(Most of the links on the druid resources thread are blocked where I am posting from)
One of my guildies is a Boomkin. Normally when I'm raiding or running instance the only classes/spec I have trouble out DPS'ing is Unholy Dks and Boomkins. When we raid I out dps her quite a bit.
At times she can be kind of... ummm... slow. I inspected her gear and she is epic'd out (much better gear than me) so she should be BOOMing? Right? Anyways her name is "Denisara" on Shu'Halo.
I would like to know what spell rotation do boomkins normally do? That maybe whats causing her to fall under me.
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Well, what sort of numbers are you and her posting?
Her talent build's a little weird. Oughta spread some love to the resto branch for the likes of the shapeshifter talents. Not sure why she put just 1 point into IMP FF. Her hit raiting is fairly low for raids, so unless she's eating hit food and drinking hit elixirs, she'd likely need the extra hit.
Does she often run resto? Looks like a decent chunk of her gear is more resto friendly. Crit's a bit low overall too. Was she having mana regen problems before, and hence the stacking of spirit?
Rotation wise some boomkins like to vary, but the standard is Insect Swarm to Wrath Spam to proc Eclipse, then moonfire and Starfall spam while that's up, or the opposite, with refreshing the DoTs to provide the bonuses.
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 12:54pm by Sinizine
Her talent build's a little weird. Oughta spread some love to the resto branch for the likes of the shapeshifter talents. Not sure why she put just 1 point into IMP FF. Her hit raiting is fairly low for raids, so unless she's eating hit food and drinking hit elixirs, she'd likely need the extra hit.
Does she often run resto? Looks like a decent chunk of her gear is more resto friendly. Crit's a bit low overall too. Was she having mana regen problems before, and hence the stacking of spirit?
Rotation wise some boomkins like to vary, but the standard is Insect Swarm to Wrath Spam to proc Eclipse, then moonfire and Starfall spam while that's up, or the opposite, with refreshing the DoTs to provide the bonuses.
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 12:54pm by Sinizine
Alright she's been boomkin for as long as I have known her. I don't think she has ever respec'd do casters need hit rating too?
EDIT: I'm doing 2.5k burst damage. 2.3k Constant dps on boss fights. 1.9k on trash pulls.
She is always around 300-400 dps below me unless it's a trash pull we're alternating for third.
(I know our dps is low but our entire server has low DPS)
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 12:12pm by potsoriginal
EDIT: I'm doing 2.5k burst damage. 2.3k Constant dps on boss fights. 1.9k on trash pulls.
She is always around 300-400 dps below me unless it's a trash pull we're alternating for third.
(I know our dps is low but our entire server has low DPS)
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 12:12pm by potsoriginal
I don't want to sound mean or condescending but, how can an entire server have low DPS?
Yes, Casters need hit rating too. Spells obviously can't be dodged or parried, but their miss chance is higher than a melee to compensate.
Boomkins should be using Hurricane on trash pulls, unless the tank is unable to keep aggro on a regular basis. That would raise trash dps up significantly. I was doing 1.5-2k on trash after the patch as a level 70 boomkin in half resto gear. So she should be able to push higher numbers than that.
With the addition of talents using spirit in the balance tree, spirit is used much more than it used to, and helps with both mana regen and spellpower if talents are spent correctly.
Basically the spell rotation is what Sinizine mentioned, but it's really about continuity. Making sure that IS/FF don't fall off(depending on your needs), keeping Moonfire up all the time for the added DoT(especially if you have the glyph) and then using your Eclipse procs to the greatest benefit.
If she's not continuously casting, or is offhealing, giving a battle rez, petting her kitty... then she's not going to maintain the same dps that she should be. That being said, Boomkin was nerfed a few times since the x-pac, but should still be doing respectable dps.
EDIT: Maybe he means that the server progression is slow, and thus with lower gear, lower DPS?
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 1:19pm by Galenmoon
Boomkins should be using Hurricane on trash pulls, unless the tank is unable to keep aggro on a regular basis. That would raise trash dps up significantly. I was doing 1.5-2k on trash after the patch as a level 70 boomkin in half resto gear. So she should be able to push higher numbers than that.
