My main is a Prot Paladin. I did some raiding with him near the end of TBC, and he has been 80 for a while now and done lots of heroics and some raiding in WotLK. I don't claim to know everything about Prot Paladins, but I know a lot.
I rolled a new Paladin to keep as my Ret Paladin when I want to go along on guild runs of heroics and such and help train other tanks and whatnot. I know that I COULD respec my main, but I wanted to level a new toon and I love Paladins, so I started from scratch.
I was in Blood Furnace the other day and our group consisted of a Prot Paladin, 3 Ret Paladins, and an Enhance Shaman (who had about 500 spellpower and healed beautifully).
On one of the pulls, the Prot Paladin uses Hand of Reckoning but pulls a total of 3 mobs. He also didn't bother using avenger's shield but simply waited for the 3 mobs to hit his consecrate.
End result? Even after the mobs hit his consecrate, he had some threat on one mob, but almost zero threat on the other two mobs. He hadn't tanked much and failed to mark the targets. I paid attention and was hitting his main target that he had a ton of threat on, but one of the other Rets almost died because he attacked one of the mobs that had almost no threat from the tank. Through a combination of tricks and some good healing we survived.
I then gave the tank some suggestions as far as marking targets and thinking about building threat more quickly on multiple targets by either opening with AS on multiple targets or using AS as soon as he realized that multiple targets were incoming.
It seems to me that the new taunt could be somewhat hard to manage for a brand new tank. It is very handy for pulling a single target, but if that target has friends nearby, they are probably going to come as well, so it is very important to build threat on all of them in a group situation. If you are soloing, it doesn't matter so it might take a while to learn.
I also ended up teaching this new tank about line of sight pulls after we wiped on a pull where he threw his shield and then charged into a room that had casters....
I guess it is still good to do some BC dungeons while leveling up! Even though most WotLK dungeons are "Pull, AoE-Fest, Kill", it is nice to still have some training on stuff where marking targets, CC, and LoS are needed.
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I've never even considered using Hand of Reckoning to pull with. It's just a whole pile of "meh" in that department. I think my HoR is good for about 50-80 damage, and when it's used to pull, that's all you get in terms of threat is the threat from damage + threat multipliers. Pretty weaksauce pulling option.
For me, HoR was a godsend for fights like Four Horsemen, Sarth + drakes and any other fight where I found myself needing to taunt mobs that may or may not be targeting a tank that has a mob that I really don't want (Nerubian adds in Kel'Thuzad third phase is another great example). I know, I know...Righteous Defense was supposedly changed to allow it to function as a single target taunt but for whatever reason, every time I tried using it as such all I got was a blue hand cursor prompting me to target a player.
I would rather body pull -> Hammer of the Righteous than pull with Hand of Reckoning. HoR would no doubt be fantastic for lower levels when it's your best (see also: only) real option to pull from any sort of range. As a prot paladin of a high enough level to get Avenger's Shield, I don't see HoR as a pulling tool...at all.
For me, HoR was a godsend for fights like Four Horsemen, Sarth + drakes and any other fight where I found myself needing to taunt mobs that may or may not be targeting a tank that has a mob that I really don't want (Nerubian adds in Kel'Thuzad third phase is another great example). I know, I know...Righteous Defense was supposedly changed to allow it to function as a single target taunt but for whatever reason, every time I tried using it as such all I got was a blue hand cursor prompting me to target a player.
I would rather body pull -> Hammer of the Righteous than pull with Hand of Reckoning. HoR would no doubt be fantastic for lower levels when it's your best (see also: only) real option to pull from any sort of range. As a prot paladin of a high enough level to get Avenger's Shield, I don't see HoR as a pulling tool...at all.
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but one of the other Rets almost died because he attacked one of the mobs that had almost no threat from the tank.
i woulda spent more time teaching the Rets how to play. granted the tank might not of been a premium choice, but it seems like he did ok considering.
3 Rets wouldn't even need a tank(or healing) in BF. knowing when to HoJ, where to Consecrate, and who to Repentence is key to being a good Ret in those dungeons. marking is nice, but experienced CC/dps know who to stop and who to drop without skulls, moons, and nipples.
anyway, i hope your tanktorial didn't go unappreciated and hope you enjoy your new life as Ret.
