so recently the people over at EJ have been think tanking a thread, "reseting hit tables assumptions"
the new hit numbers are looking like.
99 specials
315 poisons
722 white
Im sitting at 250 hit right now, I always have a heroic pres, and either a spriest or a moonkin. Here is my armory.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Agamaggan&n=Ichorid
Im currently looking for suggestions on what I should retool about my toon. I have the icy cloak, just not showing in the armory. Also picking up the Darkmoon Greatness tonight.
with the icy on Im sitting at less hit than what Im at right now -33.
So lets say my hit is 220.
My gut tells me my gems are not sitting right. From the pocket guide it says I should gem the 32ap gems, if Im above poison cap. Which I am if the group makeup is propper. But thats not always the case. Any how, what gems are you guys running? I was thinking about only socketing 8agi, 8hit. with one 16ap, 12?stam blue gem for my meta proc. Seeing as how agi scales with kings. I like the 16ap + 8hit gems. For some reason I just have a bad taste in my mouth socketing ap.
Additionally the way the gem guide reads on EJ, listing gem color slots. It gives me the impression that I should chase the socket bonuses for gear. I was under the impression that you only ever want to have 1 blue gem to proc a meta. The rest you're better off socketing a yellow for solid hit, or an orange for hit + XX.
well thats it board at work trying to get a discussion goin.
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hit, gems, and wotlk confusion. Follow
With all raid buffs going you're best off shooting for (or slightly over) 315 all things included. Gem for it if you have to, but it's the priority until over the poison cap for Mutilate builds.
After that I see more benefit from gemming for Agi than straight AP (Agi give AP and Crit), but as always...
... spreadsheet.
edited for clairty
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 4:52pm by TherionSaysWhat
After that I see more benefit from gemming for Agi than straight AP (Agi give AP and Crit), but as always...
... spreadsheet.
edited for clairty
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 4:52pm by TherionSaysWhat
Theo, can you post some evidence?
All over this forum you spout "315hit 315hit 315hit 315hit" Can you prove that? All over EJ that isn't said at all, not to mention the top rogues in raiding pve guilds are running with 115, 120, 150, 200 hit at most and if they have more it's only because it's on the gear that they are attaining.
EP weights say Hit is worth less than AGI after 99 with precision, and not trusting them is fine... But put it in a spreadsheet, Gemming for hit over AGI and a number of other stats is a LOSS in dps. This is at least true for mutilate. You say that Mute requires poison caps because of how much damage poisons do, but according to spreadsheets and every major raiding rogue, it is untrue.
According to spreadsheets, and EJ, 99hit is your main focus point, afterwards gem for AGI/AP whatever suits you, and never never never never gem/enchant for hit (icewalker excluded). You have been saying to use a spreadsheet, I'm assuming Vulajin's? Armory him.
According to Allakhazam, you gem/whatever for hit until you have 315, according to everyone else, you don't.
All over this forum you spout "315hit 315hit 315hit 315hit" Can you prove that? All over EJ that isn't said at all, not to mention the top rogues in raiding pve guilds are running with 115, 120, 150, 200 hit at most and if they have more it's only because it's on the gear that they are attaining.
EP weights say Hit is worth less than AGI after 99 with precision, and not trusting them is fine... But put it in a spreadsheet, Gemming for hit over AGI and a number of other stats is a LOSS in dps. This is at least true for mutilate. You say that Mute requires poison caps because of how much damage poisons do, but according to spreadsheets and every major raiding rogue, it is untrue.
According to spreadsheets, and EJ, 99hit is your main focus point, afterwards gem for AGI/AP whatever suits you, and never never never never gem/enchant for hit (icewalker excluded). You have been saying to use a spreadsheet, I'm assuming Vulajin's? Armory him.
According to Allakhazam, you gem/whatever for hit until you have 315, according to everyone else, you don't.
Boyiee wrote:
Theo, can you post some evidence?
I'm Therion, not Theo.
Boyiee wrote:
Can you prove [the value of 315 hit]?
Definitively? Maybe if I did two WWS parses with identical gear gemmed differently, but I don't have that kinda time. See below. (side note: I've relied on in-game results, both live raid and test dummy, more than the spreadsheets since LK came out to be honest.)
