Hey thanks for clearing that up for me Ehcks, on the new JoW. I now know what they actually mean by base mana now. I mean you can't blame people for thinking it meant what i was saying because just saying base mana is a very vague explanation.
Now that our DMG has been reduced by 50% in Bubble don't you think that DK's should have a penalty in their Anti-Magic Shell. I mean they reduced the CD from 1 min to 45 sec and reduced the duration from 15sec(i think) to 10sec. I think they should also do 50% less DMG just from the simple fact that they can cast it every 35sec. Hey I don't wanna sound like I'm QQ but... why would you make an OP class and start them off at LvL 55 for everyone to make. Blizz should have done what they said they intended to make them for. To tank instances and Raids. I see more Blood and Unholy DK's then anything and thats all I see in arenas. Hey i'm just saying it's getting old fighting the same class every other fight in BG's and arena. I do like their new spells and everything they do bring to the table but I just feel they should have made them start at LvL 1. I also dont like how they can have 2 pets out at once. Thats alot of DPS for nothing. Whatever thats just how I feel
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- DK Bubble(ant magic shell)
DK Bubble(ant magic shell)Follow
Kinda sounds like you meant to post this in a reply, but either way, couple thoughts here:
- Should DKs get a damage reduction penalty on AMS? Sure. Let's give it to Warriors on their Shield Wall too. Oh, how about Druids? We could tack it on to Survival Instincts! No, less class homogenization please. Besides, this is what the DK was originally designed to be: the "anti caster". Don't think it's too much to let them be that
- If DKs are OP right now that's probably mostly to do with the fact they are a brand new class. Look, how long has WoW been around already? And Blizzard still doesn't have the original 9 classes balanced?? Then people expect them to get it right on the first try with a brand new class with brand new mechanics.
And I'm pretty tired about hearing all the QQ about DKs starting at level 55. They are a "Hero class", meaning how you acquire them and start one of them is different and requires more then just buying the game. Besides, look at the whole DK experience. How would all that feel if you started at level 1? Pretty friggin pathetic if you ask me.
- DK tanking: yes, that's what Bliz made them for, and you know what? Many DKs are doing just that. They're tanking as Blood, Frost, and Unholy, but they are also doing DPS as all 3 specs. Guess what: this was also intended. There's no way that Blizzard can "force" people to tank unless they made a class that could not do anything else effectively, but then no one would play that class, so it completely defeats the purpose.
And let's not put DKs unfairly in the limelight here: what about Arms/Fury Warriors, Ret Paladins, and Feral (DPS only!) Druids? Blizzard designed them to tank, they should be tanking, right? Not if that's not what they want to do. Now, don't get me wrong, I get frustrated at all the tanking classes that refuse to tank as well, just as I do the healing classes that refuse to heal. But you can't change the fact that people will play their class how they want to.
- I may have missed something here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but how can a DK have 2 pets at once? I see their ghoul, which unless they are specced Unholy, has a short duration with a longer CD, and is hardly a Hunter/Warlock pet. I see gargoyle that has a decent CD, short duration, and a cost attached to it. Can't be controlled, so again, is no where near a Hunter/Warlock pet. Umm - mini pets? I'm not sure what you are getting at there.
- You know, I don't like how a Rogue can stun me from 100% till death without even getting a chance to poke them with a stick, but that's what happens =P
Sorry if this feels rantish ... I've been sick all week, and it's really getting old :S Lame excuse, but I'm irritable, so deal with it ;)
- Should DKs get a damage reduction penalty on AMS? Sure. Let's give it to Warriors on their Shield Wall too. Oh, how about Druids? We could tack it on to Survival Instincts! No, less class homogenization please. Besides, this is what the DK was originally designed to be: the "anti caster". Don't think it's too much to let them be that
- If DKs are OP right now that's probably mostly to do with the fact they are a brand new class. Look, how long has WoW been around already? And Blizzard still doesn't have the original 9 classes balanced?? Then people expect them to get it right on the first try with a brand new class with brand new mechanics.
