http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=0055021203300310000000000003250530131030102301200100000035200000000000000000000000000
How does this build look?please tell me of any changes I could make
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The first thing I would suggest is decide if you want to use one handers as a dual weilder, or a two hander. I would recomend two hander as the bonuses end up being higher. Also you really aren't looking to do damage as much as create threat. AOE's and things that throw damage back when your hit are exactly what your looking for. If you put those priorities first when choosing abilites you will likely find a build you like better. I don't think there is a perfect build over all so much as pitfalls to avoid.
That said, have fun respec until you find what you like.
That said, have fun respec until you find what you like.
I'm no expert by any means. I have a 79 DK and have been looking to do a tanking build. It does seem to be the general consensus that any tree can tank, it's merely a matter of gear chooses. On that note I'd think you do better to pick a tree and go deep enough to grab what works to your play style. Unbreakable armor and Guile of Gorefiend are nice for a tank to have. IMO, which matters very little, it would seem this build is better for solo play or single target tanking but may not work well for raid or multi-target tanking. Again that's just what my thoughts were and are subject to error. I'm with Dethsbane though, test drive it for a bit and see, worse case you're wrong and have to respec. Have fun.
Quote:
The first thing I would suggest is decide if you want to use one handers as a dual weilder, or a two hander. I would recomend two hander as the bonuses end up being higher. Also you really aren't looking to do damage as much as create threat. AOE's and things that throw damage back when your hit are exactly what your looking for. If you put those priorities first when choosing abilites you will likely find a build you like better. I don't think there is a perfect build over all so much as pitfalls to avoid.
That said, have fun respec until you find what you like.
That said, have fun respec until you find what you like.
NO.
NEVER use Dual Wield for tanking. EVER. All you do is cause yourself to take way more damage, which drains the healer's Mana, which means you cannot last as long.
FURTHERMORE, a two-hander allows a DK to create WAY more threat than DWing.
And I'm not even going to touch the rest of the comment
[EDIT]
The major difference between a tank build and a DpS build is that a tank build will always go 5/5/5.
Other things apply, of course, but you do not have a tanking build without those 3 talents.
Edited, Jan 1st 2009 2:16pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
The major difference between a tank build and a DpS build is that a tank build will always go 5/5/5.
Other things apply, of course, but you do not have a tanking build without those 3 talents.
Other things apply, of course, but you do not have a tanking build without those 3 talents.
Thanks for the tips, I will put a few more points down the frost line for Guile of Gorefiend and such. What points should I remove from other trees to get the 4 other points needed(have 36 points in frost ATM+ 3 points removed from Dual-Weild)?
P.S I am a bit puzzled on what 5/5/5 build involves talent wise. Mind explaining?
Edited, Jan 1st 2009 9:59pm by Lichbourne
26 posts
The 5/5/5 refers to Blade Barrier (5) / Toughness (5) / Anticipation (5), or this.
This gets most of the avoidance talents with out losing much for any build you want, and is a good way to start an OT build too.
This gets most of the avoidance talents with out losing much for any build you want, and is a good way to start an OT build too.
I don't know how talents apply to the parry/dodge/armor caps, but, it IS possible that a 5/5/5 build may become obsolete, depending on how itemization for higher tiers of raid gear goes (if it has enough +Defense, +parry, etc).
Note: Apparently the armor cap for Wrath is VERY, VERY high, to counter the problems Druids had in BC, which DKs would also suffer from if it was low.
But, for the moment, 15 points for 15% more armor, 5% more dodge and +10% Parry for 10 seconds (or whatever the duration) when your blood runes are down is VERY nice.
And, about the build specifically, I would recommend you really look at it and try and find a way to (at least) build your way up to GoG (I would never pass up +6s to IF, personally, if I was already that deep in Frost). It is like being an Unholy tank and not using the rune giving Bone Shield an additional charge.
And, I would imagine, that +10% damage when FF is up is very nice.
And, if you think about it, Hungering Cold is a nice AoE tanking Oh-Sh*t button. 10 seconds for your healer to catch up, for CC to reorganize, for CDs to come back up, etc.
