Ok, let me start by saying I consider myself a pretty good WoW player. I think most of the game is relatively easy compaired to a number of other games/genre of games I've played. Before you ask why I play, I simply find it rewarding completing large scale events and when I'm not doing that or something that leads to that I enjoy PVP immensly as it is quite the antipothesis of EZ-Mode WoW.
I say this because now, for the second night in Naxx in a row, I've been having trouble on the meters...
What Kind of trouble? Second or third place in Naxx. Why is that a problem? 1st Place keeps popping up as this other Arcane Mage. As close as this sounds to QQing or some form of un-bragging, I cannot for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm NOT trying to knock this kid down, I'm trying to bring myself up to his level.
I run Max raid rotation on fights that call for it, and ABx2 ABarr rotation on longer fights. I end 90% of my fights EXACTLY at OOM. I have optomized my Gear/Gems/Meta/Enchants to the best of my ability. I stick Damage through instant casts when forced to move. I use macros for burning cooldowns and I have a nice Keybind setup so that I'm never wasting time moving the mouse about. I roll with 20+ FPS in 25 Mans with graphics turned down at 120-400ms lag. As for keepign up casts - other than after an ABar, my castbar always has something in it. And yes, I always raid with Consumables.
So WHY, on Thaddius do I (Boneskul) only pull 6150DPS while he (Alshar) pulls 6520DPS. His gear doesn't even workout to be able to do that much - seriously look at it!! This is was a 5:30 fight, not some fluke, and I've got the upper hand on his gear in EVERY aspect of the Magery.
Please understand, this is NOT QQing. If hes pulling 6500dps then I should be pulling 7050 by shear numbers alone. I WANT to grow. I have been asking him questions constantly about his DPS firing rotation and it changes all the time - in fact he took my advice on the Full Burn and ABx2 Abar that I learned from Anobix. I've tried watching him on Dummies, tried reworking my rotation myself on dummies, tried switching out key pieces of Haste for more Crit or visa-versa in order to figure out what is going on!
The only answer I can come to is he is better than me at this game. Fine. But NOBODY I play with can identify where I need improvement other than straight gear. Does anyone have any ideas where I can improve... please?
Please =(
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When i first read the post i thought u would be at you know like 2500 dps and he would be at 5000 dps..
400 DPS isnt really that a big a difference, and it was most likely caused by RNG on the missile barrage procs.
400 DPS isnt really that a big a difference, and it was most likely caused by RNG on the missile barrage procs.
Not entirely the point.
I was down 100-400dps on multiple fights throughout Naxx tonight.
I'm not whining about it, I want to know how to do that!! Haha. Just going by gear/stats, technically it should at very best for him be visa-versa. For me to MATCH his DPS I feel embarassed - I feel like wasted gear. Not that my gear is anything close to the best, but its got a good jump on him.
We're either doing something completely different or he's better at one or more things that's adding up to his out-performance - which it is a COMPLETE out-performance somewhere in the 25% range.
My point: if this kid was to have my gear, he'd be bringing some crazy damage to raids. As part of the raid and an officer and Mage Leader, I feel like I'm not fulfilling my duties by not being up to par - which quite frankly I must not have been at all this time. This isn't about failing meters. This is a consistent and blatant example that I'm not doing something as good as I need to be.
Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 1:29am by tzsjynx
I was down 100-400dps on multiple fights throughout Naxx tonight.
I'm not whining about it, I want to know how to do that!! Haha. Just going by gear/stats, technically it should at very best for him be visa-versa. For me to MATCH his DPS I feel embarassed - I feel like wasted gear. Not that my gear is anything close to the best, but its got a good jump on him.
We're either doing something completely different or he's better at one or more things that's adding up to his out-performance - which it is a COMPLETE out-performance somewhere in the 25% range.