And I'm pretty tired about hearing all the QQ about DKs starting at level 55. They are a "Hero class", meaning how you acquire them and start one of them is different and requires more then just buying the game. Besides, look at the whole DK experience. How would all that feel if you started at level 1? Pretty friggin pathetic if you ask me.
- DK tanking: yes, that's what Bliz made them for, and you know what? Many DKs are doing just that. They're tanking as Blood, Frost, and Unholy, but they are also doing DPS as all 3 specs. Guess what: this was also intended. There's no way that Blizzard can "force" people to tank unless they made a class that could not do anything else effectively, but then no one would play that class, so it completely defeats the purpose.
And let's not put DKs unfairly in the limelight here: what about Arms/Fury Warriors, Ret Paladins, and Feral (DPS only!) Druids? Blizzard designed them to tank, they should be tanking, right? Not if that's not what they want to do. Now, don't get me wrong, I get frustrated at all the tanking classes that refuse to tank as well, just as I do the healing classes that refuse to heal. But you can't change the fact that people will play their class how they want to.
- I may have missed something here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but how can a DK have 2 pets at once? I see their ghoul, which unless they are specced Unholy, has a short duration with a longer CD, and is hardly a Hunter/Warlock pet. I see gargoyle that has a decent CD, short duration, and a cost attached to it. Can't be controlled, so again, is no where near a Hunter/Warlock pet. Umm - mini pets? I'm not sure what you are getting at there.
- You know, I don't like how a Rogue can stun me from 100% till death without even getting a chance to poke them with a stick, but that's what happens =P
Sorry if this feels rantish ... I've been sick all week, and it's really getting old :S Lame excuse, but I'm irritable, so deal with it ;)
Umm...
If a rogue can still Stunlock your Paladin from 100% down to death without you even being able to poke them with a stick, you aren't playing your Paladin correctly. I am Prot spec, and most level 80 rogues can't even kill me anymore let alone stunlock me to death.
As for the original topic, I don't have any real problems with DKs as they are currently designed. They probably are SLIGHTLY OP, but I don't think it will take much to bring them back into "balance". There are a few (very few) classes/specs that were over-nerfed in the expansion so far (mostly rogues) and a few that are probably still a bit more powerful than they should be (Moonkin, DK, Ret), but overall, the balance isn't severly out of whack for the most part.
In PvE content, I have been in heroics with different group compositions, and have seen #1 DPS for the heroic go to Arms Warrior, Hunter, Mage, Ret Pally, Moonkin, Shadow Priest and (on RARE occasion) DK. I have done a heroic with the DPS consisting of Arms Warrior, MM Hunter, and Arcane Mage, and all 3 were right around 2.2k DPS in Heroic blues and Heroic/Rep/Emblem of heroism purples and fighting each other for top DPS the whole time. I would say that MOST classes are pretty well balanced in PvE content (Rogues are MUCH more gear dependent than most classes however).
In PvP content, certain classes/specs are OP compared to others, but this is the way it has ALWAYS been! At least we have some variety now rather than "every 2-man arena team is Rogue/Druid or Warr/Druid" so at least that is progress.
If a rogue can still Stunlock your Paladin from 100% down to death without you even being able to poke them with a stick, you aren't playing your Paladin correctly. I am Prot spec, and most level 80 rogues can't even kill me anymore let alone stunlock me to death.
As for the original topic, I don't have any real problems with DKs as they are currently designed. They probably are SLIGHTLY OP, but I don't think it will take much to bring them back into "balance". There are a few (very few) classes/specs that were over-nerfed in the expansion so far (mostly rogues) and a few that are probably still a bit more powerful than they should be (Moonkin, DK, Ret), but overall, the balance isn't severly out of whack for the most part.