With the addition of talents using spirit in the balance tree, spirit is used much more than it used to, and helps with both mana regen and spellpower if talents are spent correctly.
Basically the spell rotation is what Sinizine mentioned, but it's really about continuity. Making sure that IS/FF don't fall off(depending on your needs), keeping Moonfire up all the time for the added DoT(especially if you have the glyph) and then using your Eclipse procs to the greatest benefit.
If she's not continuously casting, or is offhealing, giving a battle rez, petting her kitty... then she's not going to maintain the same dps that she should be. That being said, Boomkin was nerfed a few times since the x-pac, but should still be doing respectable dps.
EDIT: Maybe he means that the server progression is slow, and thus with lower gear, lower DPS?
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 1:19pm by Galenmoon
2.5k DPS is low? You've been hanging around on WoW message boards too much man. Last Naxx clear I did I think there was one person doing that consistently . I guess if you mean that's your guy's 25 man DPS that could be viewed as low with 25 man raid buffs, but as far as 10 mans and heroics, all the DPS in your group hitting 2k+ makes most of them fairly cake, and you shouldn't be worried. Like I said, her spec's a little weird, and with more points in resto she'd be snagging a decent chunk more intellect and spell damage.
Well a server's dps is low because I post my dps on these forums and everyone comes up with these god like numbers (4k-7k) of dps and insult mine. I've raided with 4 different guild on my server (10 mans) Pug'ed with just about the entire alliancce 80 community and the highest dps i've seen is 3.2k (me on VH final boss) so I concluded our whole server has low dps.
Alright so a boomkin gear needs int and crit?
Alright so a boomkin gear needs int and crit?
Like I'll often say, don't take what people say for granted. People who manage to reach some 7k DPS is 1) very situational like AoE on some thrash pull and is not worth taking it as "Okay this class can do constant 7k DPS" and 2) just horsesh!t. Seriously, people will always lie, especially on the interwebs.
Like Sinizine said though, 2k DPS+ is already pretty good so don't be discouraged by what people say. :P
Like Sinizine said though, 2k DPS+ is already pretty good so don't be discouraged by what people say. :P
Sinizine wrote:
2.5k DPS is low? You've been hanging around on WoW message boards too much man. Last Naxx clear I did I think there was one person doing that consistently . I guess if you mean that's your guy's 25 man DPS that could be viewed as low with 25 man raid buffs, but as far as 10 mans and heroics, all the DPS in your group hitting 2k+ makes most of them fairly cake, and you shouldn't be worried. Like I said, her spec's a little weird, and with more points in resto she'd be snagging a decent chunk more intellect and spell damage.
Not wanting to be seen like a jerk here, but 2k+ dps for heroics is fine, and maybe for sanctum/voa too.
But for naxx? Boonkin should be around 3k dps the full run, with a not so great equipment. More or less depending on bosses and more on trash, since its AoE fest. With gear on entry level you should do 2k+ dps, at least, thats what I did in 10 man when I started. But when you start getting gear, you hit 3k very easily.
Anyway, I recommend her to research about boonkin more. Hit cap/talent efectiveness/efective rotation for her way of playing/effective rotation for different bosses/critXhaste/so on and so forth.
I don't DPS Naxx, I pretty much run Resto for most raids, with some exceptions. Highest I've gotten myself was 3.3k on Sarathion, but that was with 25 man buffs and add duty. Only got to run that as Boomkin because I was the raid leader ><. I was offering an objective number, as I would love to find people doing consistent 2k+ DPS, as only myself and 2 other people I regularly instance with do it. Though I guess to be fair to them, most people I know are in the gearing up phase I guess. I guess my general bad experience with lackluster DPS has made it so my standards aren't exactly set high. Maybe my server is worse than his.
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 7:21pm by Sinizine
Edited, Jan 27th 2009 7:21pm by Sinizine
Back to the OP's question:
"Alright so a boomkin gear needs int and crit?"
