So I'm standing just inside the instance at heroic UK after being the last person summoned in and I start getting tells from my healer troll priest (Here's his armory) ~ now, it's fairly obvious to me he's ran his fair share of heroics. I've ran 9-10 but haven't really tried to run more, just when it's convenient to me.
He asks me if I'm really planning on tanking in the gear I'm in (gear link in my sig subtracting my argent dawn commision for that 70 armor trinket). I told him it's some of the best stuff I can't get for heroics pre-raid and I haven't had real problems in any heroics I've done, including running heroic UK a couple times already.
After the first few rooms we got to the dragons room and we started clearing it, when I noticed I was always getting close to death on the pulls. Now, I'll be honest, my style of tanking has never really included using Barkskin on the trash pulls, unless i'm pulling more than 3 but I was having to constantly pop that and the 30% health talent. I stopped after the second dragon to let him regen mana and he was openly complaining in party chat of how much damage I was taking during the run. Which has never happened to me before.
I may not be the best geared bear in the world, but I figure 28k self buffed hp, 22k armor and 35.5% dodge is really respectable. Getting hit for 2k-3.5k in heroics is normal to me.
During the next pull I die, and the Deathknight ends up tanking the dragon and survives (barely) at which time the priest proclaims that he should tank because I'm not geared for it. Then it got into a heated conversation about druid tanking gear and what stats are important. I told him that defense was nigh worthless to bears and he flipped, we ended up wiping and both myself and him left the group.
I'm not upset about it, and I'm not even worried, I'm just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience or has been asked about their gear before?
Edited, Dec 22nd 2008 10:03pm by Paracleets
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Healer's perception of our tanking gearFollow
Quote:
Then it got into a heated conversation about druid tanking gear and what stats are important. I told him that defense was nigh worthless to bears and he flipped, we ended up wiping and both myself and him left the group.
This right here tells me he r dum.
Next time someone questions you about your gear, simply point out your HP compared to your average tank at that level (bonus if there's another "tank" class with you), link SotF, and tell them to shut up and heal rather than try to school someone else in their own class' mechanics >_>
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 12:11am by Norellicus
You are more than well enough geared for H UK.
How was your DPS doing?
The healer is also geared and has a workable spec. He should of had no issue healing you in H UK with decent DPS.
I am confused by your situation to be honest. You are geared for that run and so is the healer.
F*ing weird.
Me thinks you had sharty DPS. Otherwise I am befuddled.
edit:
HP and SotF can only do so much. Clets armor coupled with his HP and dodge are what make him good enough for H UK. Others tanks have less HP/armor but way more block/parry. H UK is easy with DPS around 1k. Me thinks his DPS was sh*t.
A balance of avoidance, mitigation and EH make a tank. I could have huge health and armor but sh&t dodge and threat and be a sh*tty tank. Tanks of different classes have different benchmarks.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 6:15am by Horsemouth
How was your DPS doing?
The healer is also geared and has a workable spec. He should of had no issue healing you in H UK with decent DPS.
I am confused by your situation to be honest. You are geared for that run and so is the healer.
F*ing weird.
Me thinks you had sharty DPS. Otherwise I am befuddled.
edit:
HP and SotF can only do so much. Clets armor coupled with his HP and dodge are what make him good enough for H UK. Others tanks have less HP/armor but way more block/parry. H UK is easy with DPS around 1k. Me thinks his DPS was sh*t.
A balance of avoidance, mitigation and EH make a tank. I could have huge health and armor but sh&t dodge and threat and be a sh*tty tank. Tanks of different classes have different benchmarks.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 6:15am by Horsemouth
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
I've had this same issue (misconceptions, not wipes, hehe). A lot of people don't understand druid tanking because it is very different from plate-wearer tanking. Defense is not a good stat for us because 3/4 of its use is, well, useless. Your healer just sounds like he was lousy, IMO. It may just be my perception, but I've always had trouble with priest healers compared to others. Not enough to say "No priests!" but... unless I know the encounter is non-pally specific, I love running with paladins or druids. Haven't had a resto shaman healer yet, but I think they'd be awesome too. But for some reason priests just seem to let my hp drop low and don't heal me back up after fights to full. I feel awkward running around with 24k hp/33k.
