OK so I've gone back to feral from boomkin at 69 and finding a few new toys to play with.... berserk, mangle etc.
Was looking to dps in instances as kitty but it seems despite the glut of DKs around, noone wants to tank! So I'm becoming re-acquainted with the furry rear end of my bear, and its reminded me I still have a lot to learn for bear tanking.
So I have a few questions (some probably noob-worthy), any kind of help is appreciated!
(1) for multiple targets i know i should use tab/swipe/lacerate to keep my threat high. But if I am only tanking 1 mob, or a boss, what is my highest threat rotation then?
(2) what is our highest single-target threat attack? (I couldn't see this on the sticky). what is our lowest and is there a bear attack so useless I should just take it off my spell bar?
(3) when is the best time to use berserk? everytime it is up or is it something i should save for a particular situation?
(4) does anyone use maul anymore?
(5) I did crypts last night and for a lot of multi-mob tanking I had a full rage bar, and could not seem to use it up quickly enough. What am I doing wrong?
(6) being a tank, if i'm successfully tanking 5 or so mobs in front of me but one breaks and makes a run for the dps/heals, what should I do? Slowly back up bringing the other mobs with me until I pick up the other mob again, or turn around and chase after him, or concentrate on the mobs I still have and let the dps focus the other guy down (shudder)?
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bear - highest threat attacksFollow
I'll take a shot at this as much to test myself as anything else, so take it with a grain of salt until somebody validates or corrects me.
Mangle every cooldown, keep lacerate stacked x5 and keep toggling maul on, refresh your faerie fire and demo roar when they drop. If you've got berserk, which you should as a tank, pop that and WAIL on 'em with Manglespam.
Don't know about the highest single-target threat attack honestly, I think maybe maul, but since I tend to hit them with everything I've got I figure I'm covered. I can't think of any bear attacks so useless they get yanked from the spell bar.
Anytime you need burst damage. Good for early in pulls when you want to lock a bunch of mobs on you, because of the two extra targets, and for maxing threat against a boss as mentioned above.
Oh hell yeah, they buffed and it hits harder than ever now. And there's a glyph that makes it hit one extra target.
Not using maul, for one thing. : )
Couple choices better than the options you laid out. First, feral charge his ***. The other mobs are on you for a reason and they'll chase ya down so you don't have to take it slow for their sake. Second, range on growl is 30 yards now, so just growl at 'em from where ya stand. Third, the cooldown on challenging roar is down from 10 minutes to 3, so you can use it much more liberally than before, even on just a single mob.
apothik wrote:
(1) for multiple targets i know i should use tab/swipe/lacerate to keep my threat high. But if I am only tanking 1 mob, or a boss, what is my highest threat rotation then?
Mangle every cooldown, keep lacerate stacked x5 and keep toggling maul on, refresh your faerie fire and demo roar when they drop. If you've got berserk, which you should as a tank, pop that and WAIL on 'em with Manglespam.
apothik wrote:
(2) what is our highest single-target threat attack? (I couldn't see this on the sticky). what is our lowest and is there a bear attack so useless I should just take it off my spell bar?
Don't know about the highest single-target threat attack honestly, I think maybe maul, but since I tend to hit them with everything I've got I figure I'm covered. I can't think of any bear attacks so useless they get yanked from the spell bar.
apothik wrote:
(3) when is the best time to use berserk? everytime it is up or is it something i should save for a particular situation?
Anytime you need burst damage. Good for early in pulls when you want to lock a bunch of mobs on you, because of the two extra targets, and for maxing threat against a boss as mentioned above.
apothik wrote:
(4) does anyone use maul anymore?
Oh hell yeah, they buffed and it hits harder than ever now. And there's a glyph that makes it hit one extra target.
apothik wrote:
(5) I did crypts last night and for a lot of multi-mob tanking I had a full rage bar, and could not seem to use it up quickly enough. What am I doing wrong
Not using maul, for one thing. : )
apothik wrote:
(6) being a tank, if i'm successfully tanking 5 or so mobs in front of me but one breaks and makes a run for the dps/heals, what should I do? Slowly back up bringing the other mobs with me until I pick up the other mob again, or turn around and chase after him, or concentrate on the mobs I still have and let the dps focus the other guy down (shudder)?
