What's the expertise cap for parry?
And how important is it to reach it?
As you can see from my armory signature, there isn't that much room for my character to grow gear wise at this point. How important is it to regem to meet this cap?
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Expertise (tanking question)?Follow
The dodge and parry chances for boss-mobs is currently disputed, but combat parses tend to point at around 6.5% dodge and as high as 12-15% parry.
Assuming 6.5% dodge and 15% parry, you would need 26 expertise (about 214 expertise rating at level 80) to negate a boss' dodge chance, and 60 expertise (about 492 expertise rating at level 80) to prevent parries.
Since you're already at 30 Expertise(7.5% chance to not be dodged/parried), you have already pushed dodge off the chart. You won't realistically be expected to reach the 60 expertise cap without gimping yourself in other areas. I would say that as far as gemming, I wouldn't go any higher on expertise besides what comes naturally unless you notice from your recount that you are getting parried excessively still. As long as your TPS is maintaining you should be fine there having pushed dodge off the chart.
As far as hit rating. 8% is the magic goal. You're close with 6.74%. Again you have to take into account your HP and avoidance/mitigation and I'd say your pretty much where you need to be as far as hit rating. Getting that last 1.26% shouldn't be as big an goal for you as pushing your Health and Avoidance.
That's my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Assuming 6.5% dodge and 15% parry, you would need 26 expertise (about 214 expertise rating at level 80) to negate a boss' dodge chance, and 60 expertise (about 492 expertise rating at level 80) to prevent parries.
Since you're already at 30 Expertise(7.5% chance to not be dodged/parried), you have already pushed dodge off the chart. You won't realistically be expected to reach the 60 expertise cap without gimping yourself in other areas. I would say that as far as gemming, I wouldn't go any higher on expertise besides what comes naturally unless you notice from your recount that you are getting parried excessively still. As long as your TPS is maintaining you should be fine there having pushed dodge off the chart.
As far as hit rating. 8% is the magic goal. You're close with 6.74%. Again you have to take into account your HP and avoidance/mitigation and I'd say your pretty much where you need to be as far as hit rating. Getting that last 1.26% shouldn't be as big an goal for you as pushing your Health and Avoidance.
That's my humble opinion. Hope it helps.
Seconded.
It's unrealistic to cap for parry and it's generally considered a wise investment at the point you're at to invest in stam and avoidance.
Cheers!
It's unrealistic to cap for parry and it's generally considered a wise investment at the point you're at to invest in stam and avoidance.
Cheers!
Some important things to remember.
As a tank, expertise is worth up to twice as much to you as it is to dps, up to the dodge cap (i think 26 expertise), because it eliminates dodge and parry chance. It also helps with mitigation (parry haste).
Early in fights, a parry will ***** up a rotation and will make it difficult to get dps quickly. It can keep a disease from going up, or just throw you off. I dropped to like 9 expertise at one point and it was atrocious and i gemmed for expertise + stam and now i got it back to a reasonable ~17 i think. I'm working on it still.
edit: wasn't explicit enough.
Edited, Jan 31st 2009 7:22pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
As a tank, expertise is worth up to twice as much to you as it is to dps, up to the dodge cap (i think 26 expertise), because it eliminates dodge and parry chance. It also helps with mitigation (parry haste).
Early in fights, a parry will ***** up a rotation and will make it difficult to get dps quickly. It can keep a disease from going up, or just throw you off. I dropped to like 9 expertise at one point and it was atrocious and i gemmed for expertise + stam and now i got it back to a reasonable ~17 i think. I'm working on it still.
edit: wasn't explicit enough.
Edited, Jan 31st 2009 7:22pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Quote:
As a tank, expertise is worth twice as much to you as it is to dps, because it eliminates dodge and parry chance. It also helps with mitigation (parry haste).
While true, this is very misleading.
All stats will have different weights to them for a DpS. These stats also usually have a sort of hierarchy to them as well, independent of the stat weight.
For example, defense is incredibly important to a tank. However, so is TpS. But, no tank is going to be venturing into a Heroic while not crit-immune. So, while both are important, Defense gets the priority. However, after reaching the cap, TpS boosts will be more desirable than defense until certain levels.
NOTE- I AM NOT SAYING TANKS SHOULD STOP AT THE CRIT-IMMUNE DEFENSE NUMBER.
So, when I begin to gear a tank, the first thing I check for is the above. After that I look at health. Then, I check stats that depend on the class (TpS stats). Once I have acceptable stats in each area, THEN I will start looking at item weights.
Why?
Say, for example, with an Unholy tank spec that Expertise/Hit are valued at 2 points per stat. Now imagine that Defense and Stamina are 3 points per stat.