In PvE content, I have been in heroics with different group compositions, and have seen #1 DPS for the heroic go to Arms Warrior, Hunter, Mage, Ret Pally, Moonkin, Shadow Priest and (on RARE occasion) DK. I have done a heroic with the DPS consisting of Arms Warrior, MM Hunter, and Arcane Mage, and all 3 were right around 2.2k DPS in Heroic blues and Heroic/Rep/Emblem of heroism purples and fighting each other for top DPS the whole time. I would say that MOST classes are pretty well balanced in PvE content (Rogues are MUCH more gear dependent than most classes however).
In PvP content, certain classes/specs are OP compared to others, but this is the way it has ALWAYS been! At least we have some variety now rather than "every 2-man arena team is Rogue/Druid or Warr/Druid" so at least that is progress.
#4REDACTED,
Posted: Jan 22 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Ok I will defend Maulgak on this one, I do to get stunlocked by rogues and when i come out of stun all they do is clos and its GG as i cant stun them or judge them. Thats all it really takes. Your a prot Pally, thats why that cant kill you, to the other reply. I don't know but i definetly seen a ghoul and a gargoyal out at the same time, a number of times. Look I do fine against DK's especially now that the new patch is out. I'm just saying when I do 2's with my arcane mage who isn't that geared out but is an real good player, dont you think its a lil ridiculous when a DK can drop them with +90% health at an even start. Casters just have no chance at all I'd hate to be 1. You can't honestly sit their and say that DK's are fine right now they should be left alone. They should not be able to just walk through casters like that hence their domination in 2vs2.
Wall of text ftl. Seriously dude, break it up a bit, makes it really hard to read when you bunch it up like that.
Again... I'll start off by quoting what Maulgak said:
See that? Anti-caster. They're meant to eat casters for breakfast. I'm not sure about post-patch but previously Rogues used to destroy most caster classes and they don't have AMS. Lots of classes don't have AMS and they can pretty easily down a caster. They're still probably slightly OP after the patch, but AMS is not the problem. Go ask in the DK forums, I'm sure Theo will explain very nicely. :p
I also don't see the problem with starting them off at level 55. With the easier leveling in Vanilla WoW and with RAF (3x exp bonus when grouping, granting levels), any could really get a DK up to 55 in no time anyways. The only difference? We might see less idiot DKs out in OL and NR now... but they'd probably get there eventually. Leveling is easy in WoW.
Again... I'll start off by quoting what Maulgak said:
Maulgak wrote:
Besides, this is what the DK was originally designed to be: the "anti caster".
See that? Anti-caster. They're meant to eat casters for breakfast. I'm not sure about post-patch but previously Rogues used to destroy most caster classes and they don't have AMS. Lots of classes don't have AMS and they can pretty easily down a caster. They're still probably slightly OP after the patch, but AMS is not the problem. Go ask in the DK forums, I'm sure Theo will explain very nicely. :p
I also don't see the problem with starting them off at level 55. With the easier leveling in Vanilla WoW and with RAF (3x exp bonus when grouping, granting levels), any could really get a DK up to 55 in no time anyways. The only difference? We might see less idiot DKs out in OL and NR now... but they'd probably get there eventually. Leveling is easy in WoW.
jeromesimina wrote:
If a rogue can still Stunlock your Paladin from 100% down to death without you even being able to poke them with a stick, you aren't playing your Paladin correctly.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I've never had an issue with Rogues on my Paladin, but I have played every class in this game now, some to a greater extent than others, and no other class have I been able to sufficiently face a Rogue. Not one. This is, imo, a real problem.
And in defense of my comments: I never said DKs were NOT OP. Got it? Yes, I do agree that DKs are a little OP at the moment, but I don't agree that they are "OMG GAWDS AND PWNZORS OF ALL" like some people may claim them to be. I stand by my statement that they were designed to do well against casters. That was their roll. Suck it up and learn to beat them imo.