Boyiee wrote:
But put it in a spreadsheet, Gemming for hit over AGI and a number of other stats is a LOSS in dps.
For you. My models tell me something different. Which is why I put, in bold, the word spreadsheet. My fault for not being more clear: In the end there are no magical numbers and every possible upgrade should be verified by a good spreadsheet. The relative value of every stat changes for each player as gear changes.
Boyiee wrote:
EP weights say Hit is worth less than AGI after 99 with precision...
True (source edit: it was true at the time but the stat weights have been changed as noted below). But stat weights are only very rough guides to comparing gear and not meant to replace a solid math model. From what I'm seeing on my toon, Hit starts to slide to a lower relative value than Agi at just under the poison "hit cap" FOR ME. But that's only true for my toon. I can't speak to anyone elses.
Boyiee wrote:
Can you prove that?
I'd ask the same of your assertions.
---
As a side note, I don't care for your tone. It came off insulting. Not sure if you meant it to or not.
Edited, Jan 7th 2009 11:30am by TherionSaysWhat
I didn't mean to come off insulting, I didn't realize my text carried a tone, so sorry about that; nor did I mean to call you theo (whoops lol) but in all honesty it is pretty bogus that on these forums how much I'm seeing 315hit being repeated as if it was a magic number, when its far from. You said yourself it isn't, which is nice, but there are sooooo many threads with it being used and I'm just afraid of people following that, it's not your fault though so I'm not putting anything on you, it's a group effort (myself included).
If I were to have sources they would be the EJ forums say otherwise to 315 hit with their own evidence posted... on the dolls in IF and in raids AGI>Hit for me, I just don't see how that could even be possible for you to not have the same result. Are you saying that AGI is giving you diminishing returns and hit isn't near poison cap? Hit should scale if anything to that point or at least remain more static then it does, like agi seems to.
Yes, FOR ME, my spreadsheet says that AGI>HIT when you have over 99 and <315, but I've also challenged a few friend rogues to just to do a simple gem swap and they've noticed a difference on their sheet. If anything, the whole of EJ seems to agree on not geming/enchanting for hit and just taking only what you get from gear. I haven't seen to many posts that say otherwise.
Guess I'm just concerned about how often I see "315 315 315" on this forum, yes a spreadsheet is usually suggested as well in those same threads, but the numbers if anything need to stop. I probably confused you with theo thinking he may have said it before as well.
As for OP, odnet the pocket guide will tell you that unless a socketbonus is agi/ap(or crit too I think) that you socket only for agi/ap ignoring almost every socketbonus. The only time to put a blue in is for the meta bonus, same with a yellow, and not to use hit. The yellow you would use would preferably be 8agi/8crit. Pocketguide says agi/ap gems are the same and it's your choice, as posted already, I also use AGI gems over AP cause it seems to just look better, as well as spreadsheet showing me a decimal value gain. Some people like to boast a stupid amount of AP though, it does look cool lol.
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 9:28pm by Boyiee
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 9:29pm by Boyiee
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 10:29pm by Boyiee
If I were to have sources they would be the EJ forums say otherwise to 315 hit with their own evidence posted... on the dolls in IF and in raids AGI>Hit for me, I just don't see how that could even be possible for you to not have the same result. Are you saying that AGI is giving you diminishing returns and hit isn't near poison cap? Hit should scale if anything to that point or at least remain more static then it does, like agi seems to.
Yes, FOR ME, my spreadsheet says that AGI>HIT when you have over 99 and <315, but I've also challenged a few friend rogues to just to do a simple gem swap and they've noticed a difference on their sheet. If anything, the whole of EJ seems to agree on not geming/enchanting for hit and just taking only what you get from gear. I haven't seen to many posts that say otherwise.
Guess I'm just concerned about how often I see "315 315 315" on this forum, yes a spreadsheet is usually suggested as well in those same threads, but the numbers if anything need to stop. I probably confused you with theo thinking he may have said it before as well.
