I have read mixed things about PW:S interfering with rage generation. I read that it was changed to not interfere, yet some Warriors still tell me that it does.
What about Pallys? I know they regen mana based on heals, so they want to be hit. It seems obvious that PW:S isn't going to be appreciated by Pallys either.
What is the definitive word on this? Shielding then renewing a tank is great at times, and it is starting to make me prefer good DK tanks because their runic power grows when they attack.
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While paladins do generate mana from being hit it is in a different way from warriors. Warriors receive rage directly from a hit based on a the rage conversion ratio of 5d / 2c or 5x damage dealt divided twice by the rage coefficient (somewhere around 315 at 80). Paladins, however, generate mana by being healed which is an effect of being hit (the cause). So while warriors and druids may still have an issue with PW:S interfering with rage generation paladins most certainly should not.
It seems like Paladins have the same concern, because if they are not damaged then they are not healed, and receive no mana, right? It is just one step removed.
Either way, I've found it very fun to heal for DK tanks. They have incredible threat generation, and they don't care what tools I'm using to keep them up.
Either way, I've found it very fun to heal for DK tanks. They have incredible threat generation, and they don't care what tools I'm using to keep them up.
I'm not too sure how badly it currently interferes. The thing is however, as a disc priest your shield is so immensely powerful their loss of rage/mana gained doesn't add up to your efficiency so you'll be casting the shield now and then anyway.
The only time you absolutely don't shield is at the beginning of a pull. Other than that it's not too hard to watch the rage bar right underneath the health bar. With bosses or pulling 2+ mobs in heroics there really shouldn't be any rage shortage though.
Oh, and if somebody throws a fit over you shielding, just remind them of their ability to remove buffs by right-clicking on them...
Oh, and if somebody throws a fit over you shielding, just remind them of their ability to remove buffs by right-clicking on them...
(bearing in mind I can't find anything beyond conversational hearsay, and am curious to see some hard numbers on how suddenly PW:S isn't a bad as it used to be.)
As far as I understand the situation, the nature of gaining Threat was changed to be easier than it was previously. PW:S itself wasn't changed, rather the downside of using it was lessened insomuch that Rage devalued (because more Threat can be gained with less Rage). I've had people tell me it was because tanking classes received a slew of upgraded and refurbished abilities that made this possible, others are telling me there were changes to threat mechanics more fundamental. In any case, I'm under the impression PW:S'ing someone still keeps them from generating Rage - it's just that other external factors make that not so bad anymore.
I agree with Kanngarnix on the notion of watching your tank's rage/mana and changing your approach to suit the situation (that's a great philosophy to adopt in general). If your Warrior has low rage everytime you check and the mobs are bouncing everywhere, scale back on your PW:S. If he seems to be dandy with rage, but your mana pool might be better'd by using PW:S to maximize the 5 second rule, by all means PW:S.
If your still worried about over-shielding, I've found shooting the tank a whisper regarding it to be pretty effective.
A simple "If my shielding is interfering with your rage, just let me know" usually does the trick. I usually wait until after a good 6+ pulls, so the tank has some frame of reference to start from to then direct "less" or "no, your fine".
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 11:20pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 11:20pm by Zemzelette
As far as I understand the situation, the nature of gaining Threat was changed to be easier than it was previously. PW:S itself wasn't changed, rather the downside of using it was lessened insomuch that Rage devalued (because more Threat can be gained with less Rage). I've had people tell me it was because tanking classes received a slew of upgraded and refurbished abilities that made this possible, others are telling me there were changes to threat mechanics more fundamental. In any case, I'm under the impression PW:S'ing someone still keeps them from generating Rage - it's just that other external factors make that not so bad anymore.
I agree with Kanngarnix on the notion of watching your tank's rage/mana and changing your approach to suit the situation (that's a great philosophy to adopt in general). If your Warrior has low rage everytime you check and the mobs are bouncing everywhere, scale back on your PW:S. If he seems to be dandy with rage, but your mana pool might be better'd by using PW:S to maximize the 5 second rule, by all means PW:S.
If your still worried about over-shielding, I've found shooting the tank a whisper regarding it to be pretty effective.
A simple "If my shielding is interfering with your rage, just let me know" usually does the trick. I usually wait until after a good 6+ pulls, so the tank has some frame of reference to start from to then direct "less" or "no, your fine".