Int, not so much. At least, don't itemize for it, don't gem for it, etc, since most of our junk has it anyway (notable exception being say, the Deathchill Cloak, which is just pure Spell power/Crit/haste) In general, hit cap comes first, like every DPS class, then spell power. I offered up the crit suggestion simply because it seemed a little low and she had a couple pure spell power items on that could be easily replace. She has a lot of haste gear, enough to where she could probably lose a little.
And again, the spec has issues.
"Alright so a boomkin gear needs int and crit?"
Int, not so much. At least, don't itemize for it, don't gem for it, etc, since most of our junk has it anyway (notable exception being say, the Deathchill Cloak, which is just pure Spell power/Crit/haste) In general, hit cap comes first, like every DPS class, then spell power. I offered up the crit suggestion simply because it seemed a little low and she had a couple pure spell power items on that could be easily replace. She has a lot of haste gear, enough to where she could probably lose a little.
And again, the spec has issues.
first get hit capped. H VH has a nice hit trinket off end boss. next this one will hurt spell damage some but already have the rep for it maybe try out the dagger from kirin tor. dont know if your friend dont like it or if your on a pvp server but let them know they can wear cloth i see more hit cloth drop than leather so will help or to change gems around for hit maybe instead of the socket bonuses. and like others have said spec is alittle eh different.
First priority is getting hit capped. Hit cap is 341 hit (with Balance of Power talented). Take into account what classes the raid has. Shadow priests have Misery which increases chance to hit the target by 3%, any Draenei has an aura that increases chance to hit by 1%.
For example, my Moonkin has about 10% hit on his own. So 10% hit + 4% from Balance of Power + 3% from Improved Faerie Fire = 17% chance to hit and I'm capped.
Spell rotations? A common rotation is to apply your DoTs (Moonfire, Insect swarm, Improved Faerie Fire if you're specced for it) then use Wrath till you proc Eclipse then use Starfire till Eclipse is off its cooldown. Refresh DoTs as needed, just not while Eclipse is up.This rotation is great DPS while also being pretty mana efficient.
Download SquawkAndAwe to track Eclipse's cooldown. Have your friend try to get the Starfire Idol that drops in Naxx or use the heroic badge Wrath Idol till then.
Edited, Jan 28th 2009 8:25am by NeithanTheWronged
Edited, Jan 28th 2009 8:30am by NeithanTheWronged
For example, my Moonkin has about 10% hit on his own. So 10% hit + 4% from Balance of Power + 3% from Improved Faerie Fire = 17% chance to hit and I'm capped.
Spell rotations? A common rotation is to apply your DoTs (Moonfire, Insect swarm, Improved Faerie Fire if you're specced for it) then use Wrath till you proc Eclipse then use Starfire till Eclipse is off its cooldown. Refresh DoTs as needed, just not while Eclipse is up.This rotation is great DPS while also being pretty mana efficient.
Download SquawkAndAwe to track Eclipse's cooldown. Have your friend try to get the Starfire Idol that drops in Naxx or use the heroic badge Wrath Idol till then.
Edited, Jan 28th 2009 8:25am by NeithanTheWronged
Edited, Jan 28th 2009 8:30am by NeithanTheWronged
Alright so I confronted her about it last night politely about all the sp and before she could reply all the guildies jumped on me.
Guy 1: SP is better than crit. Would you rather have a spell thats hits 100 and crits for 300 20% of the time or have a spell that hits for 200 all the time and crits for 400 15% of the time.
(those aren't her actual crits he was just putting in numbers) And the rest of the conversation fell on those lines. But I'm a hunter so I live off crit so obviously at the end they said "So which would you rather have?" I choose crit.
Anyways she's spec'ing for hit rating now. She's missing 7% of the time so she's trying to get like 150 hit rating on top of her 114 or something.
Guy 1: SP is better than crit. Would you rather have a spell thats hits 100 and crits for 300 20% of the time or have a spell that hits for 200 all the time and crits for 400 15% of the time.
(those aren't her actual crits he was just putting in numbers) And the rest of the conversation fell on those lines. But I'm a hunter so I live off crit so obviously at the end they said "So which would you rather have?" I choose crit.
Anyways she's spec'ing for hit rating now. She's missing 7% of the time so she's trying to get like 150 hit rating on top of her 114 or something.