Couple choices better than the options you laid out. First, feral charge his ***. The other mobs are on you for a reason and they'll chase ya down so you don't have to take it slow for their sake. Second, range on growl is 30 yards now, so just growl at 'em from where ya stand. Third, the cooldown on challenging roar is down from 10 minutes to 3, so you can use it much more liberally than before, even on just a single mob.
Oh yeah, some things I'm guessing you might not now, not related to "highest threat attacks" but relevant to you:
You can now chug pots while in furball form. Yeah, seriously. Cool, huh?
You can cast barkskin on yourself without leaving feral form. Pop it early in multi-mob pulls when you're taking the most damage to ease the load on your healer, and/or use it later in nasty fights when things are getting dicey.
Weapon enchants with procs, like Mongoose, now work in feral form. So you've got choices beyond the old standby +35 agility.
You can now chug pots while in furball form. Yeah, seriously. Cool, huh?
You can cast barkskin on yourself without leaving feral form. Pop it early in multi-mob pulls when you're taking the most damage to ease the load on your healer, and/or use it later in nasty fights when things are getting dicey.
Weapon enchants with procs, like Mongoose, now work in feral form. So you've got choices beyond the old standby +35 agility.
Highest threat attack is maul, but it is by far the highest rage cost as you lost the rage from a white attack as well as the ability cost. Mangle is close and has a much lower rage cost, but has the cooldown.
For multiple target tanking, Swipe is usually enough these days (I find I don't need to switch targets at all),but I spam maul and swipe on the main DPS target to ward off any DPS who are single-targetting.
For single target it is still the old mangle & lacerate spam, throwing in maul spam if you have plenty of rage.
For beserk, just spam mangle (and maul if you have enough rage) and watch your threat skyrocket. I use it early in the fight as soon as I have a good amount of rage to get a good threat lead and then every time it is up.
All that is with keeping FFF & Demo Roar up (FFF mainly only if you are single targeting).
Your rage bar will often be full on AoE pulls as your crits give you 5 rage and your swipe can crit on many targets each time. With the maul glyph (so it hits 2 targets), your maul & swipe spam can beat a lot of the DPS on the damage meter let alone the threat meter.
Depends on the situation (some mobs hit harder than others and how well you know the other players (fears, stuns, CC, pets etc can often be used). Taunt now has a 20 or 30 yard range (they are changing it to 30 either last patch or next patch), so you can usually turn quickly and taunt then turn back to the main group. If you know them well, you can often wait until the offending DPS has died before taunting it back :) Just make sure the healer (or the whole group!) doesn't pay the price for your little lesson. If you are in a PuG, do your best to grab it straight away or you will have to put up with the 13yr old DPS complaining that it is your fault he pulled agro.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 6:38am by RareBeast
For multiple target tanking, Swipe is usually enough these days (I find I don't need to switch targets at all),but I spam maul and swipe on the main DPS target to ward off any DPS who are single-targetting.
For single target it is still the old mangle & lacerate spam, throwing in maul spam if you have plenty of rage.
For beserk, just spam mangle (and maul if you have enough rage) and watch your threat skyrocket. I use it early in the fight as soon as I have a good amount of rage to get a good threat lead and then every time it is up.
All that is with keeping FFF & Demo Roar up (FFF mainly only if you are single targeting).
Your rage bar will often be full on AoE pulls as your crits give you 5 rage and your swipe can crit on many targets each time. With the maul glyph (so it hits 2 targets), your maul & swipe spam can beat a lot of the DPS on the damage meter let alone the threat meter.
Quote:
(6) being a tank, if i'm successfully tanking 5 or so mobs in front of me but one breaks and makes a run for the dps/heals, what should I do? Slowly back up bringing the other mobs with me until I pick up the other mob again, or turn around and chase after him, or concentrate on the mobs I still have and let the dps focus the other guy down (shudder)?
