And I am pretty sure that is going down tomorrow, 3 drakes 25 man is 1 shottable now.
I keep coming back to one thing, Naxxramas was a terrible choice and tainted the beginning of Wotlk raiding. It is pre-bc trash content that is not balanced to lvl 70 spells, let alone lvl 80. Most of the Naxx boss fights are actually less involved and complex than lvl 70 5 man heroic bosses. Quaint for lore, nice for people who didn't get to see it but so completely out of place in terms of current day raiding that it sticks out like a sore thumb.
The fact that it is 9 of the 11 bosses of Tier 7 raiding means it really skews how people perceive raiding in Wotlk.
Sartharion and Malygos while not particularly hard are exceptionally well designed fights. Malygos with the sparks is a nice little mechanic needed to buff DPS to beat enrage with the added bonus of failing = excessive burst damage. P2 has random damage across raid with spikes as well as a need to dps, spike damage from breath etc. Finally a nifty little drake at the end with a simple "watch for focus". Hell you could increase his dps by 10%, his damage output by a little as well and you have a fight that has more going on than most BT fights and would be just as challenging. Then there is Sartharion, which is such a brilliant shift in raid design that it boggles the mind. Instead of stupid attuments that are bound to be removed at some point, or some gear wall that is later trivialed by badge gear releases we are given content that everyone can experience but with scaling challenge. Great content, solid fight, lots going on with 2 or three drakes up it challenges most aspect of the raid all at once.
I think Malygos and Sarth are a true step up from TBC raiding and set a good tone, but first you have to get past the stillbirth that is Naxx which after Burning Crusade, and with Sarth and Malygos on the other side of it just sticks out like a sore thumb and is just dated, skilless trash content that should never have been brought back.
Edited, Jan 16th 2009 12:22am by bodhisattva
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So all that is left is 10 man 3 drakesFollow
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Naxx was too easy. I think people get it by now, yet people keep complaining over and over again. Seriously, get off your high horse already. I think you just post crap like this to revel in your own self-perceived superiority.
It's been explain and re-explained numerous times the whys of what you just posted: why Naxx, why the ease of the content, etc.., but nobody pays any attention to that. It's also been stated that Naxx was designed as entry level and that raiding WILL get more difficult in the future, starting with Ulduar (of which I recently read they have promised more "hard mode" type encounters like Sartharion + drakes). If it really bothers you so much, and not just Bod but all the other people that have been complaining non-stop since first seeing the new Naxx, go PvP. That's not your thing? Quit the game. There's obviously some thing in this game that is keeping you around despite whatever shortcomings you see, so why do you feel the need to keep coming at the rest of us with this kind of dribble?
Not everyone here was in leet guilds who farmed original Naxx, AQ, BT, and Sunwell. Some of us actually play the game to, you know, enjoy it. Some of us aren't so pessimistic as to claim the current content is complete trash and future content can't be anything but more of the same. We get that you were fortunate enough to see what many of us did not. You throw it around every chance you get. But honestly, I don't think anyone cares.
/endrant
It's been explain and re-explained numerous times the whys of what you just posted: why Naxx, why the ease of the content, etc.., but nobody pays any attention to that. It's also been stated that Naxx was designed as entry level and that raiding WILL get more difficult in the future, starting with Ulduar (of which I recently read they have promised more "hard mode" type encounters like Sartharion + drakes). If it really bothers you so much, and not just Bod but all the other people that have been complaining non-stop since first seeing the new Naxx, go PvP. That's not your thing? Quit the game. There's obviously some thing in this game that is keeping you around despite whatever shortcomings you see, so why do you feel the need to keep coming at the rest of us with this kind of dribble?
Not everyone here was in leet guilds who farmed original Naxx, AQ, BT, and Sunwell. Some of us actually play the game to, you know, enjoy it. Some of us aren't so pessimistic as to claim the current content is complete trash and future content can't be anything but more of the same. We get that you were fortunate enough to see what many of us did not. You throw it around every chance you get. But honestly, I don't think anyone cares.
/endrant
Bod does kinda have a point. Have you ever walked through a 5man heroic and said "is this even on heroic?". I did H HoL 2 nights ago cuz i realized i haven't do it at all yet. by accident we got the 3 acheivements and i got the heroic acheivement. This seems to be the tone for all the 5mans(save Occ and some UP hiccups). Granted heroics are supposed to be badge grinders, but at least BC had some tough but fun ones.