I personally tend not to go deep into 3 trees--the final abilities are usually too pretty for me to pass up. But, if you don't think HC is for you, I would still suggest really thinking about the abilities you will use and how you will be using them.
And, another note, I would imagine that Two-Handed Specialization ONLY applies to white hits. PERSONALLY, I wouldn't bother with it if I wasn't tanking as blood--but it IS your choice.
I highly recommend reading this for tanking info. The only thing they are lacking happens to be the thing I am most interested with. :P (Unholy Tanking builds).
And, just to reaffirm, DON'T dual wield. The only reason you even would is to get +Def swords, but they are adding tanking 2-handers in the next patch and you can get above the tanking cap with all crafted gear--making it unnecessary.
Note: Apparently the armor cap for Wrath is VERY, VERY high, to counter the problems Druids had in BC, which DKs would also suffer from if it was low.
But, for the moment, 15 points for 15% more armor, 5% more dodge and +10% Parry for 10 seconds (or whatever the duration) when your blood runes are down is VERY nice.
And, about the build specifically, I would recommend you really look at it and try and find a way to (at least) build your way up to GoG (I would never pass up +6s to IF, personally, if I was already that deep in Frost). It is like being an Unholy tank and not using the rune giving Bone Shield an additional charge.
And, I would imagine, that +10% damage when FF is up is very nice.
And, if you think about it, Hungering Cold is a nice AoE tanking Oh-Sh*t button. 10 seconds for your healer to catch up, for CC to reorganize, for CDs to come back up, etc.
I personally tend not to go deep into 3 trees--the final abilities are usually too pretty for me to pass up. But, if you don't think HC is for you, I would still suggest really thinking about the abilities you will use and how you will be using them.
And, another note, I would imagine that Two-Handed Specialization ONLY applies to white hits. PERSONALLY, I wouldn't bother with it if I wasn't tanking as blood--but it IS your choice.
I highly recommend reading this for tanking info. The only thing they are lacking happens to be the thing I am most interested with. :P (Unholy Tanking builds).
And, just to reaffirm, DON'T dual wield. The only reason you even would is to get +Def swords, but they are adding tanking 2-handers in the next patch and you can get above the tanking cap with all crafted gear--making it unnecessary.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=0055021000000000000000000003250500133530102301200131351005000000000000000000000000000
I created this revised version with all of your comments taken to consideration. Did I nail all the points you described or did I miss a crucial point or 2 in a talent?
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 8:41pm by Lichbourne
I created this revised version with all of your comments taken to consideration. Did I nail all the points you described or did I miss a crucial point or 2 in a talent?
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 8:41pm by Lichbourne
Quote:
NO.
NEVER use Dual Wield for tanking. EVER. All you do is cause yourself to take way more damage, which drains the healer's Mana, which means you cannot last as long.
FURTHERMORE, a two-hander allows a DK to create WAY more threat than DWing.
And I'm not even going to touch the rest of the comment
NEVER use Dual Wield for tanking. EVER. All you do is cause yourself to take way more damage, which drains the healer's Mana, which means you cannot last as long.
FURTHERMORE, a two-hander allows a DK to create WAY more threat than DWing.
And I'm not even going to touch the rest of the comment
I'm going to say that with recent changed to the DW build and the way it works, a tank build MIGHT be somewhat viable, however my personal opinion is you give up too much to build around a tank build + DW based builds.
bottom line is we shouldnt come out and say "its not going to work now or ever", but we should say "its not proven, and you should not do it unless you understand the class mechanics VERY well and are willing to do some math/testing". DK is too new to say something is 100% awful and should never be used, except corpse explosion :X
Quote:
I'm going to say that with recent changed to the DW build and the way it works, a tank build MIGHT be somewhat viable, however my personal opinion is you give up too much to build around a tank build + DW based builds.
bottom line is we shouldnt come out and say "its not going to work now or ever", but we should say "its not proven, and you should not do it unless you understand the class mechanics VERY well and are willing to do some math/testing". DK is too new to say something is 100% awful and should never be used, except corpse explosion :X
bottom line is we shouldnt come out and say "its not going to work now or ever", but we should say "its not proven, and you should not do it unless you understand the class mechanics VERY well and are willing to do some math/testing". DK is too new to say something is 100% awful and should never be used, except corpse explosion :X
I'm unaware of any change to Dual Wield that may potentially mitigate its fatal flaw--increased damage. (I just looked through MMO-Champion quickly to check this as well).