Spellpower is better to itemize for than crit. Don't gem for crit (except the meta gem that is crit, that's ok)
Edited, Jan 28th 2009 12:55pm by NeithanTheWronged
Edited, Jan 28th 2009 12:55pm by NeithanTheWronged
Crit is harder to itemize than haste is. I would go with haste over crit any day as long as I'm not nerfing my crit to nothing, you need that crit for eclipse and mana return.
Quote:
Crit is harder to itemize than haste is. I would go with haste over crit any day as long as I'm not nerfing my crit to nothing, you need that crit for eclipse and mana return.
eh i find this one a tough one. i like crit more than haste. yeah you can cast faster but crit gives mana back and has a bult in hast of .5 sec faster cast through tallents. so i always find that a toss up. i like the mana return on crits more than little faster cast. once again i think this is a personal preff though. and like you said crit spawns eclipse faster.
I used to be the same way in BC taking crit over haste, I figured with every crit procing .5 second reduction in cast time but now that the amount of crit from items is harder to come by, haste just comes much easier. I just hate seeing the other boomkin I raid with in 4 piece valorous proc SF eclipse before I do when I can out damage/dps him any day with gear that isn't as good as his.
I want 40% crit unbuffed like I had in BC again :(
I want 40% crit unbuffed like I had in BC again :(
Quote:
I want 40% crit unbuffed like I had in BC again :(
god i feel you there. we are getting close tho, right now with 4pc valorous im sitting around 35% on starfire/wrath. It gets me thinking though if this stuff is equivalent to tier4 or 5 in BC, how much crit are we going to have/need when we get to ulduar or even icecrown citadel.
By then it seems we will be at close to 50% without eclipse procs. Maybe the upgrades will be smaller than they were in bc, but I can always get my hopes up.
So I decided to try this haste thing and I haven't really been able to test it fully on a raid but right now I'm sitting at 18.25% haste with talents and around 21% crit. I just want to get to the point where it feels like I have heriosm all the time.
damokian wrote:
Quote:
I want 40% crit unbuffed like I had in BC again :(
god i feel you there. we are getting close tho, right now with 4pc valorous im sitting around 35% on starfire/wrath. It gets me thinking though if this stuff is equivalent to tier4 or 5 in BC, how much crit are we going to have/need when we get to ulduar or even icecrown citadel.
By then it seems we will be at close to 50% without eclipse procs. Maybe the upgrades will be smaller than they were in bc, but I can always get my hopes up.
You probably have 50% already, if you take in consideration scorch and all internal buffs that are not visible in youu charachter sheet.
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god i feel you there. we are getting close tho, right now with 4pc valorous im sitting around 35% on starfire/wrath. It gets me thinking though if this stuff is equivalent to tier4 or 5 in BC, how much crit are we going to have/need when we get to ulduar or even icecrown citadel.
By then it seems we will be at close to 50% without eclipse procs. Maybe the upgrades will be smaller than they were in bc, but I can always get my hopes up.
By then it seems we will be at close to 50% without eclipse procs. Maybe the upgrades will be smaller than they were in bc, but I can always get my hopes up.
I'm pretty sure that this will work like in TBC, when haste didn't really appear until T5, and expertise became the big thing in T6.
I'm thinking that armor penetration will probably be the next big thing for physical dps and tanks in T8, with haste continuing to grow in importance for casters. It wouldn't even surprise me too much if spell penetration would suddenly become the new caster stat along with mobs having higher resistances to start with. They might even merge the two to make itemization easier.
Just seems like a working strategy for Blizz to more or less introduce a new stat each time people hit certain caps on the old ones. 50% crit (or very close to) seems quite common right now for both casters and physical, so the timing is about right.
potsoriginal wrote:
do casters need hit rating too?
I realize that none of your characters are DPS caster classes, but I don't understand how you got to level 80 (almost twice), have a post count of 400+ here, raid in the game and still didn't know that casters need hit rating - especially since a previous patch made a pretty big deal out of it.
Please understand that I'm not trying to be rude. I'm simply... baffled.
Edited, Feb 1st 2009 11:25am by Mazra
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