Last night we had a one of those rush-rush tanks who seemed to be getting hit pretty hard by the trash. The trash at the entrance of the instance
Me: Tank (name changed) What is your armor and def?
Tank: 21000 and 500.
Me: You have 21000 armor?
Hunter: You're crittable.
Tank: Yeah, why?
Me: Because you're squishy.
Hunter /w to me: This tank...
Me /w to Hunter: He's going to die, but I'll give him until the first boss
I look up the tank on the armory. 12.7 armor, 480 def.
Me: Tank, you've only got 12.7 armor, 480 def.
Tank: Why are you harassing me about this?
I figure time will tell. Pretty quickly, probably.
...
Tank and two of the DPS die (all in the same guild) because he chain pulls a 2nd drake before the first boss and his HP drops so fast it leaves a stain on the floor. The only survivors are me and the hunter.
I res everyone.
Me: You're not ready for heroics, Tank. Thanks everyone.
I left the group.
He tells me of course, learn to heal.
/Sigh.
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I forgot to mention that one of the DPSers in the group was a warlock who was doing his best to pull every bit of aggro from the monsters from the word go. At first I thought he was unlucky, but after 2 or 3 times of this I just stopped healing him.
It was comical to watch his health go down so fast, at which point he actually talked to the group about what was going on...while hiding behind me during the fights, literally.
I find myself approaching the position that if I don't know the DPS, I don't heal them. If I know someone and know that it is the occasional damage being taken, or that they do it for a good reason, then ok, otherwise as they say, pain is a good teacher.
It was comical to watch his health go down so fast, at which point he actually talked to the group about what was going on...while hiding behind me during the fights, literally.
I find myself approaching the position that if I don't know the DPS, I don't heal them. If I know someone and know that it is the occasional damage being taken, or that they do it for a good reason, then ok, otherwise as they say, pain is a good teacher.
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He tells me of course, learn to heal.
This is what every tank says when they realize that they aren't ready/geared/experienced for the instance their in.
Something I read on this board when I first rolled my priest which I still find true to this day...
If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault..except in cases of extreme stupidity by said tank.
If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault...except in cases of extreme stupidity by said healer.
If the dps die, it's their own fault, ESPECIALLY in cases of extreme stupidity by said dps.
It cracked me up when I first read it.... after my first instance as a main healer, I realized just how true it was.
Sounds to me like your tank and DPS were easily in the category of "extremely stupid."
Here's wishing you better luck on your next run!
Quote:
I'll give him until the first boss
Just don't! Need to make the decision to leave before engaging the boss. Else you'll find yourself saved to the instance.
I had a dps think he was a tank today.
A guildy ask me to heal Nexus today for his group, me being lvl 77 and Holy speced figured np.
His friend was a lvl 73 DK and was not the tank. The first time he died (Real quick I might add) the tank said let me do the pulling.
Well on the next pull, he death grips a mob and gets hit for 3/4 of his health. I start casting gheal on him and before it was even 1/3 casted he died.
His next remark was why did I not heal him.
I told hin that I could not cast a heal fast enough to keep him alive.
The DK and his friend left the party.
So you see it is not just the tanks out there that need to be geared for the lvl instance, the entire group needs to be.
Now in this case what am I suppose to do, an instant heal will not heal him enough to stay alive and there is no way to keep him alive with taken damage that fast?
A guildy ask me to heal Nexus today for his group, me being lvl 77 and Holy speced figured np.
His friend was a lvl 73 DK and was not the tank. The first time he died (Real quick I might add) the tank said let me do the pulling.
Well on the next pull, he death grips a mob and gets hit for 3/4 of his health. I start casting gheal on him and before it was even 1/3 casted he died.
His next remark was why did I not heal him.
I told hin that I could not cast a heal fast enough to keep him alive.
The DK and his friend left the party.
So you see it is not just the tanks out there that need to be geared for the lvl instance, the entire group needs to be.
Now in this case what am I suppose to do, an instant heal will not heal him enough to stay alive and there is no way to keep him alive with taken damage that fast?
Scholar
41 posts
Solohunter wrote:
Now in this case what am I suppose to do, an instant heal will not heal him enough to stay alive and there is no way to keep him alive with taken damage that fast?