Another point, no I do not PvP. You hear that everyone??? I do NOT PvP. I can't stand it, I hate it, it's a ridiculous waste of time imo. The only reason I even have the PvP experience on my Paladin that I do is because I was required for an old lame *** guild to get a PvP trinket for a couple fights in Hyjal. That's it. Again, for my Paladin. I PvPed a fair amount on my Shaman pre expansion cause it was the only way I could advance his gear. Now, if you want to use this as an argument to say I don't know what I'm talking about, you have another thing coming.
Besides, balance is not just about your precious PvP. Whatever changes in PvP will affect PvE, and vica versa. That's just how the game goes: both playstyles are intertwined. Look at Hunters. They were doing too much damage in PvE, but underpreforming in PvP. Well, Blizz couldn't simply lower Hunter's damage and call it good, cause now they are preforming even worse in PvP. You can't just say, "Well, Paladins get a damage penalty, so DKs should to," without looking at how that is going to affect other aspects of the game, and without risking class homogenization. If it is deemed necessary to bring DKs into balance, then so be it. But you don't just go slapping changes on a class willy nilly simply because another class has it.
Now, I'm not always good with words, but hopefully that clears things up a bit. Doubtful, given your decision to attack my knowledge on the game, but whatever.
EDIT: cause I fail at quoting sometimes >.>
Edited, Jan 23rd 2009 2:08am by Maulgak
#7REDACTED,
Posted: Jan 23 2009 at 9:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Whatever dude, I'm talking about PvP and you go and make it a PvE thing. You think arenas are a waste of time and I think spending 4 hours locked down on ur PC and waiting for everyone to what not is a waste of time. You know what starting DK's off at lvl 55 isn't really that big of a deal.
Divine Shield imposes an offensive penalty because it was intended to be a defensive ability. Immediately after the pre-Wrath patch hit, ret paladins were hitting bubble and wings to totally destroy opponents in arena matches, with absolutely no counter. We were invulnerable gods of war for about a week, then they fcked AW up, and now they're reversing that fck-up and giving DS a proper damage penalty to make sure it's used "as intended."
By contrast, AMS isn't a defensive ability at all, at least not in the same way. AMS is designed to protect the DK while he's beating the crap out of a caster. By contrast, divine shield is used to give us ten seconds to heal, as well as clearing debuffs, snares and stuns. If AMS gave a damage penalty, death knights would just not use it. And that sucks, because it's a signature ability from WC3 and it would be awful if no-one used it for fear of gimping their damage.
Edit: Also, it's kinda retarded to tell Maulgak he's picking a fight when you're the one starting the discussion. If Maulgak wanted to flamebait you, he'd just call you a moron and watch you fume.
I'm just kidding, Maulgak's too nice to call people morons. But he should. Being nice is a sign of weakness, and invulnerable gods of war cannot afford to be weak like frail girly-men.
Edited, Jan 23rd 2009 3:31pm by zepoodle
By contrast, AMS isn't a defensive ability at all, at least not in the same way. AMS is designed to protect the DK while he's beating the crap out of a caster. By contrast, divine shield is used to give us ten seconds to heal, as well as clearing debuffs, snares and stuns. If AMS gave a damage penalty, death knights would just not use it. And that sucks, because it's a signature ability from WC3 and it would be awful if no-one used it for fear of gimping their damage.
Edit: Also, it's kinda retarded to tell Maulgak he's picking a fight when you're the one starting the discussion. If Maulgak wanted to flamebait you, he'd just call you a moron and watch you fume.
I'm just kidding, Maulgak's too nice to call people morons. But he should. Being nice is a sign of weakness, and invulnerable gods of war cannot afford to be weak like frail girly-men.
Edited, Jan 23rd 2009 3:31pm by zepoodle
zepoodle wrote:
I'm just kidding, Maulgak's too nice to call people morons. But he should. Being nice is a sign of weakness, and invulnerable gods of war cannot afford to be weak like frail girly-men.