As for OP, odnet the pocket guide will tell you that unless a socketbonus is agi/ap(or crit too I think) that you socket only for agi/ap ignoring almost every socketbonus. The only time to put a blue in is for the meta bonus, same with a yellow, and not to use hit. The yellow you would use would preferably be 8agi/8crit. Pocketguide says agi/ap gems are the same and it's your choice, as posted already, I also use AGI gems over AP cause it seems to just look better, as well as spreadsheet showing me a decimal value gain. Some people like to boast a stupid amount of AP though, it does look cool lol.
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 9:28pm by Boyiee
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 9:29pm by Boyiee
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 10:29pm by Boyiee
Sorry if I misinterpreted your post and no worries about the name =)
Thanks for your reply and I think in general our intentions are similar. Seems like the state of rogues right now is such that there is little advice to really be given anymore aside from linking the sheet and the EJ abridged roguecraft thread (damn but they've done such a good job of it).
Took a survey of the progression raiding rogues on my server (all rogues with full Maly/Sarth/Naxx experience in the top 10 rated guilds according to wowjutsu). All the ones I saw are pushing well past 200 (averaging around 263ish), even the ones specc'd combat (!). So, I'm thinking I have to go back and check my math models again, run some tests, etc. Might be some tweaking I need to do in there. In all honesty, I haven't really done much with my personal sheet since the intensive beta and first week testing. My attentions have been the raid, getting SnD and HfB on the same timer (success!) and looking into DKs more in-depth. (Note: Just realized that I haven't upgraded my second trink which is why I'm over 300 and the other rogues aren't, duh!)
But I would caution other readers of this thread that 99 isn't a magic number either. The Hit to Agi comparison is a sliding scale: The more you have of one changes the relative value of the other (actually this is true for all of the primary DPS stats, but let's not get too far abroad).
And, of course, use a good spreadsheet for better gearing choices.
Cheers!
edit, typo
Edited, Jan 6th 2009 12:22pm by TherionSaysWhat
Thanks for your reply and I think in general our intentions are similar. Seems like the state of rogues right now is such that there is little advice to really be given anymore aside from linking the sheet and the EJ abridged roguecraft thread (damn but they've done such a good job of it).
Took a survey of the progression raiding rogues on my server (all rogues with full Maly/Sarth/Naxx experience in the top 10 rated guilds according to wowjutsu). All the ones I saw are pushing well past 200 (averaging around 263ish), even the ones specc'd combat (!). So, I'm thinking I have to go back and check my math models again, run some tests, etc. Might be some tweaking I need to do in there. In all honesty, I haven't really done much with my personal sheet since the intensive beta and first week testing. My attentions have been the raid, getting SnD and HfB on the same timer (success!) and looking into DKs more in-depth. (Note: Just realized that I haven't upgraded my second trink which is why I'm over 300 and the other rogues aren't, duh!)
But I would caution other readers of this thread that 99 isn't a magic number either. The Hit to Agi comparison is a sliding scale: The more you have of one changes the relative value of the other (actually this is true for all of the primary DPS stats, but let's not get too far abroad).
And, of course, use a good spreadsheet for better gearing choices.
Cheers!
edit, typo
Edited, Jan 6th 2009 12:22pm by TherionSaysWhat
I put in some gems last night, 16agi, only keeping 2 16 hit gems to stay at 216 hit. I noticed a significant gain on the dummy in IF. Im not saying Im going to forget about hit all together. But Im for sure not going to socket 16 hit gems across the board to chase down 315. first test with the way my gems were last night on the dummy for 4 minutes 1600ish test after new gems 1800ish.
Taking in consideration Mirror and Greatness procs, Im happy sitting at 216 hit. I eat hit food so shoot up to 256 during raids/heroics. + the heroic pres buff and imp FF/ or misery. We didnt down Kel last night, but on our best attempt (him at 15k) I was riding high in 10 man at 2700dps. taking a whopping 26.9% of the dps for the group. And 1.7million of the total damage dealt. If we weren't forced to bring under geared ranged we would have downed him.