When I see dps pull, I'll throw up a quick heal on them (assuming I can get one in time) and let the tank worry about pulling off the aggro. I will refuse to heal that dps again if he/she insists on trying to tank. It's their repair bill. I will heal any dps who obviously got unlucky aggro or aoe damage, but none that insists on pulling before the tank, or hitting the wrong kill. I'd rather 4 man it solo healing a main tank than try and keep up with a surprise off tank.
Respecced holy for my guild and tried a couple of pug heroics. I now check out the tanks gear before heading in.
I love seeing level 70 gear (I realise some epics are hard to replace, but certainly not all) and they get bonus points if they have part dps gear on (crit for tanks ftw!).
The difference in healing a tank which is properly geared is just amazing, and I'm not talking over-geared either, just in a) tanking loot and b) some focus on mitigation.
I love seeing level 70 gear (I realise some epics are hard to replace, but certainly not all) and they get bonus points if they have part dps gear on (crit for tanks ftw!).
The difference in healing a tank which is properly geared is just amazing, and I'm not talking over-geared either, just in a) tanking loot and b) some focus on mitigation.
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If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault...except in cases of extreme stupidity by said healer.
Not sure how you work that one out, though? If I ***** up majorly, push wrong buttons, freak out or whatever, it's usually the tank followed by a DPS who die, not me. The only way I can get myself killed is by not healing myself when I'm getting heavy damage (which would be the tank's fault) or by running blindly into a group of adds.
Quote:
His friend was a lvl 73 DK and was not the tank. The first time he died (Real quick I might add) the tank said let me do the pulling.
Well on the next pull, he death grips a mob and gets hit for 3/4 of his health. I start casting gheal on him and before it was even 1/3 casted he died.
His next remark was why did I not heal him.
I told hin that I could not cast a heal fast enough to keep him alive.
The DK and his friend left the party.
So you see it is not just the tanks out there that need to be geared for the lvl instance, the entire group needs to be.
Now in this case what am I suppose to do, an instant heal will not heal him enough to stay alive and there is no way to keep him alive with taken damage that fast?
Well on the next pull, he death grips a mob and gets hit for 3/4 of his health. I start casting gheal on him and before it was even 1/3 casted he died.
His next remark was why did I not heal him.
I told hin that I could not cast a heal fast enough to keep him alive.
The DK and his friend left the party.
So you see it is not just the tanks out there that need to be geared for the lvl instance, the entire group needs to be.
Now in this case what am I suppose to do, an instant heal will not heal him enough to stay alive and there is no way to keep him alive with taken damage that fast?
Power Word: Shield is your friend. I do think you're right up to some point (he's the one aggroing and in the end it's his own fault that he died), but just don't start up a greater heal on somebody on 1/4th of his his points while in combat, ever.
This weekend in different pugs:
- Had a warlock that soulstoned himself. He was level 80.
- Had a DK that ran out of corpse dust early on in H Old Kingdom. Then he gave himself res sickness instead of walking 40 yards to the instance and back out.
- I learned not to heal Ret Pallies if they don't have aggro. Seal of the Martyr can go to hell.
- I solidified my position that I don't heal DPS any farther than throwing a Renew on them. When they die and ask why I didn't heal them, I give them the unarguable response "You took aggro."
- I had several groups where people stood around between pulls and wouldn't eat or bandage. I guess they were expecting me to heal them then use the drinks I bought, which didn't happen. Some of them were just plain oblivious and would run into combat with 10% health.
- Had one underperforming DPS (the DK from above about the corpse dust) that would stay dead after a wipe instead of running back with everyone else. I would res him with a rank 1 res and not throw him any heals (and he would stand there, see above). Eventually told him to run back with everyone else.
- Had a warlock that soulstoned himself. He was level 80.
- Had a DK that ran out of corpse dust early on in H Old Kingdom. Then he gave himself res sickness instead of walking 40 yards to the instance and back out.
- I learned not to heal Ret Pallies if they don't have aggro. Seal of the Martyr can go to hell.
- I solidified my position that I don't heal DPS any farther than throwing a Renew on them. When they die and ask why I didn't heal them, I give them the unarguable response "You took aggro."
