Fury Warrior Hit CapFollow

The hit cap for fury is a soft cap, intended to ensure special attacks don't miss. That's 8% against a boss level mob @ 32.77 hit rating per percentage point. You can push it past that, but all it will be doing is adding to the likelihood your auto attacks land (more on this later)

Doing the arithmetic, 8*32.77 = 262.16 .. .this is of course without precision. If you take the 3% of precision into account, you only need hit rating to satisfy 5% .. and that's 5*32.77 = 163.85.

NOW ... it's pretty strange that you should post this now, because I actually came here to post some thoughts I was having regarding the +hit required after that 8%.

Some players claim that it's enough to simply cap hit at 8%, others claim you must push hit past that, sometimes as far as 300 or 400 (I've even seen 500) in order to ensure sufficient rage generation to prevent yourself from being rage starved and suffering in the DPS department as a result.

I'd been thinking about this for a while, trying to play the reasoning out in my head. The way I've always seen it, is that once you ensure that your main damage dealers hit, every point of hit is less beneficial that a point in pretty much any other stat. For example : if every strike you make hits harder and generates more rage, surely that's better than eliminating a possibility that the strike may not hit. It just seems logical to me.

So I decided to look at a few numbers, they're simple numbers, and they're a direct comparison to fury's sibling - arms.

I figured on this - once you get 8% hit as arms, EVERY SINGLE POINT of hit after that is a total waste .. completely, because 8% +hit as arms means that you're hit capped for ALL attacks, you'll never miss. So, 8% in arms will provide you with optimal rage generation ... Yes ?? Well, at least, that's the way I see it.

Now, let's look at what happens if we leave a fury warrior with only 8% hit. He (unlike his arms brother) will miss 19% of his white attacks after loading up +hit to 8%. My logic is that if we compare straightforward white dps from an arms warrior, hitting with every strike against a fury warrior missing nearly 20% of the time, with a second weapon doing only 62.5% of the damage, which setup produces more white dps, and therefore more rage.

The numbers are: *opens the sealed, unmarked envelope*

Assuming a 170 DPS 2 handed weapon, and 3000 ap. (fury warrior will have 2 of these)

Arms will produce

170 dps + (3000/14) dps = 384 white dps

Fury will produce:

MH : (170 dps + (3000/14) dps) * hitting 81% of the time = 311 white dps
OH : (170 dps + (3000/14) dps) * 0.625 * hitting 81% of the time = 195 white dps

Total white DPS = 505 Dps

This differential gets larger and larger as you add more and more AP (a neat little discovery I made while fiddling with the AP numbers in the spreadsheet, which fully supported my gut feeling)

So, these numbers indicate that with the equivalent levels of +hit,(and that level if the absolute minimum level you should be at) you do more damage, and therefore generate more rage as Fury than you do as Arms .. [b]With only +8% hit[b].

Granted, Arms warriors generally have Endless rage, which produces 25% more rage ... but that nowhere near makes up for the differential .. Actually, if you take AP based DPS out of the equation entirely, the extra 25% rage puts the 2 almost exactly on par ... but as soon as you start adding AP, the gap immediately starts growing, and doesn't stop.

Now I fully understand that what I'm showing here is DPS numbers and not real rage generated, but rage is generated by dealing white damage, that's the only variable here .. all other factors in the rage generation formula are constants, which means ... if you generate more damage - you generate more rage.

So, in conclusion, if arms can make do with the rgae generation they put out, and fury, with a bare minimum of +hit can pump out more rage generation, and exponentially more as AP is increased ... why are people so hung up on piling on the +hit gear in order to prevent themselves being rage starved.

ps. As Fury, you'll be in zerker stance, which means if ever you take damage, you'll generate 10% more rage that your brother in arms (hehe, see what I did there) ...

Peace folks, and if I have a glaring error in my reasoning, feel free to point it out.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2009 5:08pm by robertlofthouse

I've something strange to add about dps fury off-hand.

My wow armory - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&n=Ragnarokroan (9% hit)

MH - Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver (with 85 atk), OH - Red Sword of Courage (+28 hit)
MH - Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver (with 85 atk), OH - Colossal Skull-Clad Cleaver (with 85 atk)

They both produced the same dps in total on grandmaster's dummy but [Red Sword of Courage] - OH, did better on heroic dummy by an additional 200dps. (dps testing for 5 mins on each OH)

The differences between both off-hands DPS:
CSCC vs RSoC
311 vs 246.9 (dps with my stats included)
[+0.86% crit, +90 haste, +265 ap] vs [+54 hit, +0.75% expertise, +50ap]
9.3% hit vs 10.98% hit

This possibly means i need 54 hit rating & 3 expertise skill to unlock 64 to 200 dps with CSCC OH at 11% hit. (atleast I know now that i can safely sacrifice str gems)

I hope this information helped. (patch 3.0.8)

Edited, Jan 24th 2009 1:53pm by tumbirs

Excellent point Devious ... so many people wave the +hit (even after softcap) flag, because they've actually seen an increase in DPS when they've added it. The obvious answer to that is, Of course you'll add dps ... anyone who claims that adding hit doesn't add dps is really being stoopid.

BUT ... how much more dps (overall) would your gain be by adding 54 str instead of 54 hit. Yes, your gain would be more by adding str ... guaranteed ... and the reason for that is exactly what Devious said ... +Str (and +crit for that matter) add to your special attack dps AS WELL AS your white attacks, whereas +hit only adds to your white attacks.