As long as that is in place, it is highly unlikely Dual-Wielding will ever be worthwhile for a tank. You can get more than enough defensive gear, two-handed weapons with mitigation stats and the +4% Parry or the other tanking rune.
Threat isn't the problem with DWing, it is the fact that the more a boss parries, the more damage he/she/it deals.
[EDIT]
Check out these two tanking builds provided by Elitist Jerks.
This one is crafted with the idea that you will have an Enhancement Shaman in the raid: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGxxzhed0hRVosx0g
This one is what you should go with if you don't normally have an enhancement shaman, or only have one some of the time: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGxxthcbohRVosx0g
And, if you generally run with multiple Paladins, you may want to drop Frost Aura, as it uses up two talent points and does not stack with the stronger Pally auras.
Elitist Jerks wrote:
For the build w/o Imp Icy Talons there will be significant variation in the first half of the tree due to the lack of obvious replacement talents for Imp Icy Talons. Killing Machine is typically an increase in threat compared to Imp Icy Talons (assuming WF is present), but feels lackluster for 5 points. Other options are Icy Reach to help with pulling or Merciless Combat for increased threat/DPS at the end of fights. Another area of variation will be whether or not to get Acclimation, it can be good, but it is not clear if it will stack with resist totems/auras and it is not useful on non-caster bosses.
Frost aura's contribution is debatable and some argue "better" places to put the points.
Hungering cold is highly situational at best and is largely considered a PvP talent. In my personal tanking experience I would never use it, as I haven't encountered single (or multiple even) packs where the damage incoming was too high. I've always preferred AOE to just burn everything down, and I've had the threat to allow (encourage) this.
Frost aura's contribution is debatable and some argue "better" places to put the points.
Hungering cold is highly situational at best and is largely considered a PvP talent. In my personal tanking experience I would never use it, as I haven't encountered single (or multiple even) packs where the damage incoming was too high. I've always preferred AOE to just burn everything down, and I've had the threat to allow (encourage) this.
So, compare your build and think about whether or not certain talents are important enough to use your points where they didn't.
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 4:10am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Finally a thread that didn't turn in to a flame fest and actually helped other besides the OP. I was having the hardest time finding info on Elitest Jerks but it's good to find this stuff on here. Thanks for the reseacrh guyzos.
The biggest problem with EJ is that the info you want is, 99.9999% of the time, mixed in with and separated by a lot of info that you don't care about/already know. You also get a lot of people who act like they know what they are talking about, but they don't.
For example, about DWing tanking, one person claimed (with proper grammar and spelling, making it harder to disbelieve) that the dual defensive bonuses makes up for the parrygibbing.
It was, of course, completely unfounded.
A. You will attack, at best, 2 more times with two 1-handed weapons over a 2-hander. This is VERY skewed towards the best-case scenario, because with the normal tanking swords in game, you will be attacking 3+ times more often, until you get the tanking sword from Naxx.
B. Bosses have an estimated 15-16% Parry.
C. You would have to be at the expertise cap to nuetralize parries and, even then, it is unclear if diminishing returns still prevents this. Plus, you would have to sacrifice so many defensive stats on gear in order to get expertise that the reason you started to DW in the first place is moot, because you would have better stats overall with a hard-hitting two-hander.
So, in order to trade out weapons with avoidance stats equal to, at best, 1% in avoidance traits, you would be opening yourself up to a potential 2x to 3x the attacks, severely increasing the chance of being taken out in the span of seconds. Why?
Picture this:
Boss attacks you.