It could come down to DPS though. If battles were going too long, your healer COULD go OOM. It seems very unlikely on those pulls, however. The dragons hit hard (I forget how hard, but 4k melee + maybe 5k breath? seems about right), but that should be no problem for a priest; it's a renew + a medium heal. Or a single greater heal. Just face them away from the group and CC the spear-thrower and it's not a problem. Heck, you can root the spear thrower and just keep him away from the group and you're fine.
It sounds like a bad prejudice, but you should be ok.
It could come down to DPS though. If battles were going too long, your healer COULD go OOM. It seems very unlikely on those pulls, however. The dragons hit hard (I forget how hard, but 4k melee + maybe 5k breath? seems about right), but that should be no problem for a priest; it's a renew + a medium heal. Or a single greater heal. Just face them away from the group and CC the spear-thrower and it's not a problem. Heck, you can root the spear thrower and just keep him away from the group and you're fine.
It sounds like a bad prejudice, but you should be ok.
Your gear looks good and from a brief look at the priest I would say his is fine as well.
Were you holding hate? Was anyone else taking damage other than minor AoE? If the DPS isn't focused on one target it stretches the healer. If you were not holding hate it's difficult on the healer.
Was the DPS good? Were the mobs dying fast? 1000 DPS is slow at 80, 1300 is ok and 1500+ should be done if they pay attention; 2000+ is great in a 5 man. As a cat I can hit 2000 DPS but I tend to be around 1600 as I make mistakes (I play 3 specs so I am nowhere near perfect at any).
If the mobs are dying slow due to a party of 1000 DPS then the healer will run into issues fairly quickly. With a party of decent (~1500 DPS) as a resto druid I can keep HoT's going and never have to rest in an instance (YES I mean never. Heroic Halls of Lightning w/o resting once)
I think the issue of low DPS is more difficult for people to see. The healer runs out of MP, then the tank dies and then the DPS is knocked off quickly and you wipe. What happened? The healer ran out of MP and needs to learn to play or gear up. It doesn't immediately point to the DPS being slow unless you're in a fight with an enrage timer but afaik only bosses have enrage timers and most do not.
On a final note gear shows that someone can be ready for a heroic. Performance is another thing altogether. Assuming you know what you're doing the problem shouldn't be you. Assuming the healer knows what they are doing the problem isn't them. Assuming the DPS knows what they are doing the problem isn't them. One of these assumptions is wrong, possibly all. Hopefully you can answer some of the above questions and figure out which.
Were you holding hate? Was anyone else taking damage other than minor AoE? If the DPS isn't focused on one target it stretches the healer. If you were not holding hate it's difficult on the healer.
Was the DPS good? Were the mobs dying fast? 1000 DPS is slow at 80, 1300 is ok and 1500+ should be done if they pay attention; 2000+ is great in a 5 man. As a cat I can hit 2000 DPS but I tend to be around 1600 as I make mistakes (I play 3 specs so I am nowhere near perfect at any).
If the mobs are dying slow due to a party of 1000 DPS then the healer will run into issues fairly quickly. With a party of decent (~1500 DPS) as a resto druid I can keep HoT's going and never have to rest in an instance (YES I mean never. Heroic Halls of Lightning w/o resting once)
I think the issue of low DPS is more difficult for people to see. The healer runs out of MP, then the tank dies and then the DPS is knocked off quickly and you wipe. What happened? The healer ran out of MP and needs to learn to play or gear up. It doesn't immediately point to the DPS being slow unless you're in a fight with an enrage timer but afaik only bosses have enrage timers and most do not.