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 11:20pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 11:20pm by Zemzelette
15 posts
As a warrior tank i can say that a tank would rather be alive, then rage starved. but with that being said dont just be spamming the shield and expect everything to be ok. now as ive stated before i dont know about healing rotations or anything but as a tank rage is very important to me so i can effectively tank. the first thing is never, NEVER, cast it on a tank when a pull starts. that is when we need to gain the most threat cause the dps decide to go all out at the beginning of a fight. after that i like healers who use it as a mini "oh s@it" button and using it when my health drops below a certain percent. what that percent is depends on the fight etc, but id say the best use of it is to use it in those situations and those alone. cause like i said in the beginning a tank would almost always rather be alive and rage starved then dead and...dead.
Just my 2 cents tho
Just my 2 cents tho
Quote:
(bearing in mind I can't find anything beyond conversational hearsay, and am curious to see some hard numbers on how suddenly PW:S isn't a bad as it used to be.)
A couple of things, actually. The main reason for Shield becoming so powerful is that disc used to be a PvP only tree pre-WOTLK. It's now raid-viable and all the PW:S upgrades in the tree come with it. Where old-fashioned holy priests didn't have any upgrades at all to their shield, disc priest now have Improved Power Word: Shield and Reflective shield. But aside from that, disc priests now have Renewed Hope triggering Divine Aegis and Borrowed Time working in conjunction with both Rapture and Penance. So aside from the fact that PW:S is an instant heal that can't overheal, it gives us an increases crit chance on the target, damages the enemy in question, is extremely cheap and gives us a fast-cast Penance+additional heal on the target. The minor chance that a tank loses aggro and actually wipes the group/raid simply doesn't add up to the sweet spell PW:S now is.
Xert wrote:
It seems like Paladins have the same concern, because if they are not damaged then they are not healed, and receive no mana, right? It is just one step removed.
Paladins with Blessing of Sanctuary also gain mana from Dodges, Parries, and Blocks, which can happen while shielded.
But Shield is an emergency thing, like my Holy Pally's Holy Shock. I cast that only when I think I need it to get my next heal out in time.
Quote:
But Shield is an emergency thing
No, not anymore. That's the thing. While you won't be using it as your main cast as a disc priest, you'll use it fár more often than a holy priest. Not doing so would be a waste, in fact. And I could argue that Holy Shock isn't an emergency heal either, but I haven't played healadin enough to make that point stand in a discussion.
Quote:
But Shield is an emergency thing
Yes and no.
The time & mana cost of PW:S + Renew doesn't compare with casting a single Flash Heal, so I'd only be doing it when I thought I needed to buffer the tank against damage right now. However the shield + hot combo gives an effective health return greater than that of a flash heal (2200 shield + 1400 renew vs. 2200 flash heal).
I'm thinking that it could be argued both ways from the Priest's perspective, especially for the Disc. priests (I'm holy), but I think what is more important is enabling the entire party to do their best. If shielding the tank is going to cause rage/mana problems, even potentially, I think follows that it is best to keep the shield + hot combo in the wings and only bring it out when really needed.
I have a lot of other tools at my disposal anyway.
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say; if you're a holy priest, then don't worry - nothing has changed for you and you won't use PW:S any more or less. I just want to keep people of the more and more common bandwagon point of view that PW:S should be used only as an emergency ability, even while disc.
Thanks Mozared,
That's a good explanation for why it's become so good from the Disc Priest's perspective.
But I'm kind of curious on why exactly tanks seem more receptive to the idea. Like the OP, the information I can get my mitts on is vague and sometimes contradictory. I wish I knew why exactly PW:S is better from the Tank Perspective so I can make a more informed decision on how to use it.
Well, Xert, while I agree FH is pretty damn nice.
The real joy of PW:S (and Renew) over FH is that it's preventative and not reactive. You can take advantage of that to get outside the 5 second rule faster at the end of a cluster of trash mobs. (Did I use that slang right?)
Edited, Dec 24th 2008 1:59pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Dec 24th 2008 2:02pm by Zemzelette
That's a good explanation for why it's become so good from the Disc Priest's perspective.
But I'm kind of curious on why exactly tanks seem more receptive to the idea. Like the OP, the information I can get my mitts on is vague and sometimes contradictory. I wish I knew why exactly PW:S is better from the Tank Perspective so I can make a more informed decision on how to use it.
