http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0xfoexoqrsIuZ0xA0bZxb
Hopefully that linked to the correct build.
So I noticed that most Mutilate builds generally go into Sub secondary for a chance to hide from people. I want to try something different, probably not new, but different. Instead of relying on hiding, I specced Deadened Nerves and Deflection hoping that I could just tank (figuratively >.>) blows and dish out damage. Vanish would basically just be reduced to a anti-snare. I got tired of the buggy stealth so i was hoping for something that would not force me to stealth so much and I like Deadened Nerves.
Is Deadened Nerves and Deflection in conjunction worthwhile? I plan on playing around with this anyways, but what are some glaring flaws that I might want to take into consideration? Any tips on how I might better construct what I'm aiming for?
With love, from Soup. :D
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Uncommon approach to PVP Mutilate, Need insight.Follow
The flaw I see is that nothing is going to save you from the burst no matter how you spec.
The reason for going into sub isnt just for hiding, it's for getting through burst. If you end up against a rogue, you die, if you end up stunned or against any 2x dps team, you die. If i'm found, i'm always killed first, so you can't get found. Sooooo many roguex1 or x2 teams in 2's and 3's that you have to get that sap off and break their stealth first, and you need to go into sub for that.
Our burst is insane right now, that's why speccing full sub or mut/prep is amazing for just raping any unstealthed-non-paladin person you can find.
The reason for going into sub isnt just for hiding, it's for getting through burst. If you end up against a rogue, you die, if you end up stunned or against any 2x dps team, you die. If i'm found, i'm always killed first, so you can't get found. Sooooo many roguex1 or x2 teams in 2's and 3's that you have to get that sap off and break their stealth first, and you need to go into sub for that.
Our burst is insane right now, that's why speccing full sub or mut/prep is amazing for just raping any unstealthed-non-paladin person you can find.
While Deadened Nerves and Deflection seem like good talents because other classes' versions of the same are less powerful point-for-point, as a rogue talents like those are just bad and you'd be better off taking the points in Sub to get an extra set of CDs.
Look at it this way, if you get stunlocked and bursted with your CDs down, you can still trinket prep vanish sprint away (if vanish works...) but without prep all you get is 6% less damage (Ok, it's going to take them 1080 more dmg if you are around 18k hp to kill you, big deal) and 6% parry (Parry doesn't work while stunned, against spells, or ranged damage.) While you might've just saved your life with a few cooldowns, you would've easily died with Deadened Nerves and Deflection.
Another thing is that the talents in Combat aren't as strong for PvP as some of the ones in deep Sub. Take Dirty Deeds, for example. Hitting an extra 600 on your 3k mut when someone is nearly dead is nearly always enough to change the outcome of the battle, and the reduced energy cost on openers helps a ton too. Things like Heightened Senses will save your **** hundreds of times from other rogues with the same talent (Night Elves and Humans also get racial bonuses to their stealth/stealth sight) and that talent combined with Master of Deception puts you at the top of talented stealth skills. Preparation isn't only for survivability as well, you can use it to get that extra sprint or vanish>garrote to finish someone off before they escape, and it gives you 2 cold bloods in a row for a decent beginning burst.
All in all, the only time you would want things like Deadened Nerves and Deflection is when you are trying to tank raid fights as a rogue (It has happened succesfully.)
TL;DR: Boylee is right.
Look at it this way, if you get stunlocked and bursted with your CDs down, you can still trinket prep vanish sprint away (if vanish works...) but without prep all you get is 6% less damage (Ok, it's going to take them 1080 more dmg if you are around 18k hp to kill you, big deal) and 6% parry (Parry doesn't work while stunned, against spells, or ranged damage.) While you might've just saved your life with a few cooldowns, you would've easily died with Deadened Nerves and Deflection.
Another thing is that the talents in Combat aren't as strong for PvP as some of the ones in deep Sub. Take Dirty Deeds, for example. Hitting an extra 600 on your 3k mut when someone is nearly dead is nearly always enough to change the outcome of the battle, and the reduced energy cost on openers helps a ton too. Things like Heightened Senses will save your **** hundreds of times from other rogues with the same talent (Night Elves and Humans also get racial bonuses to their stealth/stealth sight) and that talent combined with Master of Deception puts you at the top of talented stealth skills. Preparation isn't only for survivability as well, you can use it to get that extra sprint or vanish>garrote to finish someone off before they escape, and it gives you 2 cold bloods in a row for a decent beginning burst.
