. However, we are going to increase the healing penalty on Divine Plea from 20% to 50%. Divine Plea was originally intended to help Protection and Retribution paladins stay full on mana. It should be a decision for Holy paladins, not something that is automatically used every cooldown.

* In addition, we are also changing the way Spiritual Attunement works. In situations with a large amount of outgoing raid damage, as well as in PvP, this passive ability was responsible for more mana regeneration than we would like. We want to keep the necessary benefit it grants to tanking Protection paladins, while making it less powerful for Holy paladins in PvP or raid encounters with a lot of group damage.

* We are also taking a close look at clearcasting procs themselves. One likely outcome is to change them to an Innervate-like surge of mana so that the net benefit is the same, but healers won’t shift to out-of-casting regeneration so often.

* We balance around the assumption that even 10-player groups have someone offering Replenishment. To make this even easier on players we are likely to offer this ability to additional classes, as well as make sure that existing sources of Replenishment are more equitable.

* These changes are ultimately being done to bring the different healing classes more in line with each other as well as to give the encounter team more leeway when designing encounters, who can balance with these new mana regeneration numbers in mind. In a world with infinite healer mana, the only way to challenge healers is with increasingly insane amount of raid damage, so that global cooldowns become the limiting factor since mana fails to be. An example is the Eredar Twins in late Sunwell. We weren’t necessarily happy with that model, and this change hopefully allows us to move towards giving healing a more deliberate and thoughtful pace rather than frenetic spam.


Source

Now. All in all I see this as a good thing. It sounds like Holy priests will be relying on Meditation rather than trying to cheat the 5SR, which was becoming increasingly hard to do anyway. They seem to think that'll make healing harder, but if the while-casting regen really does remain about the same, as suggested, I don't see it as a big problem. It'll also be nice to use Inner Focus to help proc crits on key spells rather than to cheat the 5SR all the time.

But. Someone needs to explain to me why I care about Spirit at all anymore. And if that's the case, why I'd be trading emblems and/or honor for "healing" sets that stack spirit versus caster sets that stack crit. Is there any point at all? What purples will you be looking at?
#2 Feb 05 2009 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
Someone needs to explain to me why I care about Spirit at all anymore. And if that's the case, why I'd be trading emblems and/or honor for "healing" sets that stack spirit versus caster sets that stack crit. Is there any point at all? What purples will you be looking at?


Well, it sounds like Spirit will still partially determine your mana return from Meditation, and as a Holy priest you’ll still get spellpower from it. Sounds like the days of stacking it and cancel-casting may be drawing to a close though, I agree.

Is crit a strong stat for Holy? I’d expect you to go for haste as your HPS booster.

I want the purples with crit, but I’m disc.

#3 Feb 05 2009 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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emmitsvenson wrote:

Is crit a strong stat for Holy? I’d expect you to go for haste as your HPS booster.


I'm all about crit because of Surge of Light and Holy Concentration. As it stands right now, it's actually a mana management stat, among other things. With 20+% Holy Crit and 6 chances to crit with every CoH, 5 with every PoH, and another one every time the heal ball takes a bounce, I'm hardly paying for my Flash Heals and Greater Heals at all anymore.
#4 Feb 05 2009 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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It goes without saying, if Spirit is downplayed it's going to lose some value, and a bit of armor reshuffling will be in order. How much is for the number-crunchers to decide post-patch, but I don't think Blizzard would go so far as to devalue it completely. (As I think they've made this mistake once before? I'd like to think they learned from it).

There's always Spiritual Guidance, I guess? ;p


I do caution you against abandoning spirit for a love affair with Crit, though.

Admittedly, Spirit might not be quite the catch he used to be, but he's dependable. Crit, oh Crit. Everyone's charmed by his devil-may-care attitude, large flashy 4-figure income, and protective shield and/or armor increase and/or clearcasting state. But it always has to be on his terms. He's never around when you need him, and always cropping up when you don't.

In looking at the situation in terms of Effectiveness vs. Longevity. Spirit is mostly about longevity, but it's longevity you can control and depend on. Crit is both effectiveness and longevity, but it's completely up to the Random Number Generator and a million unpredictable permutations of your own teammates actions and the battle at large exactly how much this is so.


Don't get me wrong, I'm Disc, I do like me some Crit. <3
But it, like anything, has it's downside.



Edited, Feb 5th 2009 6:22pm by Zemzelette
#5 Feb 05 2009 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Mmm....
I'm running over 600 mp5 and 16xx spell power when buffed. I'm still running out of mana here and there (maybe it's cause I'm running Heroics now lol!). Not that I can't manage it (I've actually started using pots again). But there are times when things run tight. What I really miss and would like to see is Hymn Of Hope changed back(channel, channel, channel, BLAH!!!!). Espically if they are going to take down regen for us. I used to use that spell all the time. Now, more often than not I don't bother. When I'm that low on mana is usually toward the end of a fight, and I simply do not have the time to stand around and wait for the small return that it gives. I find it's better to use one's other resources.
#6 Feb 06 2009 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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Hymn of Hope sucks as a channel. I find I use my shadowfiend and my arcane torrent for mana regen now although as Disc with rapture I don't often run down. I don't have time to channel in a raid it's as simple as that although now I'm thinking are they going to nerf rapture?
#7 Feb 06 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm thinking are they going to nerf rapture?