Well, Xert, while I agree FH is pretty damn nice.
The real joy of PW:S (and Renew) over FH is that it's preventative and not reactive. You can take advantage of that to get outside the 5 second rule faster at the end of a cluster of trash mobs. (Did I use that slang right?)
Edited, Dec 24th 2008 1:59pm by Zemzelette
Edited, Dec 24th 2008 2:02pm by Zemzelette
I am a bear tank. I use rage. Discipline priests are right now one of my two favorite healers to get. I like the new shields and don't mind as long as it isn't at the start of a pull. Unless I have a fullish bar from chain pulling of course.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
But I'm kind of curious on why exactly tanks seem more receptive to the idea.
There is probably one simple reason for this; threat gain got buffed. Since WOTLK the threat mechanics have changed in such a way that it is now a lot easier for tanks to hold threat, hence less need for obscene amounts of rage, hence less bother from PW:S. I scrolled over the Elitistjerks forums for you, and have to say I couldn't find anything at all about PW:S being changed (aside from the Discipline talents I named up there); I'm going to assume that while PW:S bothers rage gain as much as it has always done, increased threat gain and the viable Discipline spec are the cause of receptiveness of PW:S for tanks.
I think a few people have touched on what I think the acceptable and preferred use of PW:S would be- the pre-emptive heal. You do not lead off with it. It should not be an 'oh $%@#' button (but can be used as such). It is the cherry on the sundae, so to speak. Once the battle is started, threat is established and everyone is doing their thing, there may come a point where you may want to top the tank off, throw a shield up and do group maintenance. CC some undead mob, heal others, grab a hotdog... anything that time allows. I tend to use it as an "I'll be right back" kind of thing rather than the mana/health benefits it provides due to spec or glyph. If it gets me out of the FSR, even better. I may not be utilizing PW:S to its full potential, but then again, by the time I shield the tank, they've already received a shot of penance, their rage bar is at least 70% full, and I get a bit more of what I would consider my best ally- time.
I check both the tanks power bar and the threat meter as I consider shielding.
I check both the tanks power bar and the threat meter as I consider shielding.
15 posts
as a warrior i am still stuck in the mind frame of PW:S =not good for me. i can understand that that way of thinking is old, so i ask you to enlighten me on why disp shields are so much better then the shields were in bc. im saying i disagree with that, im just saying that i am trying to keep my knowledge about this as up to date as possibe. :) thanks
I'll take a stab at this Idpsprot. =)
The basic premise of groups is that when everyone does their job well, the instances are a clean, fast run. This makes everyone happy. The most ideal situation is that the tank maintains threat on all the mobs, the dps provide maximum damage without pulling aggro and the healer keeps the tank healthy. If this is the case, there is no need to shield the tank. If the healer is going OOM in the ideal fights, he has issues other than choice of spells to cast.
There is no need to shield, but certain discipline talents make the use of shields quite inviting. Mozared listed these in an earlier post that I won't duplicate. By using shields in an ideal run, I can increase dps on all mobs targetting the tank by reflective shield. This damage causes no threat. If the tank is maintaining aggro with ease, then I can further improve the speed at which mobs are dispatched. My take on this is making a good situation even better. If the tank does not care for shielding and lets me know, I will stop any further shielding in this situation.
If the ideal run is not occurring, then priorities begin to shift. Let's say the tank is not maintaining aggro. I, as the healer, am going to notice this. I'll probably know it before the group member who is pulling aggro does. I won't know why because my attention will be devoted to maintaining the health of the group. Unless the group figures out why this is happenning and makes corrections, I must adjust my playstyle to utilize my strengths. Using PW:Shield is a strength for discipline priests.
The generalization "PW:S=not good for me (warrior)" is valid. I certainly do not want a rage-starved tank (or mana-starved). I want all members of the group able to perform their function well. I don't know the exact mechanics of how individual tanks perform their role, but I do trust them to keep the baddies off me in the event I get knocked around. I only ask that they trust their healers to perform their role efficiently as well.
BTW, most of what I have learned about healing has come from tanks who saw me struggle and offered constructive criticisms for me. Thanks, tanks.
The basic premise of groups is that when everyone does their job well, the instances are a clean, fast run. This makes everyone happy. The most ideal situation is that the tank maintains threat on all the mobs, the dps provide maximum damage without pulling aggro and the healer keeps the tank healthy. If this is the case, there is no need to shield the tank. If the healer is going OOM in the ideal fights, he has issues other than choice of spells to cast.
There is no need to shield, but certain discipline talents make the use of shields quite inviting. Mozared listed these in an earlier post that I won't duplicate. By using shields in an ideal run, I can increase dps on all mobs targetting the tank by reflective shield. This damage causes no threat. If the tank is maintaining aggro with ease, then I can further improve the speed at which mobs are dispatched. My take on this is making a good situation even better. If the tank does not care for shielding and lets me know, I will stop any further shielding in this situation.
If the ideal run is not occurring, then priorities begin to shift. Let's say the tank is not maintaining aggro. I, as the healer, am going to notice this. I'll probably know it before the group member who is pulling aggro does. I won't know why because my attention will be devoted to maintaining the health of the group. Unless the group figures out why this is happenning and makes corrections, I must adjust my playstyle to utilize my strengths. Using PW:Shield is a strength for discipline priests.
The generalization "PW:S=not good for me (warrior)" is valid. I certainly do not want a rage-starved tank (or mana-starved). I want all members of the group able to perform their function well. I don't know the exact mechanics of how individual tanks perform their role, but I do trust them to keep the baddies off me in the event I get knocked around. I only ask that they trust their healers to perform their role efficiently as well.
BTW, most of what I have learned about healing has come from tanks who saw me struggle and offered constructive criticisms for me. Thanks, tanks.
Although you specifically titled your thread about warriors I though I'd come in here and add my thoughts on Paladins too.
It used to be the case prior to Wrath that mana was sometimes a problem for Paladin tanks, even with a little intellect stacked back then my pull spell would eat up a huge amount of my mana pool before we've even got the pull underway properly. If you were overgeared for the instance, or once you have raiding gear and you were running normal instances say, then you'd have to stop to drink after virtually every pull as you were just not taking enough damage to be healed enough to gain mana back effectively. This also applied to heroics for those tanks in T6 gear, though to a lesser extent.
What used to happen and yes I myself have done this, is if it was relatively safe to do so, I'd sit down mid pull very quickly eat a crit so I took more damage and thus got healed. Doing this too often made healers quite unhappy and wasn't really the best or most efficient use of the healers time.
The thing is though in "on-level" content where we were taking plenty of damage we'd finish with a full mana bar as we took a lot of healing over the length of each pull. This, from my perspective, made running friends through low level dungeons more of a chore than heroics.
Fast forward to now:
Blizzard in their infinite wisdom decided that Paladin tanks should not have to worry about mana while tanking. They decided to remove all Intellect from our gear to the extent that now I have nothing other than a white intellect value. They gave us new tools to recover mana:
Blessing of Sanctuary, gives us 2% of our mana pool back each time we dodge, parry or block an attack, which with a decent geared tank is pretty much 100% of the time. With little need of CC at the moment and with several mobs beating on us that tool alone gives us a huge amount of mana back each time they take a swing at us.
We still have Seal of Wisdom and now an independent Judgement for it too regardless of our chosen Seal.
Divine Plea, new spell not just useful for the Paladin healers, 25% of our maximum mana back over time.
Spiritual Attunement and its associated Glyph.
In short they pretty much removed mana from the table. It is still a small issue if I'm off tanking in raid, but if I run low I'll pop Divine Plea, or judge Wisdom but I rarely run out. In 5 mans as threat is no longer an issue - we can virtually auto-attack and keep aggro - alot of tanks are judging Wisdom anyway on standard pulls, with the changes to threat and judging Light in the upcoming patch you can expect more to be using Wisdom too.
The fact is now I'm in a lot of Naxx gear (10/25) I still use up a fair amount of mana in smaller heroic pulls/normal dungeons, however in those cases Shielding me shouldn't be necessary. In the larger pulls, boss fights or against casters I'm still going to be taking enough damage that even with a shield up alot of the time I'm more than capable of recovering mana from the many tools we were given for that very purpose.
It used to be the case prior to Wrath that mana was sometimes a problem for Paladin tanks, even with a little intellect stacked back then my pull spell would eat up a huge amount of my mana pool before we've even got the pull underway properly. If you were overgeared for the instance, or once you have raiding gear and you were running normal instances say, then you'd have to stop to drink after virtually every pull as you were just not taking enough damage to be healed enough to gain mana back effectively. This also applied to heroics for those tanks in T6 gear, though to a lesser extent.