MH attack, boss parries, you get hit again.
OH attack, boss parries, you get hit again.
Boss attacks you (or you attack again and he parries).
Sure, you MAY dodge some of those additional parry swings, but 1% dodge isn't going to account for the 2x attacks.
And your healers will not be happy with such horrible inconsistency.
For example, about DWing tanking, one person claimed (with proper grammar and spelling, making it harder to disbelieve) that the dual defensive bonuses makes up for the parrygibbing.
It was, of course, completely unfounded.
A. You will attack, at best, 2 more times with two 1-handed weapons over a 2-hander. This is VERY skewed towards the best-case scenario, because with the normal tanking swords in game, you will be attacking 3+ times more often, until you get the tanking sword from Naxx.
B. Bosses have an estimated 15-16% Parry.
C. You would have to be at the expertise cap to nuetralize parries and, even then, it is unclear if diminishing returns still prevents this. Plus, you would have to sacrifice so many defensive stats on gear in order to get expertise that the reason you started to DW in the first place is moot, because you would have better stats overall with a hard-hitting two-hander.
So, in order to trade out weapons with avoidance stats equal to, at best, 1% in avoidance traits, you would be opening yourself up to a potential 2x to 3x the attacks, severely increasing the chance of being taken out in the span of seconds. Why?
Picture this:
Boss attacks you.
MH attack, boss parries, you get hit again.
OH attack, boss parries, you get hit again.
Boss attacks you (or you attack again and he parries).
Sure, you MAY dodge some of those additional parry swings, but 1% dodge isn't going to account for the 2x attacks.
And your healers will not be happy with such horrible inconsistency.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
with regards to the parry numbers, i haven't run them personally but i've seen a couple threads on the damage intake. unfortunately the chance for higher burst damage exists, but the fact remains that in general a dw dk supposedly will parry less than or equal to a warrior, not to mention the avoidance on those parries. numbers run show a 1~2% damage taken increase, with the number being set at 2-5 parries more per encounter. There were threads on mmo-champion about it which supposedly cross referenced something in either EJ or tankspot (cant remember which).
just to set a record here, i do not dw tank, or dw dk at all at the moment (dont feel i'm geared enough for it yet to try it either), and i have no plans to dw tank either.
what i'm trying to say though, is that because crushing blows are out of the game, the parry gibbing IS an issue, but its nowhere near as bad as it was in tBC. The problem in tBC was forcing the boss to haste and getting crushed (mostly through blowing shield block charges).
Also, blue posts have confirmed that not all bosses have parry haste anymore (just parry), patchwork being one of them.
All I'm saying is that we need to be a little more objective about dw tanking. i'm personally not going to try it but there's bound to be some theorycrafters out there who could present a good case for it, and its possible it could work for some people. but like i said before most DKs shouldnt try it unless they know the game mechanics very well and are willing to put the effort/gear into working it.
Edit:
Parry does not mean the boss gets a free instant attack. I don't understand the mechanics exactly but i do know that parry haste seems to be based on how long till the boss's next attack. if the boss got a free instant attack on you then it would suck, but as it stands now you just get hit a little faster on average, and in best case scenarios its a very low amount over the course of an encounter.
I'll try to find the threads and repost them later.
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 12:30pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
just to set a record here, i do not dw tank, or dw dk at all at the moment (dont feel i'm geared enough for it yet to try it either), and i have no plans to dw tank either.
what i'm trying to say though, is that because crushing blows are out of the game, the parry gibbing IS an issue, but its nowhere near as bad as it was in tBC. The problem in tBC was forcing the boss to haste and getting crushed (mostly through blowing shield block charges).
Also, blue posts have confirmed that not all bosses have parry haste anymore (just parry), patchwork being one of them.
All I'm saying is that we need to be a little more objective about dw tanking. i'm personally not going to try it but there's bound to be some theorycrafters out there who could present a good case for it, and its possible it could work for some people. but like i said before most DKs shouldnt try it unless they know the game mechanics very well and are willing to put the effort/gear into working it.
Edit:
Parry does not mean the boss gets a free instant attack. I don't understand the mechanics exactly but i do know that parry haste seems to be based on how long till the boss's next attack. if the boss got a free instant attack on you then it would suck, but as it stands now you just get hit a little faster on average, and in best case scenarios its a very low amount over the course of an encounter.
I'll try to find the threads and repost them later.
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 12:30pm by EnthalpyTheBurninator
Quote:
with regards to the parry numbers, i haven't run them personally but i've seen a couple threads on the damage intake. unfortunately the chance for higher burst damage exists, but the fact remains that in general a dw dk supposedly will parry less than or equal to a warrior, not to mention the avoidance on those parries. numbers run show a 1~2% damage taken increase, with the number being set at 2-5 parries more per encounter. There were threads on mmo-champion about it which supposedly cross referenced something in either EJ or tankspot (cant remember which).
just to set a record here, i do not dw tank, or dw dk at all at the moment (dont feel i'm geared enough for it yet to try it either), and i have no plans to dw tank either.
what i'm trying to say though, is that because crushing blows are out of the game, the parry gibbing IS an issue, but its nowhere near as bad as it was in tBC. The problem in tBC was forcing the boss to haste and getting crushed (mostly through blowing shield block charges).
Also, blue posts have confirmed that not all bosses have parry haste anymore (just parry), patchwork being one of them.
All I'm saying is that we need to be a little more objective about dw tanking. i'm personally not going to try it but there's bound to be some theorycrafters out there who could present a good case for it, and its possible it could work for some people. but like i said before most DKs shouldnt try it unless they know the game mechanics very well and are willing to put the effort/gear into working it.
Edit:
Parry does not mean the boss gets a free instant attack. I don't understand the mechanics exactly but i do know that parry haste seems to be based on how long till the boss's next attack. if the boss got a free instant attack on you then it would suck, but as it stands now you just get hit a little faster on average, and in best case scenarios its a very low amount over the course of an encounter.
I'll try to find the threads and repost them later.
just to set a record here, i do not dw tank, or dw dk at all at the moment (dont feel i'm geared enough for it yet to try it either), and i have no plans to dw tank either.
what i'm trying to say though, is that because crushing blows are out of the game, the parry gibbing IS an issue, but its nowhere near as bad as it was in tBC. The problem in tBC was forcing the boss to haste and getting crushed (mostly through blowing shield block charges).
Also, blue posts have confirmed that not all bosses have parry haste anymore (just parry), patchwork being one of them.
All I'm saying is that we need to be a little more objective about dw tanking. i'm personally not going to try it but there's bound to be some theorycrafters out there who could present a good case for it, and its possible it could work for some people. but like i said before most DKs shouldnt try it unless they know the game mechanics very well and are willing to put the effort/gear into working it.
Edit:
Parry does not mean the boss gets a free instant attack. I don't understand the mechanics exactly but i do know that parry haste seems to be based on how long till the boss's next attack. if the boss got a free instant attack on you then it would suck, but as it stands now you just get hit a little faster on average, and in best case scenarios its a very low amount over the course of an encounter.
I'll try to find the threads and repost them later.
The problem isn't the average increased damage in an encounter, it is the existence of unmanageable, unpredictable burst damage. Getting hit 3 more times doesn't seem like a big deal until you remember that those 3 hits could all come in direct succesion. How much a healer HoTs doesn't matter if the tank is just gonna get bursted down. A boss is far more likely to take out a tank before a healer can react when the tank dual wields. Twice-three times as likely, depending on your weapons. It may not happen often, but it is far more likely.
I mean, a boss will still parry a 2-hander 15-16% of the time (expertise aside). The difference is that there are 3 seconds before he has another chance to parry where he can do it again with DW very quickly. And, possibly again before the 2H swing.
Plus, since they are adding tanking 2-handers to the game, there is no reason to go for the 1-handers.
From what I understand, parry gibbing works this way:
The boss has his swing time, which begins with a swing. Let's say he has a 3.0 swing timer.
He swings and hits you and then parries you quickly after that (<1 sec into the timer). He doesn't parry you again during this span because your swing speed is >3s. So, in approximately 4 seconds, you get hit 3 times (1 at the beginning, 1 for resetting, 1 for the start of the next timer). Now, Parry gibbing will almost always result in more damage, but it is far worse if he parries you just after a swing than later on. See the next:
You have a 2.0 second MH and a 1.8 second OF. Boss is still 3.0.
Boss swings. Just after that, you swing and he parries, hitting again quickly. Your OH swings also, getting parried, causing you to get hit AGAIN. 1.8 and then 2 seconds later, he parries both attacks.
You get hit 5-6 times in the same 4 second span.
Even if you get REALLY SLOW 1-handers, you double the chance of this kind of burst attack from happening (though it isn't as bad).
Plus, you need to factor in abilities that get parried.
A boss likely will parry you 14-16% a battle (trash is trash and I'm not gonna worry about it here). That results in 14-16% of your attacks resetting his timer. If you get really slow DWing weapons, it will be about twice as many parries.
This can add to a small amount of increased damage, or it can lead to a huge amount of increased damage in a very short period that isn't predictable.
But, damage WILL go up either way.
There is NO POINT to go for defensive DWing when you are going to take more damage that is not made up for by the extra avoidance.
If Blizz changes parry glibbing, DWing may become viable. Until then, don't do it.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
I am not sure from all the coments if I should keep points this deep in frost. The later talents such as Tundra Stalker and Hungering Cold are convineant for survival and AoE tanking .And as idiggory said
I have to agree with the convineance of having a panic button, as its always good to have something to fallback on. Plus, Howling Blast does double damage on the affected targets via its Frost Fever apllication on hit. On the topic of Frost Aura,there are only about 2 pallys in our guild ATM that I know raid. But, there are several places that those 4-5 points could be placed. I had several points deeper into unholy that I had in the original build that could be restored if i decide to forgo the deeper Frost points.
[EDIT]
By the way, are we still on the topic of my build? =p
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 8:59pm by Lichbourne
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 8:03pm by Lichbourne
Quote:
Hungering Cold is a nice AoE tanking Oh-Sh*t button. 10 seconds for your healer to catch up, for CC to reorganize, for CDs to come back up, etc.
I have to agree with the convineance of having a panic button, as its always good to have something to fallback on. Plus, Howling Blast does double damage on the affected targets via its Frost Fever apllication on hit. On the topic of Frost Aura,there are only about 2 pallys in our guild ATM that I know raid. But, there are several places that those 4-5 points could be placed. I had several points deeper into unholy that I had in the original build that could be restored if i decide to forgo the deeper Frost points.
[EDIT]
By the way, are we still on the topic of my build? =p
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 8:59pm by Lichbourne
Edited, Jan 3rd 2009 8:03pm by Lichbourne
Honestly, just go with one of the two Elitist Jerks builds. They may change over time, but they are the best for the moment.
That way, you can change up your talents as you learn how you play later on, while still being effective enough to get that experience from the start.
That way, you can change up your talents as you learn how you play later on, while still being effective enough to get that experience from the start.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
The EJ build would work, just wanted to know what to do with the point from frost aura( we do have plenty of pallys in guild).Should I get Rune Tap or put a point in another talent?
Edited, Jan 4th 2009 2:39pm by Lichbourne
Edited, Jan 4th 2009 2:39pm by Lichbourne
I understand DW mechanics and DW tank mechanics, thank you very much.
The numbers arent as bad as they were tBC is all i'm saying, i'm personally promoting experimentation, which could result in better findings for the class.
I'm also saying not everyone should be doing it.
Next person who posts 'dunt dw evar u will dieeeeee' needs a kick in the shins.
as for hungering cold, i dont think its worth the 1 point investment, as it is an o-s button which breaks on literally everything and burns rp.
as for rune tap, dont get it if you dont get improved, it is 'decent' but crappy in its normal form. improved with the glyph is heals a lot for a lot of people.
The numbers arent as bad as they were tBC is all i'm saying, i'm personally promoting experimentation, which could result in better findings for the class.
I'm also saying not everyone should be doing it.
Next person who posts 'dunt dw evar u will dieeeeee' needs a kick in the shins.
as for hungering cold, i dont think its worth the 1 point investment, as it is an o-s button which breaks on literally everything and burns rp.
as for rune tap, dont get it if you dont get improved, it is 'decent' but crappy in its normal form. improved with the glyph is heals a lot for a lot of people.
Quote:
The numbers arent as bad as they were tBC is all i'm saying, i'm personally promoting experimentation, which could result in better findings for the class.
That is highly dependent on which "numbers" you are talking about. The actual [edit] frequency of [/edit] gibbs are JUST as bad as they were. The only change is in crushing blows, which isn't limited to parry gibbing.
The way you phrased your post made it sound like DWing wasn't THAT bad, with all the 1% increased damage crap. You completely side stepped the problem in order to make DWing sound better.
I'm all for experimenting. But the fact remains that until Blizz changes the mechanics, 1-handers are going to need PHENOMENAL stats in order to make it worthwhile.
And don't get defensive about someone telling you how a mechanic works when you SAY you don't understand.
Edited, Jan 4th 2009 8:47pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory, just to clarify for you, a boss parrying an attack does not give him an instant attack.
Getting parried twice in a row immediately after the boss's attack will make the next attack happen 64% faster, not give 2 extra attacks.
WoWWiki wrote:
When you parry an attack, the remaining time on your current swing is reduced by 40% of your weapon speed, unless this would result in a reduction to less than 20% of your swing time remaining.
Getting parried twice in a row immediately after the boss's attack will make the next attack happen 64% faster, not give 2 extra attacks.
I recently read an article that said something completely different than that...
Let's see if I can find it.
...
...
...
Okay, I cannot find the article, but I founds several more sources claiming that the 40% haste is true.
But, even still, I just cannot validate DW tanking in my mind as it stands now. I know Blizz said they were looking at it, so we can expect some kind of change in the future.
If they put in some tanking 1-handers with high expertise values and lowered the parry rate of bosses, I could possibly start to support it. As it is, DWing just cannot bring up the threat while maintaining a tank build atm.
If that changes in the future--I'm happy. That means better itemization and more builds to choose from.
Let's see if I can find it.
...
...
...
Okay, I cannot find the article, but I founds several more sources claiming that the 40% haste is true.
But, even still, I just cannot validate DW tanking in my mind as it stands now. I know Blizz said they were looking at it, so we can expect some kind of change in the future.
If they put in some tanking 1-handers with high expertise values and lowered the parry rate of bosses, I could possibly start to support it. As it is, DWing just cannot bring up the threat while maintaining a tank build atm.
If that changes in the future--I'm happy. That means better itemization and more builds to choose from.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
I have monkeyed around with the EJ build,in response to the more recent comments. I got rid of Frost Aura, choosing to put a point in Deathchill so I can keep Tundra Stalker. This leaves a single spare points that I am debating on where to put. Hungering Cold is a nice panic button, but it would possibly break from a careless DoT or cast. The other option is Rune Tap, Enthalpy the Burninator said
To get Improved, it would require downgrading the Unholy side of the build to just 3 points in Anticipation, with an odd point in 2-H Weapon Specialization. Just glyphed,this would still give a nice 3000 HP to everyone in my party(If I somehow get 30k hp). Both options are valid,but I would value others opinions. =)
Quote:
As for rune tap, dont get it if you dont get improved, it is 'decent' but crappy in its normal form. improved with the glyph is heals a lot for a lot of people.
To get Improved, it would require downgrading the Unholy side of the build to just 3 points in Anticipation, with an odd point in 2-H Weapon Specialization. Just glyphed,this would still give a nice 3000 HP to everyone in my party(If I somehow get 30k hp). Both options are valid,but I would value others opinions. =)
Quote:
To get Improved, it would require downgrading the Unholy side of the build to just 3 points in Anticipation, with an odd point in 2-H Weapon Specialization. Just glyphed,this would still give a nice 3000 HP to everyone in my party(If I somehow get 30k hp). Both options are valid,but I would value others opinions. =)
Keep Anticipation. 2% Dodge for 2 points is priceless.
I would recommend one of these three plans:
1. Get rid of Deathchill and put 2 points in Frost Aura.
2. Keep Deathchill and put 1 point in Frost Aura.
3. Post the build so that we can actually see what you do or do not have.
[EDIT]
About why I don't think Rune Tap is that much of a solid investment for a non-blood tank:
1. If your party is taking so much damage that your healers cannot keep up with it, thus leading you to be using rune tap every 30-60 seconds, you have some serious strategy problems. You need to figure this out instead of wasting blood runes for this ability.
2. Using this glyph means giving up a node on your grid, and this is a very bad idea. You would have to sacrifice your glyph of obliterate, IF and Dark Command. You could possibly use others, but these seem to be the three "standard" ones for Frost tanking.
3. The glyph isn't even THAT good. For the cost of a blood rune, you heal yourself for 10% of your health and your party for 10% of THEIR health. You having 30K health doesn't increase that heal. And again about number 1--the MT shouldn't need to be responsible for healing the group for anything other than hate.
4. According to this, Rune Tap generates no threat. You use a Blood Rune for no threat to do something your healers should be able to cover. [note: An interesting thing you will notice in that chart is that most DK threat is created via damage, with certain abilities like Scourge Strike having an additional boost.]
Overall, it just seems far less worthwhile than even a potentially situational ability like Frost Aura. Better to have free, raid-wide mitigation than an ability that is so-so without wasting talents or glyphs that also requires a rune.
Edited, Jan 6th 2009 2:48am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Overall, it just seems far less worthwhile than even a potentially situational ability like Frost Aura. Better to have free, raid-wide mitigation than an ability that is so-so without wasting talents or glyphs that also requires a rune.
Its to bad that frost aura doesnt stack with any other resistance boosting thing in the game (besides acclimation i believe), and something like mark of the wild which almost every raid group has gives nearly the same (76) resist as frost aura, meaning those 2 points can be spent in other places.
:X
IBF glyph = 20 RP / minute.
IT glyph = 10 RP per use, at least 3 uses per minutes = 30 RP/minute
if you know how to pool your RP (which i guess takes m4d rogue sk1llz) then you make a lot of extra RP with this and dont need to worry about capping. plus if you have a BoSanc you will almost ALWAYS have 20 RP available. (BoSanc is hax for dk)
as for glyph of dark command, you really are going to waste a glyph slot on something when you have 2 taunts up almost all the time for during a boss fight? And why not any unbreakable armor, 5% more parry is big, and when it gets changed to an armor buff thats still big.
seriously do you understand the mechanics you're talking about?
^_^
Quote:
I would recommend one of these three plans:
1. Get rid of Deathchill and put 2 points in Frost Aura.
2. Keep Deathchill and put 1 point in Frost Aura.
3. Post the build so that we can actually see what you do or do not have.
1. Get rid of Deathchill and put 2 points in Frost Aura.
2. Keep Deathchill and put 1 point in Frost Aura.
3. Post the build so that we can actually see what you do or do not have.
This is what the build looks like with the changes I mentioned earlier
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEzocZGxxthcdohoVosx0h The second option would seem to work fine if this isn't good. BTW, you have to copy the URL above into your adress bar to see the build
EDIT: This is another build I made: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGxxthcdohoVost0g
Edited, Jan 6th 2009 3:55pm by Lichbourne
Edited, Jan 6th 2009 4:01pm by Lichbourne
Edited, Jan 6th 2009 5:54pm by Lichbourne
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All you need to know about DK's and what to do....soak it up all, I'm not sure how many of you are aware of Elitistjerks.com, but very helpfull for all class specifics.
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t36638-death_knight_pve_dps/#Stats_choices
http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t36638-death_knight_pve_dps/#Stats_choices
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