The ONLY other argument for +hit would (could) be the assertion that without the extra hit, you would be rage starved. However, based on the numbers I presented above, and the fact that there is absolutely nothing more that an arms warrior can do for rage generation in the +hit department (hard cap being equal to the "Soft" cap), even +hit after soft cap does less for your rage generation that +str or +crit would.

Bottom line - make sure your specials don't miss ... after that, pile on the AP and crit, and your rage generation will take care of itself.

Most pro fury warriors I've seen have dropped their hit to around 200 and have noticed damage increases across the board. It's still like it was in TBC, hit is not that hot after the special cap is hit.

In re: to MrsGemini;

Before 3.0.8 this forumla was different, now that Titans grip does NOT incur a penalty to hit on specials, it's different than before.

Your special attacks, blood thirst, whirlwind, etc... that consume rage and deal damage that is yellow colored instead of white, only have a 5% miss chance. Bosses require 3% more to hit because of level difference (to put things short and blunt and not very precise...)

Your auto attacks, the white numbers of damage that give rage, have a 24% chance to miss base (5% base + 19% for duel wield), 27% on bosses.


So. To optimize DPS, many warriors just get the 8% to hit, so that they don't miss with bloodthirst and such. Then focus on increasing their other primary damage stats. Namely strength and crit. If you parse (get an addon like recount or recap) your dps on fights, and see that your specials deal more overall dps than white hits (auto attacks) increasing the specials damage is a priority over white damage.

Generally you'll find yourself gaining quite a bit more from stacking strength than hit, once you get 8%+ to hit. hit becomes less useful once you hit 8%.

I'll break it down;

Hit rating from 0% to 8% acts on both your white attacks AND your special attacks.
Hit rating from 8% to beyond acts only on your white attacks.

Strength works on all damage you deal, except execute...
Strength increases rage gain from auto attacks

Crit works on all your damage.
Crit increases rage gain.

and so on for the other stats; armor pen, haste, expertise...


And on to expertise.

Expertise acts like hit does in a way. It lowers the targets chance to dodge and parry by a factor. Since you should never never never never never ever be attacking a target as a dps warrior in a group where your attacks can be parried. You only have to worry about your attacks being dodged. Which works in relation to damage output as hit does. Except once you cap expertise for dodge, you really capped expertise for dodge. (I believe 6% is the going rate for boss dodge rates).



So, this is all written off the top of my head, so the exactness of this post is trivial. The concepts are more important. I feel fairly confidant that the numbers I posted are correct as of today, and patch 3.0.8.

WWS please.

I'll get you a WWS next week when we do Patch.

Edit:
Heroic run from awhile back that I happened to SS at the time because I thought it was funny that I was so close to all the DPS, and that the greens geared friend of mine (Churchee) that had dinged an hour before had topped meters. That is just the boss, AoE trash isn't taken into account. Raid buffs would have been terrific for more damage.

Terrible week in Naxx. The run is dirty, but take a look at Patchy. The healers we picked up for the raid were absolutely god awful, so it took a few attempts. If you look at attempt 1, almost 2500 DPS. Attempt 2, 2300. Attempt 3 I was sustaining mid-2400s until I died and called for a battle rez, at which point my DPS dropped by an abysmal amount due to not getting rage. Still, I ended up with 2k DPS despite having about 45 seconds full of nothing but white swings and the occasional devastate.

So I guess that's a swing and a miss on telling me, flat out, that I don't do that kind of DPS.

I never called you stupid, and I never implied that I thought you were. I'm not subtle enough to imply rather than just state something like that. I said you were doing it wrong, and I was correct. Gearing aside, which I can understand that sometimes you just don't get the drops you want, I see two gems for +hit in your armory. I didn't bother looking before, because I'm not the type to run around ripping people apart on their gear/progression. You offered it to me as some sort of proof that you were not doing things incorrectly, however, so I felt I should respond.


Edited, Feb 5th 2009 5:32pm by FletusSanguine

I wasn't going to say anything until I read the 'make sure you know what your talking about'
With your gear, 3100 dps is _pitiful_ in a 25 man

Hell, I nearly average 3k dps in 10 mans

Now, I don't know if it's the class, or just being in a very caster heavy raid group and thus missing some needed buffs, but 3100 dps in a 25 man doesn't give you the right to come in here with that arrogant tone.

Edited, Feb 8th 2009 4:25pm by NeroSeekerOfSouls

It's no problem. I wasn't offended by either post, and especially not yours. The smugness of the other post is what caught my attention more than anything, but it mostly just made me laugh. I'm not the type to spout off at the mouth, and when I say something I tend to be able to back it up with fact. Their response seemed like the canned sort that you often get from people that refuse to believe that the class is capable of doing something that can be done, simply because they can't do it, so I provided proof. At some point, you have to ask yourself if the class is the issue, or if the issue is closer to home.

As for the WWS, hopefully I'll be able to push it higher this upcoming Naxx. I was in almost entirely 10s gear as of that WWS, and I've managed to thankfully get a few better pieces, bringing me up to the hit cap and closer to the expertise cap. I also did a rundown of the damage difference, as best as I could since you can't really accurately model the DPS differences via DW, between my Red Sword of Heroics and my Broken Promise. For rage abundant fights (i.e.: Patchwerk) the Red Sword comes out WAY ahead as a result of more heroic strikes. So testing was done, and the Broken Promise turns out to be kind of a disappointment. The plus side to this is that I'm hoping to be able to push my DPS closer to 3k with the new gear and the better weapon. Kinda sucks that I wasted the mats on Accuracy, though. That's not a cheap enchant.