- I had several groups where people stood around between pulls and wouldn't eat or bandage. I guess they were expecting me to heal them then use the drinks I bought, which didn't happen. Some of them were just plain oblivious and would run into combat with 10% health.
- Had one underperforming DPS (the DK from above about the corpse dust) that would stay dead after a wipe instead of running back with everyone else. I would res him with a rank 1 res and not throw him any heals (and he would stand there, see above). Eventually told him to run back with everyone else.
Mozared,
Good advice on using pw:s, that way I would have time to get a heal off on him. Even though I am speced Holy I have to remember to use all the spells at my disposal. PW:S is not just for Dis priest.
This is the kind of advice that will hopefully make me a better healer :)
Good advice on using pw:s, that way I would have time to get a heal off on him. Even though I am speced Holy I have to remember to use all the spells at my disposal. PW:S is not just for Dis priest.
This is the kind of advice that will hopefully make me a better healer :)
I've become hesitant to use PW:S on recalcitrant DPS lately, because a couple of times I've needed it right away on the tank who started taking some large hits.
I don't want to punish DPS, and if I know the person or I can tell it wasn't a dps-meter aggro-grab, then I don't have a problem with doing the most I can to keep them alive (after the tank). But in a PUG I found it much easier to "train" DPS by giving them support, but at a much reduced level compared to the tank.
Edited, Jan 20th 2009 4:25pm by Xert
Edited, Jan 20th 2009 4:26pm by Xert
I don't want to punish DPS, and if I know the person or I can tell it wasn't a dps-meter aggro-grab, then I don't have a problem with doing the most I can to keep them alive (after the tank). But in a PUG I found it much easier to "train" DPS by giving them support, but at a much reduced level compared to the tank.
Edited, Jan 20th 2009 4:25pm by Xert
Edited, Jan 20th 2009 4:26pm by Xert
I started instances on my priest a few days ago, at 65 (Multibox + RAF boosts up till then, so not really played the class except for my 19 twink priest). Managed to clear Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Underbog, Slave Pens and Steamvault (at 66, with an 80 tank, and the other 65+66 pulling a lot when they got AoE feared). Pugged with a lot of DKs, but most can do the job fine, and everything went well, even with me having very little experience as a priest (I want to get plenty before I hit 80 and start looking for a raiding guild, so I'm levelling in instances).
However, at 67 I got invited into a group of 4x L60-62 DKs to do their first SP or UB (while I was in LFG for instances in Terrokar), and ended up quitting group on them before we'd even got round the first corner of UB.
They started pulling before I'd even got into the instance, so I got in in time to rescue the 3 left alive, blowing all my mana keeping them alive when they were already in the red, and finishing it off with the rez and topping them up because they didn't eat.
Then when they were all healed they just ran round the corner, pulled the patrolling sporebats and a couple of groups of elementals and ended up wiping completely.
My response?
"Seriously, L2P or you can find yourselves a new healer".
So far they've failed to decide who is the tank, there are 2 unholy presence and 2 blood on everyone, and they're asking what happened.
During the walk back I point out their 3 main mistakes:
1. They pulled before the healer had mana.
2. There was no tank, so there was more damage being taken than there should have been. "Find out who has best armor, +def and +agi, they put on frost presence, they're tank".
3. They ran round a corner pulling several groups, because they didn't know the instance, and were rushing.
I get back into the instance, so half health and mana.
They pull. Still no-one with frost presence.
I promptly leave group.
I'm glad I gave up on them. As soon as I was back in Shattrath I got an invite from the L70 hunter who joined us part way through the SV run, then another from one of the L66 DKs I did my first BF + ramps runs with, and we joined up and completed both Auchenai Crypts then Mana Tombs. Mana Tombs right to the final boss as a group of 4, then we had an absolute hoot doing the final escort quest with just me, a 66DK and a 66 mage. SO close to wiping so many times. SO glad I have every spell/usable item available macro'd, because I think I used them all.
Healing instances as a holy priest is the most fun I've had in a long time, so I'm glad I chose it to be my new main.
Edited, Feb 20th 2009 11:00pm by polarityjp
However, at 67 I got invited into a group of 4x L60-62 DKs to do their first SP or UB (while I was in LFG for instances in Terrokar), and ended up quitting group on them before we'd even got round the first corner of UB.