Taking in consideration Mirror and Greatness procs, Im happy sitting at 216 hit. I eat hit food so shoot up to 256 during raids/heroics. + the heroic pres buff and imp FF/ or misery. We didnt down Kel last night, but on our best attempt (him at 15k) I was riding high in 10 man at 2700dps. taking a whopping 26.9% of the dps for the group. And 1.7million of the total damage dealt. If we weren't forced to bring under geared ranged we would have downed him.
OK, I have a question, and I apologise in advance if it's a dumb one.
My question is simply this: What changed?
In endgame TBC, PvE rogues were all about the Hit. Yes, that's an over-simplification, but there were endless threads about how you should gem nothing but +Hit until getting close to the cap, and how we get most of our damage from white hits, so removing the chance to miss was the single biggest thing we could to do boost our DPS.
Now, we're seeing recommended hit levels that are *lower* than what people were shooting for in TBC, despite the fact that the absolute white hit cap has soared into the 700's.
So, is there something fundamental that's changed in the underlying mechanics, or our understanding of them? Are there some peculiarities of the talent builds that mean you benefit more from other stats? Or was the advice being handed out for TBC endgame just wrong?
I'm a terrible theorycrafter, so if my understanding of current advice is wrong, or I misinterpreted what we were being told during TBC, then fine, just let me know. It just seems odd to me that when we need so much more +Hit to get capped, the recommended hit levels are, if anything, going down compared to TBC. I know that Mut wasn't the focus of most TBC discussions, but it seems like even for Combat, hit is no longer considered to be the most important stat.
If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be very grateful :)
My question is simply this: What changed?
In endgame TBC, PvE rogues were all about the Hit. Yes, that's an over-simplification, but there were endless threads about how you should gem nothing but +Hit until getting close to the cap, and how we get most of our damage from white hits, so removing the chance to miss was the single biggest thing we could to do boost our DPS.
Now, we're seeing recommended hit levels that are *lower* than what people were shooting for in TBC, despite the fact that the absolute white hit cap has soared into the 700's.
So, is there something fundamental that's changed in the underlying mechanics, or our understanding of them? Are there some peculiarities of the talent builds that mean you benefit more from other stats? Or was the advice being handed out for TBC endgame just wrong?
I'm a terrible theorycrafter, so if my understanding of current advice is wrong, or I misinterpreted what we were being told during TBC, then fine, just let me know. It just seems odd to me that when we need so much more +Hit to get capped, the recommended hit levels are, if anything, going down compared to TBC. I know that Mut wasn't the focus of most TBC discussions, but it seems like even for Combat, hit is no longer considered to be the most important stat.
If anyone could enlighten me, I'd be very grateful :)
Mutilate happened.
In TBC (pre 3.0) when we were all Combat, auto-attacks (aka "white damage") were a much larger part of our DPS. The more you could push auto-attack, the better your performance more or less.
3.0 made Mutilate on par (and eventually surpass) Combat's raid potential. Mutilate isn't as dependent on auto-attack for it's damage output as Combat is/was, relying more on specials and poison damage. Hit is still important of course. Not only for the specials cap but also it's effect on crit in the attack table (aka "crit cap"). But it's relative value has changed due to the requirements of the new spec pushing Agi up in importance as levels of Hit increase.
Hope that makes sense.
In TBC (pre 3.0) when we were all Combat, auto-attacks (aka "white damage") were a much larger part of our DPS. The more you could push auto-attack, the better your performance more or less.
3.0 made Mutilate on par (and eventually surpass) Combat's raid potential. Mutilate isn't as dependent on auto-attack for it's damage output as Combat is/was, relying more on specials and poison damage. Hit is still important of course. Not only for the specials cap but also it's effect on crit in the attack table (aka "crit cap"). But it's relative value has changed due to the requirements of the new spec pushing Agi up in importance as levels of Hit increase.
Hope that makes sense.