My point: if this kid was to have my gear, he'd be bringing some crazy damage to raids. As part of the raid and an officer and Mage Leader, I feel like I'm not fulfilling my duties by not being up to par - which quite frankly I must not have been at all this time. This isn't about failing meters. This is a consistent and blatant example that I'm not doing something as good as I need to be.
Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 1:29am by tzsjynx
First, it looks like you have no points in arcane stability. That will slow down your dps when you're taking splash damage. This was likely the main factor.
Next, I haven't really paid enough attention to be able to say this with confidence but there may be an imbalance in the number of people with each charge, and thus, the damage buff for each group on the sides of Thad is different. Also, perhaps his focus magic target was getting more crits in. Last, it could be due to randomness in the game although it seems unlikely on a somewhat longer fight like that.
Next, I haven't really paid enough attention to be able to say this with confidence but there may be an imbalance in the number of people with each charge, and thus, the damage buff for each group on the sides of Thad is different. Also, perhaps his focus magic target was getting more crits in. Last, it could be due to randomness in the game although it seems unlikely on a somewhat longer fight like that.
Petrazure wrote:
First, it looks like you have no points in arcane stability. That will slow down your dps when you're taking splash damage. This was likely the main factor.
This will indeed be a huge factor in a number of fights.
-Are you using a mod such as Quartz to show when to start your next spell? At your latency, it can be a huge deal.
-Is the other mage receiving any kind of assistance that allows him to use a more aggressive burn rotation than you? Specifically, has he made a deal with any moonkins to get Innervates in exchange for Focus Magic? Also, what kind of rotation you using, and what is he using?
Really, without a WWS, we probably cannot give you optimal advice. If you're not willing to share a WWS with everyone(I can understand, some guilds might not like you sharing that kind of thing), then I'd highly recommend PMing one to Anobix to look at. He knows Arcane a lot better than I do and might be able to see things I would miss, so he's likely the best choice.
As Pold said, we can hypothesize all day about what could be causing a problem, but without seeing a WWS (or similar) I can't tell you. Chances are he got more casts off, got more mbarr procs, faster trinket procs, a buff that you didn't get, or has lower latency. I am in a similar situation with another mage in my guild, he always rocks the meters and 8/10 times I am behind him, even when we are similarly geared or even me being better geared. Hell one time (in BT) he came in as frost pvp and lead the meters for a couple of fights (while I was 2/48/11 I am guessing). So it may come down to "skill", but there are many system problems that can also be caused, as stated before, any lag spikes, missed procs, fps problems, etc. And as for thaddius, he may have been lucky enough to not have to move as many times as you did, or maybe the side he was always on had full people and you were stuck with a dead window-licker a couple of times.
Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 8:26am by Anobix
Edited, Feb 3rd 2009 8:26am by Anobix
Thanks for the advice guys - much more than I have gotten before.
I will try Quartz again - I have used it in the past and found it not really any better than Pitbull + DoTTimers but lets see!
Going to stick 3 points into Arcane Stability.
Funny situation, we actually both have Resto druids that feed each of us Innervates. Since we benefit by far more than any other class/build, they think its funny to watch us try to outburn their incoming Innervate mana. The one thing in Mana regen that may be different is I'm using Nightmare potions, and he may be using regular mana potions - this was not an issue for Thaddius though as I burned mine right before we jumped.
We traded Focus Magic last night because some warrior had been talking smack about Arcane damage all day. Was funny to be top 1 and 2 on a number of fights while he was down in the 8-10s.
As for Latency, I figured 120ms in 25 man Naxx wasn't so bad - I don't usually have notable latency issues. It definitely adds up, don't get me wrong, but I figure most have that much. All I can say is I will practice timing my spells better, even if the difference is a millisecond or two it will probably show up on the charts.
I have not been responsible for WWS in the past, and I do not even have an account. I will set it up for the fight tonight and let you guys know. Thanks for all the help! =)
I will try Quartz again - I have used it in the past and found it not really any better than Pitbull + DoTTimers but lets see!
