Bloodsurge :(Follow

Well, I'm kinda bummed about the change to bloodsurge. Before I could time it with my rotation, now it's more of a matter of luck. Anyone else have any thoughts on this change? I'm also kinda miffed about the change to the Whirlwind glyph. I didn't even know it happened until I went into 10 man Naxx last night, it totally screwed with my rotation as well. Granted my Guildies still have a while to catch up with me, but seeing the drop of about 300 DPS in raids was a bummer :( I hate the way the armory only list stats while in Battle stance... so don't forget to add the 3% crit and 10% increased AP :D Armory link in signature.

Edited, Jan 21st 2009 8:20am by smdked

This really is not a nerf. It does absolutely nothing to your rotations. If you have decent gear, it will continue to proc on a regular basis. With any sort of decent rage generation, heroic strike should keep it up fairly regularly, in addition to your WWs and BTs. If it comes at an odd time in your rotation? Nobody is forcing you to spam your slam button as soon as you see it proc. Wait it out if you need to, and use it 1-2 GCDs later. Really, it won't kill anybody. The proc doesn't go away if you don't use it for your next attack. Fury has to pay attention to more than the 2 button rotation they had before, QQ.

Edit: Did some quick napkin math. In a standard fury rotation, over 2 minutes, you will see 24 BTs. Assuming a 50% crit rate as a fury warrior, that would mean that you would see 12 BS procs over that period of time with the old version. If you take the new version, you will see 24 BTs, 12 WWs, and assuming a 2.5 speed swing timer on your MH attacks, you will see 24 HS if you only use HS every OTHER swing. Any decently geared fury warrior should have enough rage generation to maintain this sort of rotation, and they should be special and expertise capped by this point in time. Can you guess how many procs that crunches out to be on average? 12. This isn't a nerf in any form, and as you get better gear it will scale up because of increased rage generation and being able to dump HS more often. If you were able to dump a HS every swing (which I realize is not ALWAYS possible, but there are definitely times when it can be done), you will move up to 16.8 procs in that window. You have 5 seconds from the time of the proc, until your buff wears off. Unless you have the reaction time of a 5 year old, that's more than enough time to use the next attack in your rotation AND pull your BS off.

In closing: Warriors need to quit whining. Arms aside, we're in a pretty damn good position, pretty close to the best it's been in years.

Edited, Jan 21st 2009 3:34pm by FletusSanguine

Ok, with the 10 second WW CD and 5 second BT cooldown, slam was INSTANT as Bloddsurge proc'd. Now that it procs off of 3 different abilities, the DPS does go down since you might have to wait for the right "time" to use your "instant" slam. To put it plainly, let's say for this example that rage is always in abundant supply:
Before change...
0.0 sec BT
3.0 sec WW
5.0 sec BT
10.0 sec BT
13.0 sec WW
15.0 sec BT
20.0 sec BT
23.0 sec WW .....etc with Heroic strike used as often as you have rage. With this rotation you can instant slam right after the GCD of a BT crit and not miss a beat with your rotation.
After change...
0.0 sec BT
3.0 sec WW
5.0 sec BT
10.0 sec BT
13.0 sec WW
15.0 sec BT
20.0 sec BT
23.0 sec WW ... etc with heroic strike as well when you can. Now the problem arises in 2 places. 1 if it procs off of a WW, that pushes your next BT back a second if you use the instant slam and thus your entire rotation as well. If it procs off of HS, then who knows what it can do to your rotation since normal attacks vary in speed with various things(flurry, Windfury, etc.). Do you wait and find an open spot in your normal rotation to use it, which of course then you have the chance of missing the next proc which might have happened on the special attack you waitied to use instead of the instant slam...or use it and push your rotation? Basically it is no longer a calculated attack, it's just pure luck on if it actually helps at all. And I still do very well DPS wise, just bummed about the change.

Edited, Jan 21st 2009 6:31pm by smdked

Ok, again, I'm only complaining about the bloodsurge proc. I'm very happy about the hit penalty removed. And it's only 20% proc off WW, BT, or HS attacks that land, which again brings me to the point that sometimes you might miss a proc if you wait and make sure your BT and WW are on CD. With it being Crit based off of one attack it was much easier to fit it in and make sure it was a pure boost. Now it's keep your rotation and possibly miss a proc, or take the proc and change your rotation. Granted the added AP and Crit from switching hit gear out will more than make up for the "possible" difference to bloodsurge...and hit should be no lower than 231 to make sure your yellows hit. you can afford to drop another 34 hit if you have heroic presence. Yeah, all changes are collectively a buff.

Then we are both wrong. When I take off some of my gear, get my hit to 190, % to hit without precision is 5.83% which is still under capped... I was wrong with my number of 231...possibly 194 is hit cap to get you your 9% with precision. lower with heroic presence. And of course I'm talking about hitting a raid boss, not a mob your level.