They started pulling before I'd even got into the instance, so I got in in time to rescue the 3 left alive, blowing all my mana keeping them alive when they were already in the red, and finishing it off with the rez and topping them up because they didn't eat.
Then when they were all healed they just ran round the corner, pulled the patrolling sporebats and a couple of groups of elementals and ended up wiping completely.
My response?
"Seriously, L2P or you can find yourselves a new healer".
So far they've failed to decide who is the tank, there are 2 unholy presence and 2 blood on everyone, and they're asking what happened.
During the walk back I point out their 3 main mistakes:
1. They pulled before the healer had mana.
2. There was no tank, so there was more damage being taken than there should have been. "Find out who has best armor, +def and +agi, they put on frost presence, they're tank".
3. They ran round a corner pulling several groups, because they didn't know the instance, and were rushing.
I get back into the instance, so half health and mana.
They pull. Still no-one with frost presence.
I promptly leave group.
I'm glad I gave up on them. As soon as I was back in Shattrath I got an invite from the L70 hunter who joined us part way through the SV run, then another from one of the L66 DKs I did my first BF + ramps runs with, and we joined up and completed both Auchenai Crypts then Mana Tombs. Mana Tombs right to the final boss as a group of 4, then we had an absolute hoot doing the final escort quest with just me, a 66DK and a 66 mage. SO close to wiping so many times. SO glad I have every spell/usable item available macro'd, because I think I used them all.
Healing instances as a holy priest is the most fun I've had in a long time, so I'm glad I chose it to be my new main.
Edited, Feb 20th 2009 11:00pm by polarityjp
Quote:
He tells me of course, learn to heal.
Quote:
This is what every bad tank says when they realize that they aren't ready/geared/experienced for the instance their in.
FTFY
Good tanks know that they are undergeared and were probably testing their limits.
edit: added the first quote for clarity
Edited, Feb 21st 2009 4:48pm by Horsemouth
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
Mozared,
Good advice on using pw:s, that way I would have time to get a heal off on him. Even though I am speced Holy I have to remember to use all the spells at my disposal. PW:S is not just for Dis priest.
This is the kind of advice that will hopefully make me a better healer :)
Good advice on using pw:s, that way I would have time to get a heal off on him. Even though I am speced Holy I have to remember to use all the spells at my disposal. PW:S is not just for Dis priest.
This is the kind of advice that will hopefully make me a better healer :)
I love ya Mozard! You know it, as I've learned so much from you and the gang. And maybe he got crit... like 3 times in a row... or maybe you are a talented enought healer to bubble, renew and flash/gheal.... but you'll never get past the first boss.
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He tells me of course, learn to heal.
I love this one. I was in a pug not to long ago (within the last 2 weeks) and had another of those big headed ego Death Knights (starting to think they were the worst add to WoW). He was a fast puller too. Now don't get me wrong. I group with some fokes from Presence and there is a druid tank that I love to run with. He pulls fast, and moves fast... and watches my mana (almost for me lol!!). T8 geared, can take it all and then some. This DK was a far cry from even a tank.
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The difference in healing a tank which is properly geared is just amazing, and I'm not talking over-geared either, just in a) tanking loot and b) some focus on mitigation
Live, Love, Laugh.
Doing H-GD last night, the daily, and we wipe 3 times on the first boss because the group insists on fighting him in the first room. After pointing out (again) that I can't remove poison and that the pally in the group (ret) can, he becomes irate and threatens to quit the group. I ask "Why?" and he replies "I've never had to do anything but DPS before." and follows through on leaving the group.
So we get a DPS replacement in about 3 seconds, and the group decides to follow my advice and clear the second room (with the bone mounds) and pull the boss to there.
We down him in one shot and I heal the one person through poison who was tagged.
So we get a DPS replacement in about 3 seconds, and the group decides to follow my advice and clear the second room (with the bone mounds) and pull the boss to there.
We down him in one shot and I heal the one person through poison who was tagged.
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"I've never had to do anything but DPS before."
ROFL!!!
