Ive been reading on these forums for a while but this is my first time posting.I dont know why but it seems you guys fovor blood dps here when at the O-boards they all claim unholy 17/0/54 or the DW 32/39 frost unholy specs are better.
Now I dont have any experience with blood raiding myself but ive broken 4k dps as 17/0/54 and then i respecced and broke 5k as 32/39, but aside from that in every heroic or raid ive been in blood death knight with on par or better gear than me I seem to just annihilate them on the meters.
I was just wondering why so much blood love over here when in my experiance its been better as unholy or frost
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Why all the hype about blood here??Follow
I think your apostrophe key may be broken.
As far as build versus build info here, the sticky is outdated. It was written at a time where I had little experience with DW, thus could not form an opinion about it.
That you trust the oboards speaks volumes for the kind of info you put your trust in, though. You've probably done no math theorycraft, never been to EJ, etc.
Unholy is about equal to blood, currently. If you stack two unholy DKs, you may do more damage with the Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer bug, but that's not intended damage, and I don't consider that when I analyze damage.
DW in the current raid environment is better than both blood and unholy, though. The truth is that you should be taking one of each kind of DK with you when you raid, not just stacking three DW DKs or three blood DKs.
The only time when you shouldn't have a blood or frost DK is when you have a shaman for WF and UR, or a hunter for TSA.
As far as build versus build info here, the sticky is outdated. It was written at a time where I had little experience with DW, thus could not form an opinion about it.
That you trust the oboards speaks volumes for the kind of info you put your trust in, though. You've probably done no math theorycraft, never been to EJ, etc.
Unholy is about equal to blood, currently. If you stack two unholy DKs, you may do more damage with the Crypt Fever/Ebon Plaguebringer bug, but that's not intended damage, and I don't consider that when I analyze damage.
DW in the current raid environment is better than both blood and unholy, though. The truth is that you should be taking one of each kind of DK with you when you raid, not just stacking three DW DKs or three blood DKs.
The only time when you shouldn't have a blood or frost DK is when you have a shaman for WF and UR, or a hunter for TSA.
Theo, I have not visited the forums in quite a bit, but have mainly been Blood. So I am curious, what is this 32/39 DW spec? Honestly, I don't know much on DW specs nor ever tried one because was always told that it is a loss in personal dps despite the buffs you bring to a raid.
May you enlighten me about DW and how it works exactly in a group environment?
May you enlighten me about DW and how it works exactly in a group environment?
I second that request. Last I heard DW DKs only served as an example that stupid people can buy computers. When did it get good? I'm clearly out of the loop here.
Theo wrote:
The only time when you shouldn't have a blood or frost DK is when you have a shaman for WF...
Actually, the shamans I've talked to suggest that with a frost DK in their group they can drop other totems instead of WF. /shrug
generally its only when you have an enh shammy do you not really care about blood or frost,
yet you might want to bring blood because of superior single target dps + hysteria on the highest dps in the group, not to mention ive helped with aoe raid healing a fair amount with glyphed rune tap.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 2:16pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
yet you might want to bring blood because of superior single target dps + hysteria on the highest dps in the group, not to mention ive helped with aoe raid healing a fair amount with glyphed rune tap.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 2:16pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Rasen wrote:
I second that request. Last I heard DW DKs only served as an example that stupid people can buy computers. When did it get good? I'm clearly out of the loop here.
IIRC it is dual wielding tanks that are crap...not dps
DPS used to be considered crap too, and I could see why as on paper it seems that most of our abilities benefit from big hitting weapons. DW goes against that, but my eyes are open to learning about this.
As a tank myself, I very much doubt I'll ever try it firsthand but it'll be good to know what I'm talking about if someone in the guild asks me.
As a tank myself, I very much doubt I'll ever try it firsthand but it'll be good to know what I'm talking about if someone in the guild asks me.
Messing around with a possible 0/32/39 build and that's where I'm at now. Open to suggestions/commentary of course. But please note that I didn't look up what progression raiding DW-DKs are doing or done any testing with it yet. Just putting this one out there so that we have a basis on which to continue the conversation. Looks like a good conversation to be had.