This carries over to raiding. As long as everyone does their part with some competence, the encounters become trivial. Again, heroics and achievements add a nice touch to the monotony, but end up just being a gear test more than anything.
I think for LK everybody was buffed and every class was homogenized. The content was not prepared accordingly. They may introduce new, harder raids but we are still left with easy mode on the daily content. PUG H Vault anyone?
This carries over to raiding. As long as everyone does their part with some competence, the encounters become trivial. Again, heroics and achievements add a nice touch to the monotony, but end up just being a gear test more than anything.
I think for LK everybody was buffed and every class was homogenized. The content was not prepared accordingly. They may introduce new, harder raids but we are still left with easy mode on the daily content. PUG H Vault anyone?
This was actually meant for the main board, which is where I took it.
Where I tried a little more successfully to fully get my point across. It isnt about Easy or Hard it is about Fun. Now true, fun is subjective however my point is that the fights in Naxx are so dated, so surpassed by even the most rudimentary Burning Crusade content that they end up coming off as nothing more than 4 hours of tank and spank encounters with a brief running stint on Heigan.
I liked Kara, I will admit I hated it when I had Vashj down before Maiden dropped the healing mace but there are some fun fights and it made for some fun drunken raiding with friends. Naxx is just boring, uninteresting, repetitive, not balanced to lvl 70 or 80 spells and abilities and really really shows its age. Bring on Ulduar and actual content, not rehashed trash that is completely out of place.
Where I tried a little more successfully to fully get my point across. It isnt about Easy or Hard it is about Fun. Now true, fun is subjective however my point is that the fights in Naxx are so dated, so surpassed by even the most rudimentary Burning Crusade content that they end up coming off as nothing more than 4 hours of tank and spank encounters with a brief running stint on Heigan.
I liked Kara, I will admit I hated it when I had Vashj down before Maiden dropped the healing mace but there are some fun fights and it made for some fun drunken raiding with friends. Naxx is just boring, uninteresting, repetitive, not balanced to lvl 70 or 80 spells and abilities and really really shows its age. Bring on Ulduar and actual content, not rehashed trash that is completely out of place.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Bodhi, stop whinging.
bodhisattva wrote:
This was actually meant for the main board, which is where I took it.
O.K. bodh, in that case I'm going to hijack this one.
bodhisattva wrote:
I will admit I hated it when I had Vashj down before Maiden dropped the healing mace. . ..
For me it was the Boots of Valiance that never dropped. I wore purple cloth slippers (check the color of those suckers) well into ZA before finally breaking down and getting the badge boots. Stubborn is stubborn.
Edited, Jan 17th 2009 11:51am by cynyck
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
Maiden was a *****.
I had Felsteel Gloves right up until we downed Leo. T5 dropped first go too, I basically said "$%(* you all, they're mine" (with their agreement of course.. I'm not a bully). Maiden just wouldn't cooperate... nor would she cooperate with her necklace for the longest time either.
My Alliance pally (when I still played it) didn't even get the healing mace off of Maiden before I quit playing Alliance.
I had Felsteel Gloves right up until we downed Leo. T5 dropped first go too, I basically said "$%(* you all, they're mine" (with their agreement of course.. I'm not a bully). Maiden just wouldn't cooperate... nor would she cooperate with her necklace for the longest time either.
My Alliance pally (when I still played it) didn't even get the healing mace off of Maiden before I quit playing Alliance.
Quote:
So all that is left is 10 man 3 drakes
Now what are you going to do with your life?
I keed I keed. I started the game to late in vannilla (coming over from FFXI) to raid Naxx so to me its still fun so far. We are not in a hurry though, we just started it after the holiday's and only raid 2 nights a week. I sure do love being a pally these days. We were shy an offtank this week so I respeced and put on the tank set I have been collecting on the side. Tank, Heal, or DPS...I can do it all now woot!
Edited, Jan 17th 2009 5:38pm by Shojindo
less involved than 70 heroics lol. I think not. Most 70 heroics were just tank and spanks. Some had adds, and some form of elemental damage. But they were just spanks. They just happened to hit fairly hard.