Going to stick 3 points into Arcane Stability.
Funny situation, we actually both have Resto druids that feed each of us Innervates. Since we benefit by far more than any other class/build, they think its funny to watch us try to outburn their incoming Innervate mana. The one thing in Mana regen that may be different is I'm using Nightmare potions, and he may be using regular mana potions - this was not an issue for Thaddius though as I burned mine right before we jumped.
We traded Focus Magic last night because some warrior had been talking smack about Arcane damage all day. Was funny to be top 1 and 2 on a number of fights while he was down in the 8-10s.
As for Latency, I figured 120ms in 25 man Naxx wasn't so bad - I don't usually have notable latency issues. It definitely adds up, don't get me wrong, but I figure most have that much. All I can say is I will practice timing my spells better, even if the difference is a millisecond or two it will probably show up on the charts.
I have not been responsible for WWS in the past, and I do not even have an account. I will set it up for the fight tonight and let you guys know. Thanks for all the help! =)
also wanted to ask that you are using abarr after every missile barrage proc as well, correct? If your mana can sustain it 3AB Abarr is better, but obviously costs more. All of the major rotations are either on the stratfu website or on EJ (both of which are linked in the arcane thread).
I use Abarr after MBarr only on light cycles. On "super" heavy rotations where we're looking to burn through enrages or whatever I don't even use Abarr. I was under the impression that the highest DPS rotation available excluded it? I'll check again.
I believe you should always use it as it gives another opportunity to proc mbam (which is your highest dps spell).
Depending on the situation, though, ABar is just a wasted GCD.
Its powerful in ABlastx3 ABarr only because of the stack, acting as a second ABlast3 for the cost of an ABlast 2. The problem obviously being that it resets the cycle which can drastically lower DPS.
I consider Missiles a Larger hit to use up the Blast3 debuff, and therefor a much better use of the increased damage. Mana not being an issue at all, at the very end of fights I'll ABlast through a MBarr proc simply so I don't have to restack, and try to end the fight while that MBarr is going off.
Starting a fresh Naxx tonight, and I'll have WWS Logs ready =)
Its powerful in ABlastx3 ABarr only because of the stack, acting as a second ABlast3 for the cost of an ABlast 2. The problem obviously being that it resets the cycle which can drastically lower DPS.
I consider Missiles a Larger hit to use up the Blast3 debuff, and therefor a much better use of the increased damage. Mana not being an issue at all, at the very end of fights I'll ABlast through a MBarr proc simply so I don't have to restack, and try to end the fight while that MBarr is going off.
Starting a fresh Naxx tonight, and I'll have WWS Logs ready =)
tzsjynx wrote:
Depending on the situation, though, ABar is just a wasted GCD.
Its powerful in ABlastx3 ABarr only because of the stack, acting as a second ABlast3 for the cost of an ABlast 2. The problem obviously being that it resets the cycle which can drastically lower DPS.
I consider Missiles a Larger hit to use up the Blast3 debuff, and therefor a much better use of the increased damage. Mana not being an issue at all, at the very end of fights I'll ABlast through a MBarr proc simply so I don't have to restack, and try to end the fight while that MBarr is going off.
Starting a fresh Naxx tonight, and I'll have WWS Logs ready =)
Its powerful in ABlastx3 ABarr only because of the stack, acting as a second ABlast3 for the cost of an ABlast 2. The problem obviously being that it resets the cycle which can drastically lower DPS.
I consider Missiles a Larger hit to use up the Blast3 debuff, and therefor a much better use of the increased damage. Mana not being an issue at all, at the very end of fights I'll ABlast through a MBarr proc simply so I don't have to restack, and try to end the fight while that MBarr is going off.
Starting a fresh Naxx tonight, and I'll have WWS Logs ready =)
According to Manly and the people that do all of the math:
Quote:
Rotations
General principles:
-Only cast mbarr once you reach the maximal number of stacks you were reaching for. This is because AM is rather inefficient, however, it deals a lot of total_damage. As such, you want to apply the biggest ab_buff multiplier to it to make it worthwhile. This also means that generally going for mbarr procs as soon as it pops will tend to be suboptimal.