Thinking about it, this may need to be a separate thread... hmmm....
Thinking about it, this may need to be a separate thread... hmmm....
2 posts
This is the 32/39 spec that i am talking about http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0ex0xbRhoZf0hhxckxcq0Ro the point in Night of the Dead can be moved over to Crypt Fever if you want.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 4:35pm by GingerG
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 4:35pm by GingerG
atm the 0/32/39 dw build is one of the highest dps builds out there, because of the insane scaling frost and unholy share together.
however, as this already happened once in beta, blizzard will most likely nerf it one way or another (i think they're going to put an internal cd on killing machine)
however, as this already happened once in beta, blizzard will most likely nerf it one way or another (i think they're going to put an internal cd on killing machine)
Quote:
atm the 0/32/39 dw build is one of the highest dps builds out there,
Link to parse please?
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
(i think they're going to put an internal cd on killing machine)
I doubt it, since they took the cooldown off of HB.
And no, it's not because of "scaling". It's because HB doesn't have any components from weapon damage and KM and BCB are both procs without a cooldown.
Essentially you have no damage but BS based on weapon damage (BCB procs more as a DW spec, giving it far more DPS than in a 2h build to make up for the loss of weapon damage), ergo really all your weapons contribute is white damage and more BCB damage.
Yeah, this is news to me as well.
Haven't paid much attention to the internet theorycrafters for the last few weeks, and I've also been tanking for the last few weeks... but hearing that DW is actually good for something aside from picking which DK you shouldn't invite is a bit shocking.
Hell, the 2 tanking build I trusted were basically 10/50/10 ish and 10/5/55 ish... and now I'm being told 25/41/5 is the way to go.
It's insanity, cats and dogs living together!
Haven't paid much attention to the internet theorycrafters for the last few weeks, and I've also been tanking for the last few weeks... but hearing that DW is actually good for something aside from picking which DK you shouldn't invite is a bit shocking.
Hell, the 2 tanking build I trusted were basically 10/50/10 ish and 10/5/55 ish... and now I'm being told 25/41/5 is the way to go.
It's insanity, cats and dogs living together!
I guess I was ahead of the curve.
I've been running with that build and I have to say it is the most fun, entertaining and highest-damage build I've run with. You need a solid amount of hit to make it work, around 300, and you need two weapons as fast as you can get them. At the moment Im using Hatestrike and Fang of Truth, replacing it with Grasscutter soon. With a pair of 143dps weapons under 1.8spd, you will proc KM almost constantly.
This build doesnt massively out-DPS 2H builds, but it does compete with them and in my opinion it's a lot more fun. Your time-on-target is very much greater because you rely on Icy Touch and Death Coil, the only hard part is breaking your old rotation habit and just spamming Icy Touch; to be honest I only use Howling Blast if Freezing Fog procs and I get a free one.
By the way Therion, your build is all wrong mate. Why do you have points in Obliterate when you barely use any melee abilities and NEVER use Obliterate? You also have a point in Dirge in Unholy, when on this build you have trouble spending RP because you lack GCDs, it's more like Blood tbh. The point in Outbreak is also a total waste of time for such a low damage ability.
This is the build you want, don't argue with me just do it, you may consider the point in Pale Horse and the two in Merciless Combat 'floaters' that you can do anything with. Next patch you may consider swapping Pale Horse for Corpse Explosion as it gets a huge buff. You may notice I took Night of the Dead; that is because next patch, it will give your pet 70% AoE avoidance and is therefore a required raiding talent; keeping that little guy alive is a bigger DPS boost than any talent you care to name.
EDITed for noobishness
Edited, Jan 4th 2009 2:04pm by Sinstralis
I've been running with that build and I have to say it is the most fun, entertaining and highest-damage build I've run with. You need a solid amount of hit to make it work, around 300, and you need two weapons as fast as you can get them. At the moment Im using Hatestrike and Fang of Truth, replacing it with Grasscutter soon. With a pair of 143dps weapons under 1.8spd, you will proc KM almost constantly.