Naxx is a decent raid instance. Lore wise it seems kind of "forced" into Northrend. I really don't think it's that much easier than Kara. Kara was very easy once you get past Moroes. The main difference as I pointed out, Kara had a tough battle on the second boss. This was good as it taught guilds how to work together before progressing to the rest of the instance.
Naxx is a decent raid instance. Lore wise it seems kind of "forced" into Northrend. I really don't think it's that much easier than Kara. Kara was very easy once you get past Moroes. The main difference as I pointed out, Kara had a tough battle on the second boss. This was good as it taught guilds how to work together before progressing to the rest of the instance.
Every boss in Heroic MGT, Loken in HoL (wotlk!), Nethermancer Sepethrea in Mechanar, just to name a couple are so completely beyond Gothik, Loatheb, Noth etc. I could dig up a few more in BC and Wotlk if I wanted.
Thrashering tangentially brings up an important point. T4 in Wotlk was basically a tutorial for raiding. Blizzard was unhappy with the transition from 5 man content to 40 man raiding in Vanilla WoW, this was partly addressed with the release of Zul'gurub 20 man, but that was well into the life cycle of original WoW. So we had Karazhan a 10 man instance that one boss at a time tought you important concepts in raiding. Moroes would come back for Fathom Lord, Kaelthas in TK:EyE and again for Illidari Council in BT. Nightbane was a new type of Sapphiron and came back again for Felmyst in SWP. AoE charges on players from constructs would come back on Solarian. Gruul a tank and spank dps check would come back in Brutallus.
It wasn't hard and it was never supposed to be, it was supposed to build and teach the tools that would form key skills later in raiding. That is where it succeeded. Naxxramas doesn't do this, it is merely recycled content with no balance around new skills and abilities. It is horribly unbalanced from wing to wing, and features boss mechanics that as I have said to the point of beating a deadhorse are not building tools or setting us up for things to come but rather are 3 years old and completely irrelevant.
Thrashering tangentially brings up an important point. T4 in Wotlk was basically a tutorial for raiding. Blizzard was unhappy with the transition from 5 man content to 40 man raiding in Vanilla WoW, this was partly addressed with the release of Zul'gurub 20 man, but that was well into the life cycle of original WoW. So we had Karazhan a 10 man instance that one boss at a time tought you important concepts in raiding. Moroes would come back for Fathom Lord, Kaelthas in TK:EyE and again for Illidari Council in BT. Nightbane was a new type of Sapphiron and came back again for Felmyst in SWP. AoE charges on players from constructs would come back on Solarian. Gruul a tank and spank dps check would come back in Brutallus.
It wasn't hard and it was never supposed to be, it was supposed to build and teach the tools that would form key skills later in raiding. That is where it succeeded. Naxxramas doesn't do this, it is merely recycled content with no balance around new skills and abilities. It is horribly unbalanced from wing to wing, and features boss mechanics that as I have said to the point of beating a deadhorse are not building tools or setting us up for things to come but rather are 3 years old and completely irrelevant.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Original Naxx was in a strange position as far as Vanilla raiding went. The idea was to make it challenging for 60s, and indeed it was, but within the core raid model that Blizzard had at the time. Meaning, the fights weren't particularly difficult but they required a bunch of level 60s to put up pretty strict minimum numbers, which meant they needed to be well geared and know how to take advantage of their abilities.
Pre-TBC raiding was very much stat-based raiding. New Naxx is the same fundamental concept as old Naxx, it's largely stat-based raiding and not mechanic-based raiding, like so much of TBC was. The big problem, which I agree with you on bodh, is that it wasn't balanced well for level 80 abilities. If it had been properly balanced for level 80 abilities it would still be stat-based, but at least it would present the same kind of gear challenge that the original Naxx presented (though of course it would be balanced to entry-raiding gear, not the equivalent of T2).
Now don't get me wrong, it is pretty nicely balanced for someone in raid-entry blues IF they ignore all of the abilities that their class has gotten since the launch of TBC. But things like that just trivialize the place.
But oh well, it's a whopping 2 hours out of my entire week, maybe 3.5-4 hours if I do the 10man as well. I can bide my time.