-Always follow mbarr with abarr unless going for the extreme mana efficient cycles.
-If you need a high mana conservation cycle (ex: evocation was interrupted), going for 1 less AB max stack will save a tremendous amount of mana.
-AB spam until mbarr proc is almost 2x more mana intensive than the next rotation.
General principles:
-Only cast mbarr once you reach the maximal number of stacks you were reaching for. This is because AM is rather inefficient, however, it deals a lot of total_damage. As such, you want to apply the biggest ab_buff multiplier to it to make it worthwhile. This also means that generally going for mbarr procs as soon as it pops will tend to be suboptimal.
-Always follow mbarr with abarr unless going for the extreme mana efficient cycles.
-If you need a high mana conservation cycle (ex: evocation was interrupted), going for 1 less AB max stack will save a tremendous amount of mana.
-AB spam until mbarr proc is almost 2x more mana intensive than the next rotation.
Ok thanks Anobix. Was doing what you said anyways tonight.
For SOME reason we stopped at 9 Server Time... /cry... damn kids or something but like 9 people had to go.
I started Combat Log late because we started early so I was scrambling to get stuff ready before raid and forgot to get Anub in on the log.
If it'll help you all, though, here is the Raid from tonight -- however short and sad it is. I feel extremely embarassed posting that, as last week we knocked out all of Spider and Military and most of Construct without significant deaths - and tonight was Wipe city.
For SOME reason we stopped at 9 Server Time... /cry... damn kids or something but like 9 people had to go.
I started Combat Log late because we started early so I was scrambling to get stuff ready before raid and forgot to get Anub in on the log.
If it'll help you all, though, here is the Raid from tonight -- however short and sad it is. I feel extremely embarassed posting that, as last week we knocked out all of Spider and Military and most of Construct without significant deaths - and tonight was Wipe city.
significantly better than what you were saying before. patchwerk attempt was a bit low, but I will wait for a full kill. overall top 3 is pretty great. I've been getting beat by hunters tonight, but overall been doing quite well. will post my wws in a couple of hours when we finish naxx.
not saying this just for the sake of it nor does it really have a direct relation to dps but @20fps in a raid your seeing stuff way too slowly. My rig isn't the best out there but at any rate you should be aiming to keep 40 fps at the least.
I played for quite a while under 30fps, even raiding and all that sort of thing. When I jumped to my new rig (almost 2 years ago) the difference really told. I react faster to almost everything. Not to mention that arcane is a very reactive spec.
I played for quite a while under 30fps, even raiding and all that sort of thing. When I jumped to my new rig (almost 2 years ago) the difference really told. I react faster to almost everything. Not to mention that arcane is a very reactive spec.
http://wowwebstats.com/wvonymrinzgqk
From tonight.
From tonight.
Damn man, Hunters doing some nice damage Anobix.
My damage did come up a tad, not sure why. I have been very diligent with my rotations, and have been starting combat literally the millisecond it is safe (or sometimes before then with MI).
I turned my graphics down even further, but I think the actual returns from this do not come from my graphics card performing 'better' but some form of latency buffer that WoW decides to engage when higher settings are administered which literally adds time between when you hit the keyboard and when it reacts.
About FPS::
My FPS are slower because I play WOW on a 32" LCD. But, having had years of experience in gaming, I can tell you that you don't really need much more. My Rig can handle 87-90FPS with Mid-High settings if I was playing with my 19 incher. This drastically goes down depending on the amount of particle effects occurring and my resolution - but its a pretty steady ride.
With my current setup, I only really get up to about 40FPS, 30FPS sustained in 25Man Naxx with dips down depending on what kind of crazy effects are going on. I don't really consider this bad? I can link you my Rig specs if you want... But I assure you I play some of the most graphic-intensive games as well as some of the most reaction-required First Person Shooters out there.