Thanks for the vote of confidence ;) lol
Your wordage to explain the situation was also far better then mine, and I appreciate it. I did say I'm not always good at putting things properly, so if what I said doesn't make any sense, just ignore it and read ze's post here.
EDIT: Oh, and just because of your support: Retardedin, you picked your name all too well, cause you are a moron.
There, I said it :)
Edited, Jan 23rd 2009 5:06pm by Maulgak
Retardedin wrote:
These guys mutilate casters like nobodys business.
Yep, but in return they are mutilated by other classes. Are you suggesting that your mage friend doesn't mutilate certain other classes? If so perhaps he's not as good a player as you claim, or you just think he's good because you suck so much.
Maulgak wrote:
Retardedin, you picked your name all too well, cause you are a moron.
QFT.
The difficulty with screaming for PvP nerfs is that it does affect PvE. Anti-magic Shell is a major defensive ability for DK tanks, and the reason you don't see a damage reduction for DKs while under the effect of the shell is because the shell is limited to magic damage, whereas Divine Shield is all damage. Blizzard did a very neat job with Icebound Fortitude...I haven't seen the numbers in terms of what a DK is getting for mitigation with 540+ defense, but essentially they took the DK's equivalent of Shield Wall/Divine Protection, realized that it was just too easy to abuse in PvP so instead of ******** over the PvE end of things, they tweaked the ability and made it scale with a PvE stat. Awesome. In fact, that's probably the best single change I've ever seen to an ability in my entire time of playing WoW to address the concern...use of the ability in PvP...without obliterating the function in PvE. Seriously. I was impressed.
I just respecced my DK last night after hitting 70. I was finding that the damage was nice...very nice, in fact...but I was missing some key things that would make me a viable tank in Northrend dungeons. Using the talents available to me to address that came with an enormous penalty to my damage output...who would have thought 10-15 talents could make such a difference? DK aren't the uber zomfg do anything with one spec and one set of gear class. Geared and specced properly, they can put out damage on par with an equally geared/specced DPS warrior. They can also tank adequately...if geared and specced properly.
In PvP, they shine vs. casters. That's what they're supposed to do. It's pretty ridiculous to say, "zomfg that DK just roflstomped that mage they are OP!" when DKs were...designed as an anti-caster class. WOO! DK are doing what they were designed to do! zomfg!
It's too early in the lifespan of the DK to label them as glaringly OP. Every other class in the game has been around since vanilla and not only has Blizzard had time to tweak and adjust, players have had time to learn the abilities and develop counters for them. DK saw some nerfs aimed at their PvP performance already...now we wait and see how it pans out for the next few weeks.
I just respecced my DK last night after hitting 70. I was finding that the damage was nice...very nice, in fact...but I was missing some key things that would make me a viable tank in Northrend dungeons. Using the talents available to me to address that came with an enormous penalty to my damage output...who would have thought 10-15 talents could make such a difference? DK aren't the uber zomfg do anything with one spec and one set of gear class. Geared and specced properly, they can put out damage on par with an equally geared/specced DPS warrior. They can also tank adequately...if geared and specced properly.
In PvP, they shine vs. casters. That's what they're supposed to do. It's pretty ridiculous to say, "zomfg that DK just roflstomped that mage they are OP!" when DKs were...designed as an anti-caster class. WOO! DK are doing what they were designed to do! zomfg!
It's too early in the lifespan of the DK to label them as glaringly OP. Every other class in the game has been around since vanilla and not only has Blizzard had time to tweak and adjust, players have had time to learn the abilities and develop counters for them. DK saw some nerfs aimed at their PvP performance already...now we wait and see how it pans out for the next few weeks.
zepoodle wrote:
AMS isn't a defensive ability at all, at least not in the same way. AMS is designed to protect the DK while he's beating the crap out of a caster.
Edited, Jan 26th 2009 9:40am by digitalcraft
Recent Visitors: 234
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (234)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- DK Bubble(ant magic shell)
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC