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#27 Jan 22 2009 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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brodarus wrote:
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3 / 3 Deep Wounds - waaaait... WHAT??? hell yeah! 10% more damage compared to the 3% I lose from not maxing cruelty + more threat!


I agree with your observation that Deep Wounds is better for AOE tanking.

But maybe I'm missing something, because I don't see how 3/3 deep wounds gives a flat 10% damage increase? At an 7.75% crit rating, you have (in round numbers) an 8% chance to do 50% weapon damage. That's an average 4% of weapon damage, not 10%. And probably less than 4% because unlike crit damage, deep wounds can only be applied once every 6 seconds.

If we are talking strictly AOE damage, then I agree Deep Wounds comes into it's own. By my calculations, Deep Wounds is 2 or 3 times more effective than Cruelty for Damage Shield.

But just the opposite applies for big damage-dealing abilities such as shield slam, revenge, and shockwave. By my calculations, Deep Wounds is only 1/4th as effective for these abilities as Cruelty.


There's more than enough math discussion to back this up over at elitistjerks. I suggest you go read some.
#28 Jan 22 2009 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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You're also forgetting raid buffs and talent buffs to crit chance. In my standard tanking gear (not DPS oriented) I'm sitting at between 9-10% crit. Add in rampage/LotP and a ret pally. That's 8% more to crit. Throw in a Mark, Kings, we'll be conservative and say I'm at 19% crit. Then of course, we have crit modifiers on key abilities in the prot tree. Sword and Board, Incite, and Critical Block all give me 15% crit to devastate, heroic strike, shield slam, and thunderclap. That puts me up to 34% crit on staple warriors abilities. I can throw on more DPS oriented tanking gear and ramp that crit chance up to nearly 40%. Doesn't Deep Wounds start to sound a lot more attractive when you look at it that way?

Edit: Deep wounds isn't just every 6 seconds now, either. It stacks and rolls now. If you get 4 crits in a row, each crit will stack and roll on top of the previous one before it, and each will fall off in their own 6 seconds window.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2009 4:30pm by FletusSanguine
#29 Jan 22 2009 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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You're also forgetting raid buffs and talent buffs to crit chance.....Doesn't Deep Wounds start to sound a lot more attractive when you look at it that way?

Yes indeed it does. Plus I forgot to factor in the fact that Deep Wounds ignores armor, making it about twice as effective in practise as it looks on paper.


Quote:
Deep wounds isn't just every 6 seconds now, either. It stacks and rolls now. If you get 4 crits in a row, each crit will stack and roll on top of the previous one before it, and each will fall off in their own 6 seconds window.

Wow, nice.


Quote:
3 points in Cruelty averages out to a 3% dps increase, not exact but close. Deep Wounds averages a 10% dps increase.
I would think the Deep Wounds dps increase is proportional to the number of mobs, not a flat percentage increase. Where is this "10%" coming from?
#30 Jan 22 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
brodarus wrote:
Quote:
You're also forgetting raid buffs and talent buffs to crit chance.....Doesn't Deep Wounds start to sound a lot more attractive when you look at it that way?

Yes indeed it does. Plus I forgot to factor in the fact that Deep Wounds ignores armor, making it about twice as effective in practise as it looks on paper.


Quote:
Deep wounds isn't just every 6 seconds now, either. It stacks and rolls now. If you get 4 crits in a row, each crit will stack and roll on top of the previous one before it, and each will fall off in their own 6 seconds window.

Wow, nice.


Quote:
3 points in Cruelty averages out to a 3% dps increase, not exact but close. Deep Wounds averages a 10% dps increase.
I would think the Deep Wounds dps increase is proportional to the number of mobs, not a flat percentage increase. Where is this "10%" coming from?


The 10% comes from recount. In a 5 man it'll typically be lower, such as 6% or so but that's because everything dies so fast. In raids I'll typically get 10% or more. For instance, in 25 man Naxx my total dps for the run this week had Deep Wounds in the #1 spot with 16% of my dps, but that number was inflated as I dpsed as prot during Loatheb, Sapphiron, and Thaddius. I got 4k, 2.4k and 4.5k respectively with Thaddius dps being 30% deep wounds. If I had not dpsed those fights, I would've seen my regular 10% value.
#31 Jan 23 2009 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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It's definitely not the highest I've done, but here's a SS of DPS on a boss in heroic UP earlier today for anyone curious about the build and the % of the DPS that comes from DW.