Depends on the situation (some mobs hit harder than others and how well you know the other players (fears, stuns, CC, pets etc can often be used). Taunt now has a 20 or 30 yard range (they are changing it to 30 either last patch or next patch), so you can usually turn quickly and taunt then turn back to the main group. If you know them well, you can often wait until the offending DPS has died before taunting it back :) Just make sure the healer (or the whole group!) doesn't pay the price for your little lesson. If you are in a PuG, do your best to grab it straight away or you will have to put up with the 13yr old DPS complaining that it is your fault he pulled agro.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 6:38am by RareBeast
As someone intricately familiar with bear tanking, it's really quite simple to explain.
On multiple targets, Swipe. Swipe, swipe, swipe, that's all you need. Berserk + Mangle whenever you can and you know Berserk will be back up by the next boss. Tabbing and applying Mangle and Lacerate stacks, while something to keep you busy, just isn't essential anymore with the improvements to Swipe, it's as good if not better than Thunderclap or Consecrate (provided you spec into it). Apply Mangle to the primary target, Lacerate if you really want to, but just remember: SWIPE, SWIPE, SWIPE.
On single targets it's the same old deal, Mangle, Lacerate, Maul. But you could really get by with just Mangle, bear threat generation is amazing these days.
Back to multiple targets and an attempt to answer some of your questions. You specifically list mobs breaking off and eating your healers/dps. This I suspect is because you are still thinking pre-3.0 and tabbing to apply Lacerate and Mangle on your secondary targets, thus lowering your threat generation on other mobs that you aren't actively attacking. Just swipe your heart out from the onset of the pull and they will stick to you like glue. If your dps is smart, and your healer doesn't have to drop nuclear bomb heals to keep you alive, no mob should break off.
Best time to use Berserk, in my opinion, is all the time (and like stated above, when you know the cooldown will be ready for an upcoming boss). Don't waste it on single pulls though, save it for multiple mob pulls, it's freakin' godly.
I use Maul all the time, but that's only because I'm not having any issues with rage right now. At the very end of BC though I was in sick top end badge/Tier 5 gear so most things were barely grazing me, hence I had poor rage generation and didn't use Maul very much as it IS very hard on the rage. But these days in average blues/epics and 31% dodge I get hit more than enough to keep my rage at an acceptable level to spam Maul. Don't spam Maul though if you cannot afford to do so.
If at all possible, Bash whatever mob breaks off. If you spec into it the cooldown is just 30 seconds, far better than it ever was pre-3.0. And don't forget that Growl now has a huge range so even if something breaks off and goes after a caster or healer too far away to run to, you can still taunt it off from a good distance.
And that's all I got for now.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 2:54am by Tavarde
On multiple targets, Swipe. Swipe, swipe, swipe, that's all you need. Berserk + Mangle whenever you can and you know Berserk will be back up by the next boss. Tabbing and applying Mangle and Lacerate stacks, while something to keep you busy, just isn't essential anymore with the improvements to Swipe, it's as good if not better than Thunderclap or Consecrate (provided you spec into it). Apply Mangle to the primary target, Lacerate if you really want to, but just remember: SWIPE, SWIPE, SWIPE.
On single targets it's the same old deal, Mangle, Lacerate, Maul. But you could really get by with just Mangle, bear threat generation is amazing these days.
Back to multiple targets and an attempt to answer some of your questions. You specifically list mobs breaking off and eating your healers/dps. This I suspect is because you are still thinking pre-3.0 and tabbing to apply Lacerate and Mangle on your secondary targets, thus lowering your threat generation on other mobs that you aren't actively attacking. Just swipe your heart out from the onset of the pull and they will stick to you like glue. If your dps is smart, and your healer doesn't have to drop nuclear bomb heals to keep you alive, no mob should break off.
Best time to use Berserk, in my opinion, is all the time (and like stated above, when you know the cooldown will be ready for an upcoming boss). Don't waste it on single pulls though, save it for multiple mob pulls, it's freakin' godly.