This build doesnt massively out-DPS 2H builds, but it does compete with them and in my opinion it's a lot more fun. Your time-on-target is very much greater because you rely on Icy Touch and Death Coil, the only hard part is breaking your old rotation habit and just spamming Icy Touch; to be honest I only use Howling Blast if Freezing Fog procs and I get a free one.
By the way Therion, your build is all wrong mate. Why do you have points in Obliterate when you barely use any melee abilities and NEVER use Obliterate? You also have a point in Dirge in Unholy, when on this build you have trouble spending RP because you lack GCDs, it's more like Blood tbh. The point in Outbreak is also a total waste of time for such a low damage ability.
This is the build you want, don't argue with me just do it, you may consider the point in Pale Horse and the two in Merciless Combat 'floaters' that you can do anything with. Next patch you may consider swapping Pale Horse for Corpse Explosion as it gets a huge buff. You may notice I took Night of the Dead; that is because next patch, it will give your pet 70% AoE avoidance and is therefore a required raiding talent; keeping that little guy alive is a bigger DPS boost than any talent you care to name.
EDITed for noobishness
Edited, Jan 4th 2009 2:04pm by Sinstralis
Sinstralis wrote:
By the way Theo, your build is all wrong mate.
Just going to point out that I never posted a build in this thread.
I know you guys think I deserve to be a Sage, but that was Therion that posted the DW build, not me.
Ha, just a typo there, corrected.
Did ya notice the bold "But please note"? =) I expected the build to need adjustments and you make some solid points, thanks. I had the 1 point in Dirge to pair with the 1 point in Chill of the Grave and forgot to move the wandering 1 point in Outbreak to Corpse Explosion. Annihilation I wasn't really sure on (which is why I needed to test it). Not defending, but pointing out the reasoning behind the ones I picked.
We may need to start a new DW thread. This one's gotten way off-topic =)
We may need to start a new DW thread. This one's gotten way off-topic =)
So out of curiosity, how does a DW hold up for leveling? Or should it be only an end game raiding build?
For levelling its up to you. I personally find missing that often frustrating, however it might not be the same for everyone.
Levelling wise i recommend everyone get on a pale horse, which you wouldnt be able to get right away as DW DPS, on that same note you wouldnt have all your dps proc abilities. If you want to DW maybe wait until you are close to 70 to try it out if you want to make sure you are doing 'max' damage.
personally i'd go blood unholy hybrid if i had to level to 80 again, mostly unholy with some in blood. on a pale horse is just too uber to not have while levelling.
Levelling wise i recommend everyone get on a pale horse, which you wouldnt be able to get right away as DW DPS, on that same note you wouldnt have all your dps proc abilities. If you want to DW maybe wait until you are close to 70 to try it out if you want to make sure you are doing 'max' damage.
personally i'd go blood unholy hybrid if i had to level to 80 again, mostly unholy with some in blood. on a pale horse is just too uber to not have while levelling.
mclix wrote:
So out of curiosity, how does a DW hold up for leveling? Or should it be only an end game raiding build?
It's not as efficient as Blood or Unholy for leveling, just as Frost with a 2h isn't as good for leveling as Unholy or Blood are.
10 posts
Quote:
Rasen wrote:
I second that request. Last I heard DW DKs only served as an example that stupid people can buy computers. When did it get good? I'm clearly out of the loop here.
IIRC it is dual wielding tanks that are crap...not dps
I second that request. Last I heard DW DKs only served as an example that stupid people can buy computers. When did it get good? I'm clearly out of the loop here.
IIRC it is dual wielding tanks that are crap...not dps
I've seen too many heroic groups break up because a tank is too worried about out DPSing the DPS. I assume you are part of this? A tank's job is to take less damage and hold aggro; not to deal more damage and hold less aggro. DK Tanks only DW because there are barely any decent 2 handers that give +defense. By decent I mean stat wise not DPS wise.
Is there any specific guideline on the rotation for DW? From what I can observe is...
PS->IT x2->BS x2->DC...
Then in the following priorities
1. Spam free HB whenever possible
2. Spam IT whenever possible, renew BS to become death rune if need to
3. Refresh PS when it's expiring
By doing so, I can always keep up one unholy rune active, in the case I need bone shield or a HB.
Anyone else can share a better approach?