On a final note gear shows that someone can be ready for a heroic. Performance is another thing altogether. Assuming you know what you're doing the problem shouldn't be you. Assuming the healer knows what they are doing the problem isn't them. Assuming the DPS knows what they are doing the problem isn't them. One of these assumptions is wrong, possibly all. Hopefully you can answer some of the above questions and figure out which.
Just to clarify a few things on the questions you asked.
Yes I was always holding hate, and I always face them towards walls so nobody gets hit with aoe's and the dps don't complain about not being able to get behind. The Dps seemed somewhat lacking compared to me, but seemed competant. I average 1400-1500 DPS while they were averaging 1k-1.2k.
The healer wasn't having mana issues that I could tell, both times I died he had over 6k mana left (30% ish).
Now that I think about it, it seems more and more like he was the problem by having poor managing skills with his time/casting and spells. Maybe groups with higher dps carried him along because healers are so hard to find anyway. Who knows.
On a side note - Loremaster is difficult but I'm almost done, then I can switch to resto
Yes I was always holding hate, and I always face them towards walls so nobody gets hit with aoe's and the dps don't complain about not being able to get behind. The Dps seemed somewhat lacking compared to me, but seemed competant. I average 1400-1500 DPS while they were averaging 1k-1.2k.
The healer wasn't having mana issues that I could tell, both times I died he had over 6k mana left (30% ish).
Now that I think about it, it seems more and more like he was the problem by having poor managing skills with his time/casting and spells. Maybe groups with higher dps carried him along because healers are so hard to find anyway. Who knows.
On a side note - Loremaster is difficult but I'm almost done, then I can switch to resto
1-1.2k from the dps is horrible. my fresh 80 paladin friend was pulling that in heroic HoL on sunday. i tend to push about 2k as an above-average geared TG fury warrior in a 5-man heroic.
find better dps for your heroics if you can. heroics are when having good dps makes a significant difference compared to not-so-good dps.
find better dps for your heroics if you can. heroics are when having good dps makes a significant difference compared to not-so-good dps.
barkskin is on a 1 min CD use it every pull you can.. and other then your trinkets I would def take you to tank any heroic
I would say it points towards the healer then if he's sitting at 6k mp when you died. Though that means he blew through 10k mp before you died so I would say DPS is at fault as well. By the time he's down that far in MP (assuming he started near full) you should already have one mob dead and another halfway so the most difficult part of the pull is already done and the healing load should be easier.
If you were dying fairly quickly then I would think it would be more of a tank gear / healer gear / strategy fault but your strategy is good (facing away, keeping hate), your gear looks good as does the healer. Without seeing the fight I've got to point at them. Maybe they had an off night?
If you were dying fairly quickly then I would think it would be more of a tank gear / healer gear / strategy fault but your strategy is good (facing away, keeping hate), your gear looks good as does the healer. Without seeing the fight I've got to point at them. Maybe they had an off night?
priest healing style lacks long-term stabilizing effects. renew and shield being the only kind they have, most priests simply rely on spamming flash or greater heal. greater healing priests, now that downranking is useless, need to wait for you to get low on health or they waste a lot on overhealing. flash heal isn't efficient like a paladin's, though maybe he should have used it a little more.
it sounds like the priest's heals were just poorly timed and he wasn't able to keep up with bursts in your damage flow.
it's easiest for priests to deal with tank classes that take more predictable rates of damage because they can choose and manage their cast times easier (obviously). bear tanks have very simple flow -- mobs give you damage, and you have a lot of health to soak it up. bursts on bears are very bursty indeed because high dodge rates are the only thing giving your healer a moment of breathing room before the rest of the attacks all sink into your hp. in theory, dps and hps can be calculated down to constant rates, but that requires enough time to elapse first. human judgment takes practice before it can recognize trends.
shamans can deal very effectively with group-wide damage (naturally), but little do you know, they also manage single target bursts a little better than priests because of talents like tidal force, earth shield, and tidal wave. essentially, shamans can manage a more consistent hot-like effect without eating global cooldowns for it.
paladins with their ultra-fast heals do fare a little better still on single target healing.
and, because i'm biased, i still think resto druids own all for dealing with any kind of incomming damage. with such a wide variety of healing spells available to us, druids have a tool for any healing required at any time. most relevantly, in your case, a tree would have been able to further mitigate incoming damage flow through your health pool via HOTs and still had plenty of time heal the excess with regrowth and swiftmend. over time, it's not as if druids have massive amounts more of healing throughput, the difference lies in the superior way that druids handle unpredictable damage. HOTs act to "even out" the spikes, and our direct heals are enough to manage what's left over. no other class has mechanics like that, and priests' ******************* button (shield) is just laughably weak for heroics and doesn't buy them enough time to "catch up" considering the loss of the global cooldown used.
priests are for pvp now.
it sounds like the priest's heals were just poorly timed and he wasn't able to keep up with bursts in your damage flow.
it's easiest for priests to deal with tank classes that take more predictable rates of damage because they can choose and manage their cast times easier (obviously). bear tanks have very simple flow -- mobs give you damage, and you have a lot of health to soak it up. bursts on bears are very bursty indeed because high dodge rates are the only thing giving your healer a moment of breathing room before the rest of the attacks all sink into your hp. in theory, dps and hps can be calculated down to constant rates, but that requires enough time to elapse first. human judgment takes practice before it can recognize trends.
shamans can deal very effectively with group-wide damage (naturally), but little do you know, they also manage single target bursts a little better than priests because of talents like tidal force, earth shield, and tidal wave. essentially, shamans can manage a more consistent hot-like effect without eating global cooldowns for it.
paladins with their ultra-fast heals do fare a little better still on single target healing.
and, because i'm biased, i still think resto druids own all for dealing with any kind of incomming damage. with such a wide variety of healing spells available to us, druids have a tool for any healing required at any time. most relevantly, in your case, a tree would have been able to further mitigate incoming damage flow through your health pool via HOTs and still had plenty of time heal the excess with regrowth and swiftmend. over time, it's not as if druids have massive amounts more of healing throughput, the difference lies in the superior way that druids handle unpredictable damage. HOTs act to "even out" the spikes, and our direct heals are enough to manage what's left over. no other class has mechanics like that, and priests' ******************* button (shield) is just laughably weak for heroics and doesn't buy them enough time to "catch up" considering the loss of the global cooldown used.
priests are for pvp now.
UK is pretty easy. It's so easy for the most part that as a healer it's easy to get a bit bored. Then you hit those dragons and they have a nasty bleed combined with a big flame breath. Every healer should expect big spikes on those pulls. Sounds to me like your healer went to sleep and then blamed you for it.
Typical of a whiney player who is critical of your gear but does not even know anything about it. +def on a druid? orz
I'm a holy pally and my prefered tank is a bear druid. She has a bit better gear than you now but even so I have to pay attention on the protodrake pulls becuase big spikes happen there and the bleed can kill people even after the mobs are dead.
Don't sweat it Para. :)
Typical of a whiney player who is critical of your gear but does not even know anything about it. +def on a druid? orz
I'm a holy pally and my prefered tank is a bear druid. She has a bit better gear than you now but even so I have to pay attention on the protodrake pulls becuase big spikes happen there and the bleed can kill people even after the mobs are dead.
Don't sweat it Para. :)
I think that healer was just a sped - as a bear tank the healers are always gasping in amazement at my health and AC compared to that of the tanks they're used to, with the health being the biggest attention getter, especially when I activate, ah shoot, forget the spell (one which boosts your health) which knocks my health up to just shy of 50k and healers inevitably give me a "WTF - 50k health?!?!? O_o"
rusttle wrote:
I think that healer was just a sped - as a bear tank the healers are always gasping in amazement at my health and AC compared to that of the tanks they're used to, with the health being the biggest attention getter, especially when I activate, ah shoot, forget the spell (one which boosts your health) which knocks my health up to just shy of 50k and healers inevitably give me a "WTF - 50k health?!?!? O_o"
Survival Instincts.
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