15 posts
So is mid 200s what to aim for? or should i still try to top 300 hit? i was combat for so long and it was all about hit, now with mut, im being told you can live with a lot less, before wrath, i had never even heard of a poison cap and yellow cap, the only thing that was mentioned was hit cap. while i used to be a regular raider, now im just a casual player and finding it difficult to run regular instances for gear and whatnot, but still have an interest in improving my pve setup, (so looking forward to dual specs for pve/pvp setup)
and I know people keep saying spreadsheet spreadsheet spreadsheet, i looked at the roguecraft one and another mut one, and got very confuzzled,
my armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ravencrest&n=Shintoo
Im yet to respec into a pve spec, im more of a solo farm spec right now, waiting for the dual specs to come so i can set up a dedicated raidspec
Is there a specific spreadsheet i should be using? is there a simple one or are they all failry advanced?
and I know people keep saying spreadsheet spreadsheet spreadsheet, i looked at the roguecraft one and another mut one, and got very confuzzled,
my armory
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ravencrest&n=Shintoo
Im yet to respec into a pve spec, im more of a solo farm spec right now, waiting for the dual specs to come so i can set up a dedicated raidspec
Is there a specific spreadsheet i should be using? is there a simple one or are they all failry advanced?
Mid 200's is where a TON of rogues sit at, with that being only from gear with enchants/gems being aimed towards agil/crit before hit. There are some very very high end rogues (vulajin included) using 99-200 though, so be careful.
Like said, no magic number, your magic number if you will is your spreadsheet.
EP weights have changed again however, hit is now worth more until the poison 315cap as far as weights go (but EP weights consider alot of things, such as full 25man buffs I believe)
Your spreadsheet will tell you what to do. In mine, I'm about 250 or 260hit, and gemming for AGI still gives me about 2dps more than gemming for hit.
Personal preference at this point, I'm muti btw. Go get your spreadsheet and see.
The spreadsheet you want is Vulajin's: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t27244-roguecraft_spreadsheet/
Use the Pocket Guide for most rogue information, note: it gets updated often so check it alot.
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/
Edited, Jan 7th 2009 1:03pm by Boyiee
Like said, no magic number, your magic number if you will is your spreadsheet.
EP weights have changed again however, hit is now worth more until the poison 315cap as far as weights go (but EP weights consider alot of things, such as full 25man buffs I believe)
Your spreadsheet will tell you what to do. In mine, I'm about 250 or 260hit, and gemming for AGI still gives me about 2dps more than gemming for hit.
Personal preference at this point, I'm muti btw. Go get your spreadsheet and see.
The spreadsheet you want is Vulajin's: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t27244-roguecraft_spreadsheet/
Use the Pocket Guide for most rogue information, note: it gets updated often so check it alot.
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk/
Edited, Jan 7th 2009 1:03pm by Boyiee
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
Mutilate happened.
In TBC (pre 3.0) when we were all Combat, auto-attacks (aka "white damage") were a much larger part of our DPS. The more you could push auto-attack, the better your performance more or less.
3.0 made Mutilate on par (and eventually surpass) Combat's raid potential. Mutilate isn't as dependent on auto-attack for it's damage output as Combat is/was, relying more on specials and poison damage. Hit is still important of course. Not only for the specials cap but also it's effect on crit in the attack table (aka "crit cap"). But it's relative value has changed due to the requirements of the new spec pushing Agi up in importance as levels of Hit increase.
Hope that makes sense.
In TBC (pre 3.0) when we were all Combat, auto-attacks (aka "white damage") were a much larger part of our DPS. The more you could push auto-attack, the better your performance more or less.
3.0 made Mutilate on par (and eventually surpass) Combat's raid potential. Mutilate isn't as dependent on auto-attack for it's damage output as Combat is/was, relying more on specials and poison damage. Hit is still important of course. Not only for the specials cap but also it's effect on crit in the attack table (aka "crit cap"). But it's relative value has changed due to the requirements of the new spec pushing Agi up in importance as levels of Hit increase.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks Therion. It does make sense, but doesn't really address the fact that for Combat, hit is currently rated below Agi for ALL levels of hit, according to the pocket guide Boylee posted from Elitist Jerks. This is completely contrary to the advice being handed out for Combat rogues in TBC, where we were told to gem hit wherever possible until capped.