All in all, the only time you would want things like Deadened Nerves and Deflection is when you are trying to tank raid fights as a rogue (It has happened succesfully.)
TL;DR: Boylee is right.
What has been said, basically. If you want to be more of a toe-to-toe rogue, you ought to go completely combat. The way I see this it's more of a 'normal' rogue build where you focus on burst and stealth, except that you replace stealth by a small amount of toe-to-toe survivability. That just doesn't work; you either go burst/stealth or completely toe-to-toe. Also, any mutilate build will per definition have 7 points in subtlety and 5 in combat, which makes getting higher up the sub tree easier than getting higher up the combat tree.
It could work if you combined subtlety with combat, rather than assassination. And hey, there's VARP.
It could work if you combined subtlety with combat, rather than assassination. And hey, there's VARP.
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(if vanish works...)
It's funny 'cause it's true, lol.
You all make great points, thank you very much. I still want to try Deadened Nerves, but I will give up on Deflection for now. On top of that I will head for Prep secondary. I love messing around with specs. I've spent 250 on respeccing for playing around and I'm prolly gunna spend another 50. Skinning has made me rich, lol. Thanks again, guys.
EDIT: Ermmm, what's VARP?
Edited, Dec 29th 2008 3:16pm by LiptonSoup
LiptonSoup wrote:
Ermmm, what's VARP?
It is a mixture of Vitality, Adrenaline Rush and Preparation. There are sample builds in the Compendium if you want to try it out. I'm not sure if they are updated at level 80, but it will give you the general principle, and you can play with the extra 10 points however you like.
Good Luck.
It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. -Albert Einstein
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Better to try Deflection than Deadened Nerves... Seriously though, you should've been convinced that the whole idea is a pointless one. Taking 1 more hand of mutilate to kill makes NO difference, and it would be better to spend 3 talent points on dps, like find weakness, murder, focused attacks, etc. For a pvp build, you should go 41/5/25, just picking up enough for mutilate and just going deep enough into sub to get Prep, 2/2 Heightened Senses, and 2/2 Dirty Deeds. Combat should just be Dual Wield Spec because it helps mut damage a lot.
I'd drop this experimenting, try the current cookie cutter mut pvp, and have fun. You could try ambush spec, but it requires a lot of macros and you need to be used to being behind things (like Mut used to be).
There are reasons why the default specs became the default specs... You can probably min/max a point and decide that 'oh, with this comp i want to play 42/5/24', etc. but sticking with the basic build is the best thing to do.
I'd drop this experimenting, try the current cookie cutter mut pvp, and have fun. You could try ambush spec, but it requires a lot of macros and you need to be used to being behind things (like Mut used to be).
There are reasons why the default specs became the default specs... You can probably min/max a point and decide that 'oh, with this comp i want to play 42/5/24', etc. but sticking with the basic build is the best thing to do.
If I followed your logic, I prolly wouldn't be as good as I am.
Why's that? If you look at top-rated rogues everywhere, 95% of them are currently going to be some variation of 41/5/25, and the ones that aren't are just trying new specs to see how they do at high rating with a less-powerful spec.
Yes, but landing upon a cookie cutter build by experimenting generally turns one into a lot better player than if he were to simply copy the tree. It's going down the same path the 'developers' of the build went that turns you into a good rogue, not copying their results.
You make an excellent point, but the people who made this build didn't do stupid things like Deflection and Deadened Nerves. They knew from past experience that the talents were pointless, and have been forever. (Riposte used to be half decent, if I recall correctly).
If you want to experiment on cookie cutter builds, then experiment with things that aren't stupid. Like maxing Find Weakness and taking 1 less point in Heightened Senses when you are on a team with another rogue with 2/2 Heightened Senses, for example.
If you want to experiment on cookie cutter builds, then experiment with things that aren't stupid. Like maxing Find Weakness and taking 1 less point in Heightened Senses when you are on a team with another rogue with 2/2 Heightened Senses, for example.
What's stupid, though? To me it seems kind of thickheaded to put 41 points in assassination to pick up a combo point builder when you can just pick improved sinister strike for 2 points in the combat tree and be done with it. Yet it appears pretty obvious that mutilate is better than imp sinister strike to anyone who'se ever tried the talents. And since subtlety used to be the PvP tree, how would mut/prep ever have been found if nobody figured they could try something completely different?
I could come up with arguments as to why MoD works in a PvE build if I wanted to; in the end it's all trying and discussing. Which is exactly what the OP is doing. Even what might seem obvious to you and/or me needs the occasional wave of critisism to be defended against. Come to think of it, that might be the problem with the class=4 boards. But enough holy speech for now.