Very unlikely. They're changing out-of-combat regeneration, which Rapture certainly is not. If anything I'd expect returns from Rapture to increase.
#8 Feb 06 2009 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hymn isn't bad, actually, you just need to know when to use it. In fights where I'm not going to need a double Shadowfiend (or not going to make it anyway) I generally use Arcane Torrent first, then Hymn of Hope, and when all else fails Shadowfiend. The trick with the spell is timing it.

Think about it - especially as a holy priest, how many times do you just stand there doing nothing to stick outside the 5SR rule? Also keep in mind that it's free; in the worst case you get 2% of your mana back and have to cancel it after that.

Sure, it's not great (for us personally even, 8% mana for entire raid is nothing to scoff at), but it definitely has it's uses here and there, and I don't mind having it.
#9 Feb 06 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I"ve played holy in TBC raiding, and shadow for leveling. I have to say I've never really depended on spirit for mana regen as I raided back when you could still downrank your spells. So mana never was much of an issue for me. I now am spec'd disc and am still learning the playstyle. I ended up with a crapton on Intellect just from random quest gear and some pvp gear i got on.

The change to spirit therefore won't really bother me too much. Learning the new disc spec on the other hand is just a crazy ride to fun....
#10 Feb 07 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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Sure, it's not great (for us personally even, 8% mana for entire raid is nothing to scoff at), but it definitely has it's uses here and there, and I don't mind having it.


Yeah but I'm a Drae, I used to have this wonderful, useful ability that restored more mana and did so without me having to stop doing essential things like, I don't know, healing...

It is now worse than not great, it's nearly useless, there are only 2 or 3 fights where it is practical to use it at all. And because you use it so rarely you don't have it handy and even forget to use it altogether. Also as I have mentioned before it used to be a disc spell so the shadow priest could use it without being knocked out of shadow form then spending more mana then they just got back to shift back in (exaggerated but you get my point).

Edit: Spelling and stupidity (there may still be some of the latter in there).

Edited, Feb 8th 2009 4:22am by SunSoarer
#11 Feb 08 2009 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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To be honest, I'm currently using it over Shadowfiend whenever I can. Why? Because it's harder to get off and Shadowfiend is generally a free potion anyway (whenever it doesn't bug). The spell is only useless when compared to the fiend - on itself it really isn't bad. It's just bad as a "hey I need mana back now" ability, but seeing as the mana gain is spread raidwide, I don't think that ever was Blizzard's intention anyway. And in the end, if you get it off, you basically increase the raid's longevity by 8%.

The reason it isn't used right now is because most fights are so easy you rarely need it, but depending on how much harder Ulduar is going to be, a good priest is going to be praised for knowing how to get a HoH off right.
#12 Feb 08 2009 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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So I'm going to ask the age old question (mostly cause I haven't done much reading about it... and the new changes).
Spirit vs Int vs MPx

I know they did some changes with the way Int effects Mana Regen a few patchs back (thinking it was for mages but don't really remember the detials), but the bottom line was still get Spirit. And I have been doing so as much as possiable (in order, Spirit, Int, MP5). I'm spec'd into disc for Divine Spirit (and Imp) and Spiritual Guidance on the Holy. Unbuffed I have 609 Regen and 1386 Spell Power.

I've been solo healing Heroics and doing well. Worst case in a boss fight I'll pot and Shadowfiend to make sure my mana stays up, more as a precaution than a necessity.

So, with 731 Spirit and 707 Int am I doing well?
I guess I ask for gear questions I'm thinking. Like, Moonshroud Robe with it's high Spirit or Valorous Robe of Faith with almost the same Int and -12 Spirit but 20 MP5 and it's 2 sockets. And is the set worth it? Loving the extra jump and -5% on the GHeal...

Anyway, thanks for the help.
#13 Feb 08 2009 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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guess I ask for gear questions I'm thinking. Like, Moonshroud Robe with it's high Spirit or Valorous Robe of Faith with almost the same Int and -12 Spirit but 20 MP5 and it's 2 sockets. And is the set worth it? Loving the extra jump and -5% on the GHeal...


If you fill the sockets (+16 spirit, +19 spell), you'll get more spirit, more spellpower, and have a shot at the set bonus too. Add the 20 mp5. All that at the cost of -1 intellect. This should be a no-brainer, really.

You could even put in a Luminous Monarch Topaz (+9 spell, +8 int) if that insane loss of -1 int was bothering you.

Edited, Feb 9th 2009 6:46am by Kanngarnix
#14 Feb 09 2009 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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I don't like these changes at all. Its not so straight forward for us to get outside the 5sr (Or is it? Perhaps I do more often than I realise), takes some planning and sometimes luck. Is this nerf more something to do with tree healers who can HoT-up and wait?

I guess the thing to stack yet even more of will be intellect, for greater returns from replenish.
#15 Feb 09 2009 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Is this nerf more something to do with tree healers who can HoT-up and wait?


No. Trees traditionally spend very little to no time outside 5SR because HoTs need continuously refreshed in addition to handing out the bigger chunks of health via Regrowth or Nourish, or possibly a Swiftmend. They generally have it easier with mana management because such a large portion of healing is done through very efficient HoTs rather than burst heals.

Those changes are specifically aimed at holy priests and their methods to stay outside 5SR for extra regeneration.
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