I'm spoiled. I run with Detirx, Zetta, and Krowdkontrol on Akama on a regular basis (we grab someone from their guild to fill the spots). They know their class, they know the instances, and even Zetta who has been playing for a meer 4 months not only knows her class, but uses it to the max. We have been playing for about 2 months together and have it down. Come to think of it, we should start a 4v4 team.... meh. It's sad to hear that you had such a loser in your pug, but they are out there in swarms....11 million people can be dorks!!! :)
OH Yeah, and dps are a dime a dozzen. Now finding a good one, that's the trick. At least you can fill their slots pretty fast. I hate having to look for a tank!
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- I learned not to heal Ret Pallies if they don't have aggro. Seal of the Martyr can go to hell.
Do you mean that you won't heal a Retri Pally who is only taking damage from Martyr? The incoming damage is so low that a renew once in a while will suffice. Also, due to a pally gaining mana back from the heals received then this allows the pally to continue to DPS for a longer period of time/use all of his mana intensive abilities. More DPS = shorter fights = less strain on healing all for the sake of a renew or two.
As to the Ret who would not cleanse they need to get healbot or better yet decursive. Point, click, win.
Edited, Feb 25th 2009 9:55am by KevMc
I'm a disc healer. I use renew on the dps, the tank gets the special love. I pug almost all my runs, so I feel your pain. I've had those groups. My most recent was regular UK. I was on my 74 hunter. Had a lvl 68 pally tank, 68 ret, 72 spriest, 70 priest. The pally tank gave it the ole college try, but as he was just 68 with no Northrend gear, he didn't have the stam, much less any mitigation to help. My pet ended up off tanking a bit, until the group called it quits.
#19REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 25 2009 at 12:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Pallys bring so much to the table, it was sad to see someone give truth to Retardin misnomer.
Quote:
(Edit: Yes, I do heal DPS during fights, I don't heal self-inflicted wounds however)
If you take the above stance and "force" the ret pally to use a different seal then you get much the same issue as the quote below
Quote:
But I won't heal a DPS mechanism that rewards a player for draining the healer's mana pool. Often enough I'm stuck with PUGs who are undergeared (had a 600dps DK last night in H-Nex, I left after the 5th wipe when we spent 5 (five) minutes on Anom and didn't get him down past 40%) and I need to focus on the tank
I think the main issue is that you are pugging, you need to get a solid group of guildies to run with you, even if they are relatively under-geared at first you will get there in the end.
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Don't get me wrong, I try to keep the entire group alive and healing through tough fights is a lot of fun. But I'm not going to encourage the use of a mechanic that when abused ultimately harms my mana pool and the party's success.
Not sure what you mean by abused. They use Martyr to get the most bang out of the seal, if all start using a different one then the stigma that surrounded ret with the poor DPS will come back to haunt them. Maybe ask them to judge light upfront to reduce the healing needed.
Quote:
I've seen a pally drop herself down to 10% using it on trash in H-CoS actually
Was this one pull? If it was I want to know what her DPS was.
#21REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 26 2009 at 10:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It was between the start and the first boss. She was doing 2k+ DPS. Between the damage she was taking by using SoM and the mobs themselves she was pulling down as much healing as an undergeared tank. It was a clear case of DPS trying to top the meters and burn through content instead of working within the group framework.
KevMc wrote:
I think the main issue is that you are pugging, you need to get a solid group of guildies to run with you, even if they are relatively under-geared at first you will get there in the end.
You know why pugs suck? They don't.
If someone has to choose between healing self-injured DPS (such as a lifetapping warlock or a paladin using seal of blood) and keeping the tank alive, then of course the healer should focus on the tank. The tank always takes priority.
But to refuse to heal self-injured DPS in any circumstance is to be a prima donna. Self-injuring class mechanics aren’t the same as standing in hazards or drawing aggro, because they lose health in a controllable, predictable way and boost DPS significantly. Besides, ret paladins keep our mana pools full with replenishment; the least we can do is toss them an extra renew from time to time. Especially since seal of blood keeps prayer of mending bouncing back to the tank.
Yes, they can heal themselves. But we are better at it, quicker and more efficient. If we heal to the best our ability, freeing them up to DPS to the best of their ability, instances go faster and smoother.