While obviously the human brain doesn't work the same as a computer, eyesight is clocked at 4-52FPS depending on the size of your pupil which for most intents and purposes is derived from the amount of light your eyes are receiving. Movies are shot at 24FPS, and TV programs at 29.97 (yes even HD - although not UHD.) If my game is playing as fast as my TVs going I don't see the problem~
Thinkin' its not a big deal.
My damage did come up a tad, not sure why. I have been very diligent with my rotations, and have been starting combat literally the millisecond it is safe (or sometimes before then with MI).
I turned my graphics down even further, but I think the actual returns from this do not come from my graphics card performing 'better' but some form of latency buffer that WoW decides to engage when higher settings are administered which literally adds time between when you hit the keyboard and when it reacts.
About FPS::
My FPS are slower because I play WOW on a 32" LCD. But, having had years of experience in gaming, I can tell you that you don't really need much more. My Rig can handle 87-90FPS with Mid-High settings if I was playing with my 19 incher. This drastically goes down depending on the amount of particle effects occurring and my resolution - but its a pretty steady ride.
With my current setup, I only really get up to about 40FPS, 30FPS sustained in 25Man Naxx with dips down depending on what kind of crazy effects are going on. I don't really consider this bad? I can link you my Rig specs if you want... But I assure you I play some of the most graphic-intensive games as well as some of the most reaction-required First Person Shooters out there.
While obviously the human brain doesn't work the same as a computer, eyesight is clocked at 4-52FPS depending on the size of your pupil which for most intents and purposes is derived from the amount of light your eyes are receiving. Movies are shot at 24FPS, and TV programs at 29.97 (yes even HD - although not UHD.) If my game is playing as fast as my TVs going I don't see the problem~
Thinkin' its not a big deal.
I currently play at around 30-45fps depending on the situation at 1920x1200 on my 24'' monitor, I can understand that it gives less fps, but I don't think it would make that HUGE of a difference to be playing at 50 or whatever fps.
I understand, thing is my latency is not stable given my position and that the Oceanic servers are stationed on the wrong side of the globe for me just makes it worse. Every now and then I get kicked out of the server because WoW would fill up the whole pipeline with data.
If I was playing at -20fps bad stuff happens to me. System lag + not so good latency = really laggy WoW.
If I was playing at -20fps bad stuff happens to me. System lag + not so good latency = really laggy WoW.
Quote:
System lag + not so good latency = really laggy WoW.
Haha most definatly!!! You'd think that one prevailing lag would mask the other... but oh no... they just compound themselves so horribly well... BLAH!!
Heres the Second part of that Naxx Raid.
Again we called early so we could start fresh with Saph/KZ since we had just lost our Flask buff and we figured people would need to go soon.
All in all it was a good run, although I was constantly dealing with problems from a Guildie (one of the Warlocks) that resulted in a lot of mid-fight nonsense that seriously gimped my DPS in at the end of the Plague Quarter.
I know theres lots of improvement to be done, so even on those sloppy fights like Loatheb if you find anything wrong with my play lemme know. I'm still not 100% satisfied with my ability.
Thanks =D
Again we called early so we could start fresh with Saph/KZ since we had just lost our Flask buff and we figured people would need to go soon.
All in all it was a good run, although I was constantly dealing with problems from a Guildie (one of the Warlocks) that resulted in a lot of mid-fight nonsense that seriously gimped my DPS in at the end of the Plague Quarter.
I know theres lots of improvement to be done, so even on those sloppy fights like Loatheb if you find anything wrong with my play lemme know. I'm still not 100% satisfied with my ability.
Thanks =D
Scholar
29 posts
Hey there
I would like to add this:
Try to look this video
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=100281
The most importent thingy for higher dps for u Tzsjynx what i believe is u hitting the arcane missiles when the Missiles Barrage is up so rotations for u need look out for this randomly buffed spell/haste dot so for this u can use addon:
power aura classic so u put in missiles barrage and then a sound so u just hear it arrives and when u do u hit the arcane missiles spell and then just after u hit arcane barrage so missiles barrgage may pop again .....etc.
GL with this
Troldeerind
I would like to add this:
Try to look this video
http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=100281
The most importent thingy for higher dps for u Tzsjynx what i believe is u hitting the arcane missiles when the Missiles Barrage is up so rotations for u need look out for this randomly buffed spell/haste dot so for this u can use addon:
power aura classic so u put in missiles barrage and then a sound so u just hear it arrives and when u do u hit the arcane missiles spell and then just after u hit arcane barrage so missiles barrgage may pop again .....etc.
GL with this
Troldeerind
Thanks for the advice - the video was great.
Don't 100% comprehend your grammer - hard to tell where you're meaning to pause, haha =) - but I think you were trying to tell me about Missile Barrage procs.
I do try to lookout for MBAM, as a ABx3 MBAM is a TON of damage! I was also earlier under the impression that ABar was to be cut out from underneath a MBAM after they fixed the clipping - and have only just recently realized that its important to keep it thrown in still to help with MB procs =)
The most intriguing thing from this video was how the chick mentioned that you "may" finish a fight with straight AB Spam (which I always do) but that I probably had missed out on using that strategy before hand to account for the extra mana. This seems to make sense and I will adjust my Rotations near the end of fights to better avoid AB spam solely at the end of the battle and spread it throughout the last 10 percent when Trinket pops and Arcane power become available =)
Arcane is so much fun!!
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 4:00am by tzsjynx
Don't 100% comprehend your grammer - hard to tell where you're meaning to pause, haha =) - but I think you were trying to tell me about Missile Barrage procs.
I do try to lookout for MBAM, as a ABx3 MBAM is a TON of damage! I was also earlier under the impression that ABar was to be cut out from underneath a MBAM after they fixed the clipping - and have only just recently realized that its important to keep it thrown in still to help with MB procs =)
The most intriguing thing from this video was how the chick mentioned that you "may" finish a fight with straight AB Spam (which I always do) but that I probably had missed out on using that strategy before hand to account for the extra mana. This seems to make sense and I will adjust my Rotations near the end of fights to better avoid AB spam solely at the end of the battle and spread it throughout the last 10 percent when Trinket pops and Arcane power become available =)
Arcane is so much fun!!
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 4:00am by tzsjynx
Scholar
29 posts
ohh and btw dont know u spec but i use 60/3/8
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/mage/talents.html?tal=23400523110033015032310250532103000000000000000000000000002030030000000000000000000000
have fun all :)
http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/basics/talents/mage/talents.html?tal=23400523110033015032310250532103000000000000000000000000002030030000000000000000000000
have fun all :)
Well done tzs, you can tell where you are improving and picking up the rotation better.
Here is our Sarth2d (hard mode - Shadron/Vesperon left up) kill WWS.
http://wowwebstats.com/bhaivhpo2xbem?s=bosses&m
Damn warlock beat me by 600dmg on the kill! I knew I should have AoEd more... lol
@ Trold,
That spec is not too bad, but you are giving up a pretty big dps increase by giving up icy veins, and for that matter a hasted/uninterrupted evocation if timed correctly as well.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 8:50am by Anobix
Here is our Sarth2d (hard mode - Shadron/Vesperon left up) kill WWS.
http://wowwebstats.com/bhaivhpo2xbem?s=bosses&m
Damn warlock beat me by 600dmg on the kill! I knew I should have AoEd more... lol
@ Trold,
That spec is not too bad, but you are giving up a pretty big dps increase by giving up icy veins, and for that matter a hasted/uninterrupted evocation if timed correctly as well.
Edited, Feb 6th 2009 8:50am by Anobix
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