I also note that, according to the same EJ post as it currently stands (last edited on Jan 5th) the relative value of hit for Mutilate has gone up (again, as mentioned by Boylee), so that it's now the most valuable stat until you hit the poison cap. For Combat, +Hit remains lower than Agi, even if you are currently below the yellow cap. My gut instinct is that the models people are using were updated, and the poster only updated the stats for Mut, as that seems to be what people are more interested in. Should we take the ratings for Combat with a pinch of salt? I can't think of any reason why +Hit would be more valuable for Mut than it is for Combat.
Edited, Jan 7th 2009 5:29pm by zhaharik
Stat weights should ALWAYS be taken with a grain of salt.
I have to admit that I have no interest in combat right now and haven't done any math on it since beta. So I can't really explain the weights. But I can say that Aldriana is very knowledgeable and while I wouldn't take the weights as "gospel", I'd guess there is a good amount of solid research behind them.
If I had to guess I'd say it's the new poison scaling that's mixed up the old stat priorities. In t5-6 hit was so vital because of auto-attacks contribution but with more poison damage percentages, I could see auto-attack (and thus Hit) getting shifted. But again, haven't looked much into it, just a guess. Oh, and just thought of this too: the amount of hit that effects the so-called crit-cap could be part of it too. Combat doesn't rely on crits as much as mutilate. /shrug
Check a spreadsheet, hit the dummies, try things out. Works for me =)
I have to admit that I have no interest in combat right now and haven't done any math on it since beta. So I can't really explain the weights. But I can say that Aldriana is very knowledgeable and while I wouldn't take the weights as "gospel", I'd guess there is a good amount of solid research behind them.
If I had to guess I'd say it's the new poison scaling that's mixed up the old stat priorities. In t5-6 hit was so vital because of auto-attacks contribution but with more poison damage percentages, I could see auto-attack (and thus Hit) getting shifted. But again, haven't looked much into it, just a guess. Oh, and just thought of this too: the amount of hit that effects the so-called crit-cap could be part of it too. Combat doesn't rely on crits as much as mutilate. /shrug
Check a spreadsheet, hit the dummies, try things out. Works for me =)
Like said, careful with stat weights, they are nice if you have no spreadsheet around or arent sure of something - I only use them for gems really at this point since spreadsheet is far superior.
Read up on the EP weights, they are only accurate under a perfect situation (certain buffs and whatnot) and aren't a set thing at all, much less set thing all the time. If your gear even slightly changes, your stat weights could be affected.
Also note about poison EP weights, currently on mutilate there is a bug (being fixed in patch) where you can proc instant poison twice on the offhand weapon during a mutilate. This could affect ep weights for the patch.
Even though the EP weights say that hit is 2.2 below poison cap, and agil 2.0 below it, I'm under the cap and on spreadsheet my dps is considered higher will full agi gems rather then a single hit gem... so it can be confusing. I still say for the most part, that get your hit from gear, not from gems/chants. If X item drops for you and it is an upgrade, take it, and if it has hit on it, cool, but don't drop nice pieces of gear (rated by spreadsheet or shadowpanther) for gear that just has a ton of hit so that you get to poison cap. One rogue on EJ has about 400+ hit, but it is ENTIRELY from gear, all his gems are AP. Take what you get from armor/weapons, but don't make sacrifices for it, unless your spreadsheet tells you to.
Read up on the EP weights, they are only accurate under a perfect situation (certain buffs and whatnot) and aren't a set thing at all, much less set thing all the time. If your gear even slightly changes, your stat weights could be affected.
Also note about poison EP weights, currently on mutilate there is a bug (being fixed in patch) where you can proc instant poison twice on the offhand weapon during a mutilate. This could affect ep weights for the patch.
Even though the EP weights say that hit is 2.2 below poison cap, and agil 2.0 below it, I'm under the cap and on spreadsheet my dps is considered higher will full agi gems rather then a single hit gem... so it can be confusing. I still say for the most part, that get your hit from gear, not from gems/chants. If X item drops for you and it is an upgrade, take it, and if it has hit on it, cool, but don't drop nice pieces of gear (rated by spreadsheet or shadowpanther) for gear that just has a ton of hit so that you get to poison cap. One rogue on EJ has about 400+ hit, but it is ENTIRELY from gear, all his gems are AP. Take what you get from armor/weapons, but don't make sacrifices for it, unless your spreadsheet tells you to.
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