Edited, Jan 21st 2009 7:10pm by smdked

i have been playing a warrior before you were a twinkle in both your mothers eyes, lorimath and this sucks.



you kind of contradicted your self there, saying that the RNG screwed you then saying a RNG of 30% is good.

also i think you will find it's only a 20% chance that includes other specials.

Even if it was 30% chance, its still totally down to RNG which sucks. I prefer a crit base proc to a completely RNG proc as you cannot trust te RNG, i learned this when i played my rogue and had 4/5 in seal fate, whould it proc? BULLshÃt would it

I went thorugh the entire COT heroic today and got ALOT les procs than i did the last 3 weeks due to this so called 'buff'



Specials cap is now only 8% not 9% as it used to be =)

Edited, Jan 21st 2009 8:37pm by redbarronthesecond

My point was that even though Bloodsurge seems to be more RNG based now that it's a percent to proc on other specials including BT, it should proc more because I often ran into streaks where everything EXCEPT FOR BT crit. This seems to be what I'm hearing from most warriors, that Bloodsurge now procs more often than it did before.

As I said, I would frequently go a minute or LONGER without Bloodthirst critting, but EVERYTHING else critting almost constantly. It's RNG. Raid buffed in my dps gear I am over 40% crit. That's quite a bit. And BT would still have dry periods without critting. With this change, the chance for Bloodsurge to proc has INCREASED. This is consistent with what warriors are seeing ACROSS THE BOARD.

I admit I jumped the gun with my post about it without actually giving it time in game to try it out first. Now that I have, I see the proc rate hasn't really changed much at all, and possibly increased. You might have a minute where it procs like every 5 seconds, and you might go for about 2 minutes without a proc, but it all averages out OK. Kinda just got used to the fact I knew when it had a chance to proc rather than enjoying it when it did. And the reason it was messing with my rotation at first was due to the WW glyph dropping WW cd to 8 seconds...didn't even know that happened until half way through the run. I use Mik's scrolling battle text and it's fabulous for announcing those Bloddsurge procs. I recomend it for any warrior. I had around 4k DPS on 25 OS tonight, so I am very pleased :)

Edited, Jan 21st 2009 11:04pm by smdked

True, that would have been nice, but that would have made it pretty much the same as the original SD, when it was based on crits ... the changed that away from crit for a reason ... the same reason they would not make BS crit based now.

Also, having BS proc 100% on 4 different attacks (counting WW as 2) would be an insane buff to Fury.. Not that I would mind ofc, but that would be over the top.

As for how it's affected me .. I'm still only questing at this stage, so I can only provide that perspective, and I can only say I love it. I find myself watching my rage bar more often, so that I know when I can use HS more ... so that I can try and force a BS proc more often ... it's livened things up for me a whole lot, and I love it.

As for the BT glyph in combination with the BT healing change, I feel like a death knight now ... I quested for 4 hours last night, and didn't use a single bandage, piece of food, pot, nothing ... it was outstanding ... BT heals are ticking for 250, blood frenzy is ticking for around 150 ... and quite often, I'm healed to full within a few seconds of finishing a fight .. I can only imagine that this is what BT was like in the early Beta days, before the nerf.

Sorry for the thread highjack, but it didn't feel worthwhile starting a new thread to rave ;-).

Another thing to consider with WW is the fact if there are 2 or more mobs you are attacking at the same time. That also increases the proc chance. I'll admit that my first post was after a terrible 10 man Naxx run where we didn't have our normal group. Last night we did much better and I was easily over 3k DPS without an enhance shammy or kings :) During AoE fights, I had a proc almost after every WW :D After much more consideration, this change to bloodsurge is deffinately an all around buff.

I hate it when people say that, honestly. Who in the hell doesn't scale with better gear? This DW nerf that's also coming up irritates the hell out of me. The devs MO here makes absolutely no sense. I don't care how much you FEEL like an ability should or should not be doing, what matters is what the end result is. The fact of the matter is that fury DPS is perfectly in line with the other classes. We're not too weak, and we're not too strong. GC's justification of the nerf is that 'he doesn't feel that 20% of our DPS should come from deep wounds', but what about druids? I don't see the damage they deal from bleeds being put forth as a pariah. Hunters had most of their damage in BC coming from SS, and this wasn't seen as a problem. What this reads to me, personally, is "We intended for Deep Wounds to be a ****** source of damage, and it's not, so we're changing it so it is."

It's actually only 20% chance on hit of BT, WW and HS ... so in a fully raid buffed environment, you're looking at double the damage ... that's too much, I think.. especially when the change was not necessarily meant to be a damage buff, and more a change in plays style (waiting around every 5 seconds for a 30-40% chance of an instant slam sucked too much).