There are some instances where you want to pull with the taunt. The round room early in UK is an example where you have 3-4 mobs that will pull together but are too far apart to AS. I used to body pull but now I can taunt and when the mobs are together, AS tags them all.
I'm no raid tank, but I'm pretty good in heroics. Give all new TBC tanks a big break. I remember the first time I tanked. It was in VC. Then, 20 some lvls later I ran SM, then 20 lvls later I hit Outland...
Wow the surprise when I suddenly learned that tanking wasn't just standing there and hitting consecrate. Pull order and CC mattered. Agro management was suddenly important. (This was all in TBC days, so no new talents yet...)
After about 2 weeks of fooling around and ******** up, it sorta clicked and things have been getting smoother every time since.
With respect to the new taunt:
I think it's mostly an in-combat tool, meant to pull agro or pick up a new add. While solo it might be a great pulling tool, in group play it's not really the best pull tactic we have...
Just IMO
Wow the surprise when I suddenly learned that tanking wasn't just standing there and hitting consecrate. Pull order and CC mattered. Agro management was suddenly important. (This was all in TBC days, so no new talents yet...)
After about 2 weeks of fooling around and ******** up, it sorta clicked and things have been getting smoother every time since.
With respect to the new taunt:
I think it's mostly an in-combat tool, meant to pull agro or pick up a new add. While solo it might be a great pulling tool, in group play it's not really the best pull tactic we have...
Just IMO
I agree with tommyguns, the tanks pull wasn't so much the problem, it was the ret paladin attacking the wrong mob. Remember at 70 warriors using their gun to pull into a thunderclap? At least consecrate will hold a fair bit more threat then thunderclap spam. And most druids still use a fairie fire into some swipes. Yeah maybe if the tank used AS he could have held threat while the ret paladin paid no attention whatsoever to the kill target, but it's not good practice.
Give the tank a break, he's leveling and learning.
Give the tank a break, he's leveling and learning.
Scholar
32 posts
My main is also a Prot Pally. I think the new taunt is a very nice addition to the tools that we have. RD, while a very nice tool, doesn't quite fit all the bills. For example, when I was running ZA as OT. The MT pulled two of the bears on the steps. There was not an easy way for me to pull one of the bears off him. If I used RD, I pulled both.
I have not had the opportunity to raid in wrath yet, but I have done some heroics. The only time I have needed to use the new taunt was if an overzealous dps starting attacking the wrong marked target. It is a quick and easy way to pull them back to me. Especially if RD is on cooldown because a different overzealous dps attacked another target, or a DK "accindentally" hit their taunt.
I do agree with the OP that it is a terrible method to group pull. AS, HS, Cons, no worries. Also, I think it was quite admirable that he offered tanking advice to the novice tank. Mentors are a dying breed. The standard "trial by fire" method, while most likely teaching what NOT to do, does not always teach what to do. A few kind encouraging suggestions go a long way.
I have not had the opportunity to raid in wrath yet, but I have done some heroics. The only time I have needed to use the new taunt was if an overzealous dps starting attacking the wrong marked target. It is a quick and easy way to pull them back to me. Especially if RD is on cooldown because a different overzealous dps attacked another target, or a DK "accindentally" hit their taunt.
I do agree with the OP that it is a terrible method to group pull. AS, HS, Cons, no worries. Also, I think it was quite admirable that he offered tanking advice to the novice tank. Mentors are a dying breed. The standard "trial by fire" method, while most likely teaching what NOT to do, does not always teach what to do. A few kind encouraging suggestions go a long way.
11 posts
I personally pull with HoR a lot. My prot pally main always seems to have AS on CD so instead of risking body pulling I use HoR.
What about those pulls when the mobs are close enough to eachother to pull as a group but AS only bounces once if that? HoR they come running they bunch up AS and you get the full use. Safer pull imo
I remember the pull before the first boss in MGT. Two mobs standing there and I threw my shield. Pulled the boss because he was JUST close enough. Would of been nice to have HoR for the initial pull.
So a pull didnt go according to plan, it happens. It's great you took the time to teach him about LOS and to use AS but telling people to "manage" our new taunt by not using it to its full potential doesn't make sense.
What about those pulls when the mobs are close enough to eachother to pull as a group but AS only bounces once if that? HoR they come running they bunch up AS and you get the full use. Safer pull imo
I remember the pull before the first boss in MGT. Two mobs standing there and I threw my shield. Pulled the boss because he was JUST close enough. Would of been nice to have HoR for the initial pull.
So a pull didnt go according to plan, it happens. It's great you took the time to teach him about LOS and to use AS but telling people to "manage" our new taunt by not using it to its full potential doesn't make sense.
AureliusSir wrote:
Pretty weaksauce pulling option.
Made me chuckle. Had to post.
This isn't going to be an issue if the change to exorcism goes live. Pull with exor, then AS, save taunts for threat issues or grabbing the next pat, etc.
The whole, having 0 threat on anything but the first mob will still be an issue, which is what the OP was mostly complaining about.
It's something that I hate while playing my Druid. Especially from Paladins who should have a crapshpiel of threat front-loaded on three targets before anyone else even starts swinging/shooting/casting. Between AS and Hammer, losing mobs right at the pull is just unacceptable.
While I do view taunt-pulling as viable in some cases, as described -- it's only effective if it's used to set up your ACTUAL abilities. In the OPs case, the real problem was that his tank DIDNT make use of those abilities at all.
It's something that I hate while playing my Druid. Especially from Paladins who should have a crapshpiel of threat front-loaded on three targets before anyone else even starts swinging/shooting/casting. Between AS and Hammer, losing mobs right at the pull is just unacceptable.
While I do view taunt-pulling as viable in some cases, as described -- it's only effective if it's used to set up your ACTUAL abilities. In the OPs case, the real problem was that his tank DIDNT make use of those abilities at all.
Assuming the guy was at least Lv60, where was his Hammer of the Righteous?
Well, he should have at least skull'd the first kill target, but honestly... if he would have pulled (even if his Avenger's was on cooldown) with HoR, let them hit consecrate, the first Hammer of Righteous would have given him solid enough threat.
And why weren't the DPS using /assist hotkeys/macros/etc?
Did he have Righteous Fury up? Somehow I fail to see how he should lose aggro after a tick or two of Consecrate. I know sometimes I forget RF the first fight or two because I'm not used to using it (I normally don't while I'm solo).
I see this as being a little of everyone's fault, except the healer.
1). The paladin (if Lv60+) should have had Hammer of the Righteous. It is such a core tanking ability, if he was speccing to tank he should have had it. If he wasn't 60 what the hell was he doing in BF?
2). He should have used Avenger's Shield to pull (unless it was on cooldown).
3). He should have skull'd the main kill target at the very least.
4). The DPS should have been using /assist, especially if they knew the tank wasn't marking.
5). The DPS should wait a second or two after the mobs reach Consecrate before opening up a can of whup on the mobs. Remember guys, TEAM EFFORT.
Now, as far as Hand of Reckoning goes, I'd only use it to pull if Avenger's was on Cooldown. I would probably take the time to warn people ahead of time if I'm going to use it, or tell them at the beginning of the instance, that if I use it to pull (they know what Avenger's looks like by now, so they should know if I Don't use it), to wait a second or two to let me lay down a Consecrate, and a Hammer before they go apesh*t. If they do just that, then nobody but me is ever going to get hit that whole fight.
Edited, Feb 7th 2009 9:26am by Zariamnk
Edited, Feb 7th 2009 9:27am by Zariamnk
Well, he should have at least skull'd the first kill target, but honestly... if he would have pulled (even if his Avenger's was on cooldown) with HoR, let them hit consecrate, the first Hammer of Righteous would have given him solid enough threat.
And why weren't the DPS using /assist hotkeys/macros/etc?
Did he have Righteous Fury up? Somehow I fail to see how he should lose aggro after a tick or two of Consecrate. I know sometimes I forget RF the first fight or two because I'm not used to using it (I normally don't while I'm solo).
I see this as being a little of everyone's fault, except the healer.
1). The paladin (if Lv60+) should have had Hammer of the Righteous. It is such a core tanking ability, if he was speccing to tank he should have had it. If he wasn't 60 what the hell was he doing in BF?
2). He should have used Avenger's Shield to pull (unless it was on cooldown).
3). He should have skull'd the main kill target at the very least.
4). The DPS should have been using /assist, especially if they knew the tank wasn't marking.
5). The DPS should wait a second or two after the mobs reach Consecrate before opening up a can of whup on the mobs. Remember guys, TEAM EFFORT.
Now, as far as Hand of Reckoning goes, I'd only use it to pull if Avenger's was on Cooldown. I would probably take the time to warn people ahead of time if I'm going to use it, or tell them at the beginning of the instance, that if I use it to pull (they know what Avenger's looks like by now, so they should know if I Don't use it), to wait a second or two to let me lay down a Consecrate, and a Hammer before they go apesh*t. If they do just that, then nobody but me is ever going to get hit that whole fight.
Edited, Feb 7th 2009 9:26am by Zariamnk
Edited, Feb 7th 2009 9:27am by Zariamnk
Scholar
21 posts
I personally find the new taunt pretty useful incase you get an add or grabbing a stray mob going for a clothie.
Gerrwyn wrote:
I personally find the new taunt pretty useful incase you get an add or grabbing a stray mob going for a clothie.
Oh, sure! No doubt about it, it is very handy, if used right.
I think the main point behind the OP's post, is that it should never be the primary pull choice for a prot paladin in groups, unless there is a situation where you DON'T want the mob to have a movement slowing effect.
There are a few times, patrols and such, where I DON'T want the mob moving slower as I pull him, but otherwise, Avenger's Shield is always better, unless it is on cooldown, or you are trying to be careful with the pulls.
I find sometimes Avenger's Shield's range is greater than the aggro/link radius, so I end up bringing more mobs than I wanted to, because of the shield bouncing the wrong way and bringing something that wouldn't have normally come otherwise.
Not having raid marks key bound is the sign of a lazy tank in my opinion.
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Not having raid marks key bound is the sign of a lazy tank in my opinion.
Not having raid marks easily accessable is the sign of a lazy tank, raid leader, or raid assist. While my number pad is assigned to raid-marking with key-binds, lots of people use addons to create a graphical click-to-set interface. And that's fine too.
Losie wrote:
Quote:
Not having raid marks key bound is the sign of a lazy tank in my opinion.
Not having raid marks easily accessable is the sign of a lazy tank, raid leader, or raid assist. While my number pad is assigned to raid-marking with key-binds, lots of people use addons to create a graphical click-to-set interface. And that's fine too.
Quick Mark happens to be my favorite, a convenient little window with the icons, I just tab and click, pretty easy.
As has been said before, the problem wasnt the tank, it was the Ret paladins. Although the tank could use pointers.
I, retri specced, only use hand of reckoning if I see a mob charging at the healer or if I want to pull a patrol without the tank having to charge in.
I find that it is rarely the tanks fault when a run goes wrong, it is usually caused by the DPS attacking the wrong target. The tank should always be in a position to mark mobs and should make damned sure everyone knows what these marks mean.
Frankly I am amazed at the group you had for Blood Furnace... I have come to Outland for my first time and all I can find is Deathknights who claim to be tanks. I did a Blood Furnace run with 3 Death Knights and another retribution Paladin. I had 0 items to boost int and they expected me to heal them through the instance. And try getting decent AoE damage when the Deathknights spend their time force-choking mobs from opposite corners of the room while their ghoul runs away to aggro everything else in the room. They also seemed to love hitting mobs I had sleeped woth Repentance... And apparently a Skull means "ignore this mob" and a red cross means "force choke me now"
I, retri specced, only use hand of reckoning if I see a mob charging at the healer or if I want to pull a patrol without the tank having to charge in.
I find that it is rarely the tanks fault when a run goes wrong, it is usually caused by the DPS attacking the wrong target. The tank should always be in a position to mark mobs and should make damned sure everyone knows what these marks mean.
Frankly I am amazed at the group you had for Blood Furnace... I have come to Outland for my first time and all I can find is Deathknights who claim to be tanks. I did a Blood Furnace run with 3 Death Knights and another retribution Paladin. I had 0 items to boost int and they expected me to heal them through the instance. And try getting decent AoE damage when the Deathknights spend their time force-choking mobs from opposite corners of the room while their ghoul runs away to aggro everything else in the room. They also seemed to love hitting mobs I had sleeped woth Repentance... And apparently a Skull means "ignore this mob" and a red cross means "force choke me now"
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