I use Maul all the time, but that's only because I'm not having any issues with rage right now. At the very end of BC though I was in sick top end badge/Tier 5 gear so most things were barely grazing me, hence I had poor rage generation and didn't use Maul very much as it IS very hard on the rage. But these days in average blues/epics and 31% dodge I get hit more than enough to keep my rage at an acceptable level to spam Maul. Don't spam Maul though if you cannot afford to do so.
If at all possible, Bash whatever mob breaks off. If you spec into it the cooldown is just 30 seconds, far better than it ever was pre-3.0. And don't forget that Growl now has a huge range so even if something breaks off and goes after a caster or healer too far away to run to, you can still taunt it off from a good distance.
And that's all I got for now.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 2:54am by Tavarde
I am not 100% but I don't think you need to turn to Growl any more. I think I have used it when they are behind me. Otherwise every one else summed most everything up nicely. Will double check next time I play.
Except Natures Grasp works in bear form also. Haven't had much use for it but I could use it in theory.
Also there is a rarity of bear tanks these days, at least on my server. So you will be one of the few, the proud, the furry.
Bear tanks FTW.
Except Natures Grasp works in bear form also. Haven't had much use for it but I could use it in theory.
Also there is a rarity of bear tanks these days, at least on my server. So you will be one of the few, the proud, the furry.
Bear tanks FTW.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
I know this might we a little off track for this post, but I seem to have problems with DPS not giving me the time I need to generate threat. Last night I tanked HoL (reg) twice so that a fury Warrior guildie could gear up for Heroics. There were times he would be on the mobs before me after using FFF to pull. I'm still new to tanking so, any suggestions?
Point out the fact that you need to have all the mobs on top of you so you can get your Swipe spam started, and if the DPS starts in too early/on the wrong mob it may be trouble for them and everyone else. A few seconds while everything gets rolling won't kill anyone, whereas jumping the gun very well might.
Lastar wrote:
I know this might we a little off track for this post, but I seem to have problems with DPS not giving me the time I need to generate threat. Last night I tanked HoL (reg) twice so that a fury Warrior guildie could gear up for Heroics. There were times he would be on the mobs before me after using FFF to pull. I'm still new to tanking so, any suggestions?
That's why I have a reputation as "hardass but good". If people are stupid that way, I yell at them. If they do it again I let them die. People forget that aggro is not instant. It's fast, but not instant.
As for tanking mobs,
Threat Meters and You
The game now has built in threat meters. When you turn health bars on, they will have an aura equivalent to your threat. In level of desirability:
Red -- you have aggro solidly, dps on this mob sees no aura
Orange -- someone is close to you on threat. Whoever it is sees a yellow aura.
Yellow -- You are close to the current target's threat. When tanking this means you should threat-bomb that target to snap it to you.
No aura -- the mob is attacking someone else. That party member will have a red aura around their party frame. Target the mob and taunt ASAP. Once you get used to reading the bars this is surprisingly easy to spot.
The auras are easy to read at a glance once you get used to them.
Tanking different numbers of enemies:
1 mob: as has been said, mangle while keeping lacerate up and Maul at all times you don't need rage (most of the time once the fight gets going). If you need a rage dump while Mangle is on cooldown spam more Lacerate.
2 mobs: As one mob if you have the Maul glyph (and this is pretty much a MUST GET glyph for bears). Replace ragedump lacerates with swipes. You should hold both fine assuming the dps is following your main target. Incidentals like blade flurry and AoE are no match.
3 mobs: Berserk (used as a bonus on 1 or 2) owns here. It's a short cooldown so don't be afraid to use it. Spam mangles and Maul, and I guarantee at least one mob will be dead when Berserk ends, and the other two will be stapled to you.
More: I don't have the same results as others with Swipe, it can't hold up to AoE spam in my groups. Here I'll use swipe, a challenging roar when the first mob turns away, Maul, Berserk, and anything I lose results in a yell at the dps to watch their damn threat meters. Those things are built in now, there's ZERO excuse.