I NEED to have enough Sta and Def to survive and be crit-immune. All I NEED is enough DpS gear to have sufficient TpS. Expertise is nice because it is great TpS with a small mitigation boost. But, I won't take expertise instead of Defense or Sta. DpS on the other hand can very easily sacrifice AP, Crit or +Hit for Expertise before it is capped (assuming those levels aren't too low).
So, in short. Expertise is great. But, you don't need to hit the cap with it unless your other stats are great.
And, remember, just because your mitigation/Sta/Armor is high enough for the current content for you to focus on DpS doesn't mean that it will be as good in the future dungeons.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
EnthalpyTheBurninator wrote:
Some important things to remember.
As a tank, expertise is worth twice as much to you as it is to dps, because it eliminates dodge and parry chance. It also helps with mitigation (parry haste).
As a tank, expertise is worth twice as much to you as it is to dps, because it eliminates dodge and parry chance. It also helps with mitigation (parry haste).
That's just blatantly wrong based on simple math.
It's worth twice as up to the dodge cap, but after that is worth the same.
You will never legitimately cap your expertise versus parry (even tanks in SWP didn't) without severely gimping your health and/or your mitigation.
Keep in mind that parries, while bad, are part of being a tank. You WILL get parried at some point against a boss. Taking itemization away from your mitigation and health to add to expertise when you've capped off your expertise versus dodges doesn't make much sense at the cost of mitigation.
That's not to say exceeding 26 expertise is a bad thing. It will reduce the frequency of parries (though you will still get some), but I wouldn't go out of my way to gem/gear/enchant for it.
Quote:
That's just blatantly wrong based on simple math.
It's worth twice as up to the dodge cap, but after that is worth the same.
It's worth twice as up to the dodge cap, but after that is worth the same.
He is actually referring to expertise used as mitigation versus expertise used as a dps/tps boost.
When a boss parries your attack, it attacks back quicker than it normally would. Please view the discussions at elitist jerks.
Karthal wrote:
Quote:
That's just blatantly wrong based on simple math.
It's worth twice as up to the dodge cap, but after that is worth the same.
It's worth twice as up to the dodge cap, but after that is worth the same.
He is actually referring to expertise used as mitigation versus expertise used as a dps/tps boost.
When a boss parries your attack, it attacks back quicker than it normally would. Please view the discussions at elitist jerks.
Seriously.
Seriously?
Please refer to the FAQs that I've written on this site.
I know how parry works.
Expertise is counted as an extremely small portion of your mitigation. The chance of you getting a parry after taking your expertise into account (usually tanks will run with 6.5%-ish expertise unless they can get more without sacrificing too much) is around 9%.
That's a 9% chance of getting parried on a 3.0+ second timer.
If a boss fight takes five minutes, that's about 9 parries for the entire fight.
Let's give us another 1% expertise (32.79 rating).
You'll get parried 8 times in a 5 minute fight! Wow! So you "mitigate" one attack from a boss for a massive amount of expertise rating!
That's not even guaranteed, either, or taking into account your yellow attacks (which are a lot).
Expertise is not a viable source of mitigation. It's a non-priority stat after you reach the dodge cap, as there are much better stats to focus on.
By all means, take what you can get, but once you get to 26 expertise, it's worth approximately half of what it is prior to reaching the dodge cap.
If you don't understand how that math works, please go back to 4th grade.
Actually the point I was trying to make was that not having enough expertise is painful. I lost about 15 expertise when I got a large number of upgrades in a single night and didn't regem/reenchant them on the spot, and it was parry fest 2008. Because DK is based on disease combos, and at the start of a fight 1 or 2 parries/dodges is very painful to your threat gen, it can cause a wipe (which it did for my group and I had to go regem).
Obviously misses will have the same effect, but up till the dodge cap expertise is generally worth more than most other stats, within a balance of course. Check a spreadsheet for modelling, or just use some intelligence and experience to see the effects of your stats.
Obviously misses will have the same effect, but up till the dodge cap expertise is generally worth more than most other stats, within a balance of course. Check a spreadsheet for modelling, or just use some intelligence and experience to see the effects of your stats.
Honestly, I agree with Theo and Enth, but why are we arguing it?
I answered all the OP's questions. Was there any reason to begin a 10 page thread?
I answered all the OP's questions. Was there any reason to begin a 10 page thread?
Quote:
Honestly, I agree with Theo and Enth, but why are we arguing it?
I answered all the OP's questions. Was there any reason to begin a 10 page thread?
I answered all the OP's questions. Was there any reason to begin a 10 page thread?
A. Because the value of Expertise is valuable knowledge for any tank.
B. Was there any reason for your post?
Who cares if it turns into a 10 page thread. If that leads to some of us gaining more knowledge, great. If it doesn't, no harm done.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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