But to refuse to heal self-injured DPS in any circumstance is to be a prima donna. Self-injuring class mechanics aren’t the same as standing in hazards or drawing aggro, because they lose health in a controllable, predictable way and boost DPS significantly. Besides, ret paladins keep our mana pools full with replenishment; the least we can do is toss them an extra renew from time to time. Especially since seal of blood keeps prayer of mending bouncing back to the tank.
Yes, they can heal themselves. But we are better at it, quicker and more efficient. If we heal to the best our ability, freeing them up to DPS to the best of their ability, instances go faster and smoother.
emmitsvenson wrote:
But to refuse to heal self-injured DPS in any circumstance is to be a prima donna. Self-injuring class mechanics aren’t the same as standing in hazards or drawing aggro, because they lose health in a controllable, predictable way and boost DPS significantly. Besides, ret paladins keep our mana pools full with replenishment; the least we can do is toss them an extra renew from time to time. Especially since seal of blood keeps prayer of mending bouncing back to the tank.
In a raid, during a boss fight, then the team should be going all out to win the fight. That includes using self-injuring talents as well.
This discussion is about PUGs. Specifically, examples are given for 5-man PUGs. There is no need for any self-injuring abilities in any heroic 5-man pug. If there is, then the group is unprepared in gear or experience. They help, but there is no requirement for them.
And even if a retadin decides to use SoM, if they have any skill they aren't going to abuse it in the way I've been discussing. If the damage they take is so noticeable that I'm contemplating putting anything more than a renew on them then they are abusing it and they won't be getting heals.
Quote:
If we heal to the best our ability, freeing them up to DPS to the best of their ability, instances go faster and smoother.
You write as if heals are free, when they aren't. When DPS becomes high maintenance they cease to a boon to the group and start to hold it back through longer breaks between pulls (healer mana), rezzing, and running back from deaths or wipes.
This is nothing about being a prima dona, it is entirely about being practical and weighing how much of my resources I'll allow DPS to draw upon so that they can top a meter at the cost of the rest of the group.
A good healer knows who they would have to let die when push comes to shove in order for the group to win, this is the same thing.
Quote:
This discussion is about PUGs. Specifically, examples are given for 5-man PUGs. There is no need for any self-injuring abilities in any heroic 5-man pug. If there is, then the group is unprepared in gear or experience.
Let's rewrite those last 2 sentences:
There is no need for drastic prioritizing of heals in any heroic 5-man pug. If there is, then the healer is unprepared in gear or experience.
If you can't handle throwing a Renew on a life-tapping Warlock - which is after all just a transfer of mana - or get ticked off by a Shadow Priest using SW:Death, then something is quite obviously wrong with your performance as a healer. If you're letting people die on purpose, you might just not have the right philosophy for being a healer in the first place.
You're free to **** and moan after a pull, but if you find yourself in a position where you're making life-and-death decisions during a pull that go beyond the standard healing priorities, you're wasting time that could and should be better spent doing your job - which is healing.
You know EXACTLY the risks associated with playing in a PuG. But you're putting your desire for loot an badges over those the moment you enter LFG, which ultimately means that you have to blame nobody but yourself if things should go wrong. You're making a commitment to this group of people you don't even know, and not giving anything you could regardless of the situation makes you look just as bad as those people conveniently blamed for the failure.
There are guilds to allow you to surround yourself with people you know and trust. There are plenty of addons that help you remember people you've had good or bad experiences with. You don't have to blindly run into a PuG, but if greed wins against common sense, don't blame others.
Some of my guild's most valued members are people we picked up during PuGs. I wouldn't want to miss out on those and what brought them into our ranks in the first place.
Quote:
A good healer knows who they would have to let die
No. A good healer doesn't "let" anybody die. A good healer does whatever he can to keep everybody alive, and feels terribly sorry if he fails at that. You're trying to play God, not healer.
Kanngarnix wrote:
You're trying to play God, not healer.
I tried that once, turns out I was a paladin, and eventually forced to heal anyway... so I re-rolled.
PS. This discussion has gotten kind of ridiculous. PuGs can be stupid, heal who you can heal, live with it or move on.
If you go out of mana because you are spending a good portion of your time healing an overzealous DPSer who likes to use moves that cause self inflicted damage, then you can say something to the party.
If you let a DPS die, while your sitting on a marginal amount of mana, then it was your responsibility to heal them and you failed, regardless of how retarded they are.
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