I could come up with arguments as to why MoD works in a PvE build if I wanted to; in the end it's all trying and discussing. Which is exactly what the OP is doing. Even what might seem obvious to you and/or me needs the occasional wave of critisism to be defended against. Come to think of it, that might be the problem with the class=4 boards. But enough holy speech for now.
We're not in the first half of Vanilla WoW when Battlegrounds were introduced, Moz.
Back then, there wasn't really a tried and tested build for anything, and testing things like Deflection and Deadened Nerves (I don't think Deadened Nerves existed back then...) might've made sense. However, if you are levelling through Outland and still getting a feel for your class's PvP style, then you may want to defer to the people who have been playing this game for 4+ years, and those who at least have a Rival title. If we were still trying to down Garr before raid icons were introduced, I might have been intrigued by the idea of Deflection (Even when it was 1/2/3/4/5% instead of 2/4/6) and thought "Hey, that might save my butt a few times if I accidentally pull aggro on a troll berserker in ZG."
There are certainly many incompetent people who play and pick up talent points willy-nilly as they level (Hell, we were all guilty of that back in the day) but I am decently sure we only need half a brain to realize "Hey, Blizz probably had an idea when they made Mut the 41-pt talent, instead of Deadened Nerves."
Even nitpickers can determine with a little bit of math that while getting hit for 60 less on a white hit for 1000 might help after a few dozen hits (Deadened Nerves), picking up deeper talents in sub and hitting 1 more mutilate before Cheap Shot wears off, dealing 1000 more damage after your 5k mut didn't quite finish off that ret pally, getting 1 more evasion and 1 more sprint (In a 45 second 2v2 fight, what's better... 30 seconds of 50% evasion, or 15 seconds of 50% evasion and a bonus 6% less damage / 6% parry?) How about never catching up to an escaping resto druid while a warrior is spamstringing you (You get to die 3.4 seconds later, because it takes 1 more white hit to finish your last 500 hp), or trinketing the imp. hamstring, hitting prep>sprint and finishing off that druid with style?
Back then, there wasn't really a tried and tested build for anything, and testing things like Deflection and Deadened Nerves (I don't think Deadened Nerves existed back then...) might've made sense. However, if you are levelling through Outland and still getting a feel for your class's PvP style, then you may want to defer to the people who have been playing this game for 4+ years, and those who at least have a Rival title. If we were still trying to down Garr before raid icons were introduced, I might have been intrigued by the idea of Deflection (Even when it was 1/2/3/4/5% instead of 2/4/6) and thought "Hey, that might save my butt a few times if I accidentally pull aggro on a troll berserker in ZG."
There are certainly many incompetent people who play and pick up talent points willy-nilly as they level (Hell, we were all guilty of that back in the day) but I am decently sure we only need half a brain to realize "Hey, Blizz probably had an idea when they made Mut the 41-pt talent, instead of Deadened Nerves."
Even nitpickers can determine with a little bit of math that while getting hit for 60 less on a white hit for 1000 might help after a few dozen hits (Deadened Nerves), picking up deeper talents in sub and hitting 1 more mutilate before Cheap Shot wears off, dealing 1000 more damage after your 5k mut didn't quite finish off that ret pally, getting 1 more evasion and 1 more sprint (In a 45 second 2v2 fight, what's better... 30 seconds of 50% evasion, or 15 seconds of 50% evasion and a bonus 6% less damage / 6% parry?) How about never catching up to an escaping resto druid while a warrior is spamstringing you (You get to die 3.4 seconds later, because it takes 1 more white hit to finish your last 500 hp), or trinketing the imp. hamstring, hitting prep>sprint and finishing off that druid with style?
The point is, I wanna see for myself how crappy Deadened Nerves is, if I deem it crappy at all. And that I want to LEARN FOR MYSELF how to play this game. It's my 15$ a month and even if I'm wrong, I'm still having fun. It's great to offer real advice, but to say, "Just pick a cookie cutter and go at it," is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
That's what I'm saying. My point is that every form of research/ideas on specs here is instantly bombarded by people saying "it sucks, go cookie cutter". You say it's not the first half of vanilla WoW, but to be able to constantly determine what usually works best, we nééd to have people constantly trying out new things, even if it might be obvious to some or most of us that it won't work. Yes, the chance that somebody comes up with something worthwhile all of a sudden is small. Yes, most high rated rogues have cookie cutter specs.
But all I'm saying is that we shouldn't kill imagination.
But all I'm saying is that we shouldn't kill imagination.
Killing imagination is one thing, but while I try to formulate a more successful spec in my mind, I don't think about "Hey, wouldn't it be sick if rogues had 10k armor and as much mitigation as prot warriors?" because that is never going to happen while the devs at Blizz are still sane.
When specs were first made, people didn't try things like Deflection, DN, LR, etc, because of how BAD they are. Rogues were never meant to live credibly long with something big poking them, they were supposed to escape the big poker and then come back and KILL IT before it could get out of their stunlock. This is how Blizz described the class, and this is how it tends to remain to this day.
When specs were first made, people didn't try things like Deflection, DN, LR, etc, because of how BAD they are. Rogues were never meant to live credibly long with something big poking them, they were supposed to escape the big poker and then come back and KILL IT before it could get out of their stunlock. This is how Blizz described the class, and this is how it tends to remain to this day.
Didn't Blizz once say that Backstab was the combo point builder rogues should be using in raids, though?
Nevertheless, don't worry, my previous post wasn't really directed to you, it was more of a general message/observation of the rogue forums. I see your point and I accept it, and I've got the feeling you see mine.
Nevertheless, don't worry, my previous post wasn't really directed to you, it was more of a general message/observation of the rogue forums. I see your point and I accept it, and I've got the feeling you see mine.
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"Hey, wouldn't it be sick if rogues had 10k armor and as much mitigation as prot warriors?"
I didn't make so outlandish a suggestion, first of all. Second, I want to learn why things suck, not just that they suck.
Why do people keep downrating Moz? We're having an intelligent discussion about something, not pulling the flame throwers. Seriously, you should save downrate for something you really disagree with or someone just being plain stupid.
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I didn't make so outlandish a suggestion, first of all. Second, I want to learn why things suck, not just that they suck.
I was just using that as an example of thoughts in the general category of rogue tanking. I tried to explain why things like Deflection and DN suck, repeatedly. I don't know whether you didn't read them, or just didn't register what I said in your mind. In PvP, PvE, and everything, DOING MORE DAMAGE AS A ROGUE IS BETTER THAN MITIGATION. Perhaps if the talents were 10/20/30% less damage, 5/10/15% chance to deflect ALL damage, etc, they would be included in more rogue builds.
You've actually made me think... If Blizz ever tweaked combat to give a decent amount of deflection, what would combat PvP be like? The tree already has some semi-PvP talents, and it might even be fun if speccing combat gave you warrior-like survivability to make up for the lack of mobility. S'pose it's hard to balance 'n stuff, but I like the idea.
P.S. Thanks for the heads up, it's appriciated. I suppose wasting time with rating (especially my rating) is useless though, I think somebody hired a Chinese farmer to camp my karma.
P.S. Thanks for the heads up, it's appriciated. I suppose wasting time with rating (especially my rating) is useless though, I think somebody hired a Chinese farmer to camp my karma.
Quote:
DOING MORE DAMAGE AS A ROGUE IS BETTER THAN MITIGATION.
It's only 3 points. If I've given up on Deflection, then that means I should have no problem getting all of the damage enhancing talents. Which I have right now. Save for DW Spec. What bugs me is you're using an over exaggerated statement to exemplify what? Nothing I've said? Exactly. If I had said something like "Rogues should tank cause they can I swear," All of your griping to just go cookie cutter would be worth it.
I was already given great feedback on Deflection so I'm not using it. However, I still felt like Deadened Nerves might be worth it. I wanted to see how much it helped with my own eyes. I shouldn't have to educate you on how people learn different things in different ways. Just give up 'cause I have it specced and I'm not removing it until I either get bored with Mutilate again, or I decide it's not worth it. Which I'm seeing for myself that it really isn't amazing, but it does provide noticeable difference.
this is insane. a civil discussion on the rogue forums. theo would be very disappointed.
you dont want warrior survivability right now moz. we're pretty bottom of the barrel atm, just a hair above warlocks (about tied with elem shaman).
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You've actually made me think... If Blizz ever tweaked combat to give a decent amount of deflection, what would combat PvP be like? The tree already has some semi-PvP talents, and it might even be fun if speccing combat gave you warrior-like survivability to make up for the lack of mobility. S'pose it's hard to balance 'n stuff, but I like the idea.
you dont want warrior survivability right now moz. we're pretty bottom of the barrel atm, just a hair above warlocks (about tied with elem shaman).
Quote:
I want to learn why things suck, not just that they suck.
What's there to learn? It's pretty obvious if you ask me. The highest grade of armor we get to wear is leather and that mitigates exactly jack **** for damage. Stacking -6% damage on top of that won't do anything at all. Rogue fights best by staying hidden and then keeping their opponent locked down and killing them before they get a chance to react, so taking damage should be a secondary concern. Unfortunately it doesn't always go so smoothly and you WILL most likely be trading blows with people, but Deadened Nerves isn't going to keep you alive any longer than a more useful direct-damage talent would. If you focus on stealth and straight damage you stand a good chance of killing any non-plate class before your stunlocks is over, but in the case of plate-wearers you're most likely not going to win anyway unless you have a healer glued to your *** or they happen to be a Warrior.
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However, I still felt like Deadened Nerves might be worth it. I wanted to see how much it helped with my own eyes. I shouldn't have to educate you on how people learn different things in different ways. Just give up 'cause I have it specced and I'm not removing it until I either get bored with Mutilate again, or I decide it's not worth it. Which I'm seeing for myself that it really isn't amazing, but it does provide noticeable difference.
I don't much see the use in asking a question and when someone doesn't say what you wanted to hear you say ********** you, I'm doing it anyway". Trying to seek validation for a bad idea doesn't make you a unique snowflake or some kind of pioneer, it just makes you look stupid.
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Quote:
Quote:
I want to learn why things suck, not just that they suck.
What's there to learn? It's pretty obvious if you ask me. The highest grade of armor we get to wear is leather and that mitigates exactly jack sh*t for damage. Stacking -6% damage on top of that won't do anything at all. Rogue fights best by staying hidden and then keeping their opponent locked down and killing them before they get a chance to react, so taking damage should be a secondary concern. Unfortunately it doesn't always go so smoothly and you WILL most likely be trading blows with people, but Deadened Nerves isn't going to keep you alive any longer than a more useful direct-damage talent would. If you focus on stealth and straight damage you stand a good chance of killing any non-plate class before your stunlocks is over, but in the case of plate-wearers you're most likely not going to win anyway unless you have a healer glued to your *** or they happen to be a Warrior.
Quote:
However, I still felt like Deadened Nerves might be worth it. I wanted to see how much it helped with my own eyes. I shouldn't have to educate you on how people learn different things in different ways. Just give up 'cause I have it specced and I'm not removing it until I either get bored with Mutilate again, or I decide it's not worth it. Which I'm seeing for myself that it really isn't amazing, but it does provide noticeable difference.
I don't much see the use in asking a question and when someone doesn't say what you wanted to hear you say "@#%^ you, I'm doing it anyway". Trying to seek validation for a bad idea doesn't make you a unique snowflake or some kind of pioneer, it just makes you look stupid.
I want to learn why things suck, not just that they suck.
What's there to learn? It's pretty obvious if you ask me. The highest grade of armor we get to wear is leather and that mitigates exactly jack sh*t for damage. Stacking -6% damage on top of that won't do anything at all. Rogue fights best by staying hidden and then keeping their opponent locked down and killing them before they get a chance to react, so taking damage should be a secondary concern. Unfortunately it doesn't always go so smoothly and you WILL most likely be trading blows with people, but Deadened Nerves isn't going to keep you alive any longer than a more useful direct-damage talent would. If you focus on stealth and straight damage you stand a good chance of killing any non-plate class before your stunlocks is over, but in the case of plate-wearers you're most likely not going to win anyway unless you have a healer glued to your *** or they happen to be a Warrior.
Quote:
However, I still felt like Deadened Nerves might be worth it. I wanted to see how much it helped with my own eyes. I shouldn't have to educate you on how people learn different things in different ways. Just give up 'cause I have it specced and I'm not removing it until I either get bored with Mutilate again, or I decide it's not worth it. Which I'm seeing for myself that it really isn't amazing, but it does provide noticeable difference.
I don't much see the use in asking a question and when someone doesn't say what you wanted to hear you say "@#%^ you, I'm doing it anyway". Trying to seek validation for a bad idea doesn't make you a unique snowflake or some kind of pioneer, it just makes you look stupid.
This. This this this this this this this this this this...
Didn't I give up on Deflection? Please don't make me look like I don't give a **** what others think, 'cause that's not the case. I just wanted insight, not to be told how to spend my time and gold. Whatever, can't make everyone happy.
Lol @ Karma. Rate me down, it makes me wet. >.>
Lol @ Karma. Rate me down, it makes me wet. >.>
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