Pre-TBC raiding was very much stat-based raiding. New Naxx is the same fundamental concept as old Naxx, it's largely stat-based raiding and not mechanic-based raiding, like so much of TBC was. The big problem, which I agree with you on bodh, is that it wasn't balanced well for level 80 abilities. If it had been properly balanced for level 80 abilities it would still be stat-based, but at least it would present the same kind of gear challenge that the original Naxx presented (though of course it would be balanced to entry-raiding gear, not the equivalent of T2).
Now don't get me wrong, it is pretty nicely balanced for someone in raid-entry blues IF they ignore all of the abilities that their class has gotten since the launch of TBC. But things like that just trivialize the place.
But oh well, it's a whopping 2 hours out of my entire week, maybe 3.5-4 hours if I do the 10man as well. I can bide my time.
lemme add some more regarding the blending of classes:
it ruined the gameplay and class pride. you are either a tank, dps, or healer. all abilites overlap between most classes and specs. Blizzard had great intentions when they took this route of redesign, but it killed some classes(rogues and warlocks most notably). Blizz's concept of "bring the player, not the class" lead to encounter design that is unoriginal and uninspiring. every class and spec has become raid and pvp friendly to the point that if any portion of the game conflicts with a player being able to compete, the encounter or the spec is appropriately adjusted. this sounds nice on paper. in reality it makes the game bland.
take the Moroes fight. you were very much rewarded to bring extra pallies for the garrote, priests and hunters for the CC, rogues for the stuns, and even racials were applauded.
now, as a Ret pally, i appreciate the extra abilities we've recieved from the xpac. however, why should i play another dps class. my mage is now my lvl 71 d/e bot. my priest at lvl 76 is on hold since CoH went whacky and my pally has a 1900 heal/17k mana set anyway.
gone are the days you require a certain class' abilities to progress past a boss. my guild's main rogue asked if he should trade his toon for something else. i replied "then who will open my lockboxes?...oh wait, my pally has keys for that."
another note:
i dont like the way that 10man and 25mans are handled. in vanilla you could only kill up to certain bosses as 20man, then complete the rest as 40man. now we just up the bosses hp and add another attack. often times a 25man is easier than the 10man counterpart. boo to that.
it ruined the gameplay and class pride. you are either a tank, dps, or healer. all abilites overlap between most classes and specs. Blizzard had great intentions when they took this route of redesign, but it killed some classes(rogues and warlocks most notably). Blizz's concept of "bring the player, not the class" lead to encounter design that is unoriginal and uninspiring. every class and spec has become raid and pvp friendly to the point that if any portion of the game conflicts with a player being able to compete, the encounter or the spec is appropriately adjusted. this sounds nice on paper. in reality it makes the game bland.
take the Moroes fight. you were very much rewarded to bring extra pallies for the garrote, priests and hunters for the CC, rogues for the stuns, and even racials were applauded.
now, as a Ret pally, i appreciate the extra abilities we've recieved from the xpac. however, why should i play another dps class. my mage is now my lvl 71 d/e bot. my priest at lvl 76 is on hold since CoH went whacky and my pally has a 1900 heal/17k mana set anyway.
gone are the days you require a certain class' abilities to progress past a boss. my guild's main rogue asked if he should trade his toon for something else. i replied "then who will open my lockboxes?...oh wait, my pally has keys for that."
another note:
i dont like the way that 10man and 25mans are handled. in vanilla you could only kill up to certain bosses as 20man, then complete the rest as 40man. now we just up the bosses hp and add another attack. often times a 25man is easier than the 10man counterpart. boo to that.
Actually that is a goodthing, if you had to deal with the class specific fights in SWP you would agree, but since you haven't I can see where you are coming from. That isn't a dig at your raiding experience its just that by end BC content it was so bad in terms of class specific fights that it was terrible, you bringing the class not the player and it was crap.
Rogues are actually broken right now, the ones in my guild are easily pushing 5k dps and having to hold back from fear of pulling aggro. They are also nice on the elementals on 3 drakes. You still want to balance a raid, melee range, etc. Just more flexible.
Rogues are actually broken right now, the ones in my guild are easily pushing 5k dps and having to hold back from fear of pulling aggro. They are also nice on the elementals on 3 drakes. You still want to balance a raid, melee range, etc. Just more flexible.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
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