Knockback attacks:
I hate these. Sometimes they pull aggro easily (since you're at range now, reduced threat). Ranged attackers stay out there, and everything's scattered out of range of swipe, mangle or berserk. We like enemies clustered, and Shamans Mages and other Druids can foul that up. These spells have uses, Druids for example get a spell interrupt and instant-cast AoE. The problem is when someone uses them without thinking, or just because he can, especially the Shaman and Mage ones, which are caster-centered. Typhoon tends more towards punting everyone the same way.
Don't be afraid to speak up if someone's causing issues. My brother's a Boomkin a lot of the time, and while he understood my issues he still had a lot of trouble registering at the moment whether to use Typhoon or not. A stint of him as feral in a pug with another Druid did more good than weeks of discussion, and now I may not force him to get the glyph next patch (lowers cost but removes knockback, or as I call it, "win-win").
Edited, Jan 2nd 2009 12:04pm by selebrin
Wow...
Thanks to everyone for their great advice, it all makes a lot of sense and I'm starting to put the larger picture together. There were a few things mentioned I hadn't considered so I'm already a better tank.
Jeebar, I didn't realise they had extended the range of growl so that was good to know thanks.
Tavarde, you are right in that I found if I started lacerating on packs too early it was easy for the DPS to pull them off me... I needed to lay down a couple of swipes to build up my threat. Consequently I'm not bothering with it so much anymore.
Cheers to everyone for their help!
Thanks to everyone for their great advice, it all makes a lot of sense and I'm starting to put the larger picture together. There were a few things mentioned I hadn't considered so I'm already a better tank.
Jeebar, I didn't realise they had extended the range of growl so that was good to know thanks.
Tavarde, you are right in that I found if I started lacerating on packs too early it was easy for the DPS to pull them off me... I needed to lay down a couple of swipes to build up my threat. Consequently I'm not bothering with it so much anymore.
Cheers to everyone for their help!
Selebrin, thanks for the breakdown on the aura colors. I've seen the auras and kind of assumed thats what they were showing, but its nice to have it written down. I've seen the red and yellow auras, don't remember seeing an orange one though. I'll have to send the list to my buddy the Fury Warrior. I had a talk with him and he better understands why I need time, we haven't run anything yet so I'll have to wait and see if the talk did any good.
I was finally able to tank H CoS to completion. Maybe the DPS is starting to listen when I tell them to give me time. My first two attempt failed after the first boss.
I was finally able to tank H CoS to completion. Maybe the DPS is starting to listen when I tell them to give me time. My first two attempt failed after the first boss.
Lastar wrote:
Selebrin, thanks for the breakdown on the aura colors. I've seen the auras and kind of assumed thats what they were showing, but its nice to have it written down. I've seen the red and yellow auras, don't remember seeing an orange one though. I'll have to send the list to my buddy the Fury Warrior. I had a talk with him and he better understands why I need time, we haven't run anything yet so I'll have to wait and see if the talk did any good.
I was finally able to tank H CoS to completion. Maybe the DPS is starting to listen when I tell them to give me time. My first two attempt failed after the first boss.
I was finally able to tank H CoS to completion. Maybe the DPS is starting to listen when I tell them to give me time. My first two attempt failed after the first boss.
Stratholme is particularly irritating because everyone's in a hurry for the timer. I've killed the guy twice out of all my runs because either we don't have the dps (and to be fair, healing and tanking) to go as fast as we need to, or someone rushes too much and causes a wipe. The last pull before Meathook in particular seems deadly. I hate having to pick out the elites, unable to spam berserk and rely on it hitting what it needs to.
As for the auras I don't see orange much either. I believe Scrolling Text pops up "Losing threat" or something like that when it's close, followed by "Changed Target" when you lose it. Most of the time I either have threat by a mile or it's swipe-aggro, so the space between those two is very small.
I will stress again that the auras can be difficult to notice, so don't feel bad if they take some adjustment. I can now spot one mob on the wrong guy in a crowd, but when I first started looking Red was very difficult to see for me.
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