P/S: Oh ya BTW, DW need BOTH fast weapon am I right?
PS->IT x2->BS x2->DC...
Then in the following priorities
1. Spam free HB whenever possible
2. Spam IT whenever possible, renew BS to become death rune if need to
3. Refresh PS when it's expiring
By doing so, I can always keep up one unholy rune active, in the case I need bone shield or a HB.
Anyone else can share a better approach?
P/S: Oh ya BTW, DW need BOTH fast weapon am I right?
Quote:
Is there any specific guideline on the rotation for DW? From what I can observe is...
PS->IT x2->BS x2->DC...
Then in the following priorities
1. Spam free HB whenever possible
2. Spam IT whenever possible, renew BS to become death rune if need to
3. Refresh PS when it's expiring
By doing so, I can always keep up one unholy rune active, in the case I need bone shield or a HB.
Anyone else can share a better approach?
P/S: Oh ya BTW, DW need BOTH fast weapon am I right?
PS->IT x2->BS x2->DC...
Then in the following priorities
1. Spam free HB whenever possible
2. Spam IT whenever possible, renew BS to become death rune if need to
3. Refresh PS when it's expiring
By doing so, I can always keep up one unholy rune active, in the case I need bone shield or a HB.
Anyone else can share a better approach?
P/S: Oh ya BTW, DW need BOTH fast weapon am I right?
Not sure about the rotation, but yes, you want two as fast as possible swords for killing machine and that other proc i forgot the name of (:>).
The easiest weapons you can get are probably the two swords from wyrmrest reputation.
In terms of weapons you need quick little swords yes; at the moment I'm wielding Widow's Fury and Hatestrike and Im seeing as much DPS as a 2H DK ever does, and in some cases more than. The only real disadvantage is that none of our setbonuses benefit a Dual-Wielder because you never use Scourge Strike or Obliterate unless you've gone temporarily insane, but those setbonuses dont exactly set the world on fire to be honest.
I've played both Blood 2H and DW extensively in Naxx 25 and I have to say DW is a great deal more fun. Blood benefits from a wider stat variety (good ArPen for example sees Blood DPS skyrocket) but DW is just so damn awesome.... constantly critting on HB and IT means your effective Time-on-Target is very high, even if the mob moves your rotation is uninterrupted. Blood I found to be very good fun if you can guarantee the mob doesnt move; if it moves around too much you end up wasting a lot of time chasing it.
Sadly it is due for a nerf; on PTR they stealth-fixed KM to only affect Frost Strike, so they are clearly looking into it. Those of you who love Dual-Wielding, my suggestion is enjoy it while you can.
I've played both Blood 2H and DW extensively in Naxx 25 and I have to say DW is a great deal more fun. Blood benefits from a wider stat variety (good ArPen for example sees Blood DPS skyrocket) but DW is just so damn awesome.... constantly critting on HB and IT means your effective Time-on-Target is very high, even if the mob moves your rotation is uninterrupted. Blood I found to be very good fun if you can guarantee the mob doesnt move; if it moves around too much you end up wasting a lot of time chasing it.
Sadly it is due for a nerf; on PTR they stealth-fixed KM to only affect Frost Strike, so they are clearly looking into it. Those of you who love Dual-Wielding, my suggestion is enjoy it while you can.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
NeroSeekerOfSouls wrote:
(i think they're going to put an internal cd on killing machine)
I doubt it, since they took the cooldown off of HB.
Quote:
The most logical place to look for DW nerfs is Killing Machine.
Yeah, we agree with Sawney. A proc per minute on Killing Machine would nerf DW a little while making an expensive talent more attractive for 2H Frost.
Yeah, we agree with Sawney. A proc per minute on Killing Machine would nerf DW a little while making an expensive talent more attractive for 2H Frost.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/14133216694-gc-blood-caked-blade-dw-vs-2-handed-data.html
Looks like it's a possibility, actually.
Sounds like the gargoyle's also receiving a nerf. Not sure that this will affect DW more than an unholy 2h build, but it's something to consider.
Edit: What kind of glyphs would you folks suggest for a DW DK?
Edited, Jan 7th 2009 2:18am by Poldaran
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