UP Boss
#32 Jan 26 2009 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
As this is my prot build thread, I decided to post this comment here rather than make a new thread. This is purely discussion only as I am not going to try this build.

Anyway, after that disclaimer, there's a new build making the rounds. In it, many prot talents are given up in the favor of arms talents. Before any more dicussion I will link an example of this kind of build. Understandably it's in the works, has limited viability, and can be tweaked in any number of ways. This is just one example, so no arguing over the finer points.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LA0I0fht00rR0bZZMItrx0zid

What's the purpose in this build? Main tanking. It has absolutely no viability as a trash tank. It should only be used if there's another prot warrior in the raid stacking devastates. It should ONLY be used in a 25 man raid where your offtanks can keep up sunder and can adequately tank the trash.

Why this build? Well let's go back to what I said about how a tank needs to increase their dps. This build does not give up much in the way of survivability. What it does give up is a lot of the prot threat tools while picking up Arms single target massive threat / damage increases.

There are prot warriors, main tanking, pushing 4.5k dps with this build on Patchwerk. The reason why is you can chain Revenges and Shield Slams almost nonstop for incredible damage and TPS. You won't see anyone, ever, pull threat off you with this build.

You will also be a garbage offtank and you will be worthless on fights like Sarth + 3 Drakes / Gothik. You need to respec for Sarth + 3 Drakes and you need offtanks to pick up the adds in Gothik. But on fights where you are single target tanking bosses, you will be the IDEAL main tank. Most damage, most threat, and perfectly fine on survivability.

When dual specs come out you may see more and more warriors taking this as their boss tanking build with a more traditional 15 / 5 / 51 build for trash tanking.

Any ideas or comments? I personally will not be taking this build. I do not always MT bosses in my guild and frequently dps because I am one of the best dpsers in my guild even when I'm prot. When dual specs come out my second will be fury.
#33 Jan 27 2009 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I've actually been considering picking up that exact build, the only thing that's keeping me from doing so is that I often times will put my OTs into the MT role, because I feel it's important that I'm not the person in front of the boss every time. As a result, I'd rather not be useless when I'm not tanking. However...I'm still very strongly considering it, at the very least to try. I really wish they had a training dummy I could use that would proc revenge and give me rage so I could try that build in a controlled environment.

Edit: Another concern of mine with that build, in the month and a half or so that I've been considering it, is that I'm just not sure how often I'd be able to maintain the revenge usage needed for it. In theory I'd be spamming it constantly, but most bosses don't have super fast attack speeds, and I don't have 100% avoidance. I don't think I'd be able to proc revenge enough to maintain a 2s revenge cooldown...unless, that is, revenge isn't tied to the usage of the ability but a timer from when it procs. Truth be told, I don't know which it is because I've never really paid attention to it. Up until this spec became a thought, I've never had to worry about using revenge twice in a row. If it's a timer, this build would become much more attractive.

Edited, Jan 27th 2009 5:45am by FletusSanguine
#34 Jan 29 2009 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
Can we get some more info on this hybrid build? I cant find anything.
#35 Jan 29 2009 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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There's not much about it because it's really not that appealing of a build. I'd be curious to try it out one night in Naxx and see what I can do against Patch with it, but truth be told I doubt I'd keep it. You DO get good DPS returns out of it, but to be honest it's not a massive DPS boost by any means. The gains I've read about it seem fairly minor, and the majority of those that have tried it feel that the things you have to trade for it are too great. There's been some discussion of it on EJ, I believe Xav did some testing of the build.

I'm still not sure. I might pick it up when dual specs release just to play with it on a fight or two, but for the time being I don't plan on trying it. I simply don't want to have to use it for a full raid night when I feel that for all but a handful of fights it would hinder me more than anything.
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