What used to happen and yes I myself have done this, is if it was relatively safe to do so, I'd sit down mid pull very quickly eat a crit so I took more damage and thus got healed. Doing this too often made healers quite unhappy and wasn't really the best or most efficient use of the healers time.
The thing is though in "on-level" content where we were taking plenty of damage we'd finish with a full mana bar as we took a lot of healing over the length of each pull. This, from my perspective, made running friends through low level dungeons more of a chore than heroics.
Fast forward to now:
Blizzard in their infinite wisdom decided that Paladin tanks should not have to worry about mana while tanking. They decided to remove all Intellect from our gear to the extent that now I have nothing other than a white intellect value. They gave us new tools to recover mana:
Blessing of Sanctuary, gives us 2% of our mana pool back each time we dodge, parry or block an attack, which with a decent geared tank is pretty much 100% of the time. With little need of CC at the moment and with several mobs beating on us that tool alone gives us a huge amount of mana back each time they take a swing at us.
We still have Seal of Wisdom and now an independent Judgement for it too regardless of our chosen Seal.
Divine Plea, new spell not just useful for the Paladin healers, 25% of our maximum mana back over time.
Spiritual Attunement and its associated Glyph.
In short they pretty much removed mana from the table. It is still a small issue if I'm off tanking in raid, but if I run low I'll pop Divine Plea, or judge Wisdom but I rarely run out. In 5 mans as threat is no longer an issue - we can virtually auto-attack and keep aggro - alot of tanks are judging Wisdom anyway on standard pulls, with the changes to threat and judging Light in the upcoming patch you can expect more to be using Wisdom too.
The fact is now I'm in a lot of Naxx gear (10/25) I still use up a fair amount of mana in smaller heroic pulls/normal dungeons, however in those cases Shielding me shouldn't be necessary. In the larger pulls, boss fights or against casters I'm still going to be taking enough damage that even with a shield up alot of the time I'm more than capable of recovering mana from the many tools we were given for that very purpose.
With the Glyph PW:S will heal for a percentage of the damage it adsorbs.
PW:S,Renew then Flash Heal will near about raise the dead.
So, if I am reading this properly:
PW:S + DK tank = no issues
PW:S + Pally tank = no issues
PW:S + Warrior = issues, although they have their own avoidance and mitigation abilities
PW:S + Druid tank = issues, screwed
Seems a little unfair, as druid tanks already had very little damage mitigation abilities.
PW:S + DK tank = no issues
PW:S + Pally tank = no issues
PW:S + Warrior = issues, although they have their own avoidance and mitigation abilities
PW:S + Druid tank = issues, screwed
Seems a little unfair, as druid tanks already had very little damage mitigation abilities.
Eh, based on Horsemouths comments I would say Druids are fine with it as long as it's not right at the beginning of a pull. Same goes for Pallies and Wars though really. The only tank I keep perma shielded is a DK.
Trylofer wrote:
I check both the tanks power bar and the threat meter as I consider shielding.
This. If a good tank has to watch a healer's mana bar before pulling you should be watching your tank's bars if you want to be a good healer.
Kanngarnix wrote:
Oh, and if somebody throws a fit over you shielding, just remind them of their ability to remove buffs by right-clicking on them...
Yes, I can right-click a buff off. That also hampers my other abilities and distracts me from my job.
I don't have a problem with shields as long as I'm not rage starved. If I start to have a problem with it I'll tell the healer to knock it off or tone it down. You sure as hell better listen or you'll be learning the hard way.
On the other hand, you can macro /cancelaura Power Word: Shield into a specific ability. BoP can be pretty bugging, but my healadin arena partner sometimes *has* to use it on my rogue to prevent me from dying. /cancelaura is my friend.
I'm a Disc priest who's healing a Prot warrior through WotLK content.
He never has rage issues. I use PW:S almost every cooldown on boss fights and tough pulls, and he still never has rage issues.
From what I understand, it's not that PW:S was changed to not interfere with rage generation, it's that rage generation from damage is through the roof these days.
He never has rage issues. I use PW:S almost every cooldown on boss fights and tough pulls, and he still never has rage issues.
From what I understand, it's not that PW:S was changed to not interfere with rage generation, it's that rage generation from damage is through the roof these days.
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