http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=13723783164&sid=1&pageNo=1
found that on the O-boards. the long and the short of it (but you should still read the OP) is that the warrior class is stagnating, especially when viewed in comparison to the other tanking classes. the warrior class is still saddled with some rather archaic limitations (stances, the ups and downs of rage as a resource) and it needs a serious revamp of some kind to breathe life into it.
read this post please and tell me what you guys think. im not going to say what i think about it because, honestly, im not sure yet. its a lot to digest. but its thought provoking, and well-written, and definetely worth your time.
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warrior class stagnation?Follow
While I do agree some of the mechanics are becoming obsolete, I still don't really care honestly (no offense to anyone).
The Warrior has been my favorite class since I started one way back in December '04 on Khadgar. I play the class because I enjoy it, and even if things like the stances and rage are getting a bit "meh", especially when compared to changes that have been made to other classes over the years, I still don't care. Playing my latest Warrior as Protection since 3.0 has been the most fun I've ever had with the game in a long time. I have blast running through heroics with my guildies as Prot, and the little PvP that I've done as this spec has been fun as well.
That's just my opinion, but I honestly could care less if they ever change any of the archaic Warriors mechanics. How it stands for me as of now, they don't need to, because I am having fun and enjoying myself regardless of change.
The Warrior has been my favorite class since I started one way back in December '04 on Khadgar. I play the class because I enjoy it, and even if things like the stances and rage are getting a bit "meh", especially when compared to changes that have been made to other classes over the years, I still don't care. Playing my latest Warrior as Protection since 3.0 has been the most fun I've ever had with the game in a long time. I have blast running through heroics with my guildies as Prot, and the little PvP that I've done as this spec has been fun as well.
That's just my opinion, but I honestly could care less if they ever change any of the archaic Warriors mechanics. How it stands for me as of now, they don't need to, because I am having fun and enjoying myself regardless of change.
I agree with Meatball. I love my warrior tank. I even have a DK but still prefer to tank on my warrior and dps on my DK. I don't think I would call their abilities archaic. It's a different playstyle. It's intended to be different. In all honesty I don't think the classes have really changed as much as they claim. Yes there have been a lot of changes but the playstyle of each class is basically the same as they ever were. I think the introduction of DKs along with the massive AOE fest that is currently in game has players feeling that the game is completely different. It is but it isn't.
Warriors are not archaic. It's just people looking at them as if they should be the newest and latest fad, like the DK. I'll continue to tank and play with my warrior. Why? Because I love the playstyle.
Warriors are not archaic. It's just people looking at them as if they should be the newest and latest fad, like the DK. I'll continue to tank and play with my warrior. Why? Because I love the playstyle.
For me as a healer, they could probably nerf warriors TO THE GROUND BABY and I'd still like them. Somehow warrior tanks have 'grown' onto me; I don't really feel like a party is complete when there's a non-warrior tanking.
Thank you Mozared. I appreciate the sentiment.
I have to say I agree with O-boards post. Even with 3.0.2 protection overhaul the class hasn't really changed. Sure some arrangements have been made to keep us viable for tanking/DPS, but basic principals are the same.
I totally agree with stances being completely and utterly disfunctional. First of all I don't know many tanks that change stances during fights now. of course before we had to due to berserker rage, charge and more stance restricions. Which are stupid to be perfectly honest.
All stances do is limiting our abilities. I am using defensive stance in solo because of restriction of revenge and shield slam. I can't use overpower, execution, victory strike which would make perfect sense in soloing. Sure I could get DPS set and fight in battle/zerker stance but what's the point of making prot solo viable then?
The other annoying thing is about stances are debuffs. Can You name any other class that requires you to stop using half of your abilities and get debuff for sake of using your best moves for chosen tree? It's stupid and archaic.
Our class is build around rage bar which is perfectly fine in principal. It has it pros and cons. Personally I hate the fact I can't go all out in TPS right off the bat at the beginning of the fight. I envy paladins ability to just go burst out their best moves to establish aggro. Many DPS are trigger happy and impatient. Our mechanics makes us much, much more likely to wipe because some jerks just won't watch omen. The other thing is imbalance of rage generation. To survive tough fights we stack avoidance(among other stats of course), but it limits our rage! I remember Prince fights(I had over 26% dodge at the time, stacked for 2nd phase purposes due to undergeared healers) which cause huge intervals of complete rage starvation. It was very frustrating, mighty rage pots can only help so much... It's rather big price we pay for being able to go kill for as long as we have HP. Sure rage is better now but it doesn't mean it's perfect.
Despite all those thing I wrote I will stay on my warrior main until end of time. The class just grows in you:)
I totally agree with stances being completely and utterly disfunctional. First of all I don't know many tanks that change stances during fights now. of course before we had to due to berserker rage, charge and more stance restricions. Which are stupid to be perfectly honest.
All stances do is limiting our abilities. I am using defensive stance in solo because of restriction of revenge and shield slam. I can't use overpower, execution, victory strike which would make perfect sense in soloing. Sure I could get DPS set and fight in battle/zerker stance but what's the point of making prot solo viable then?
The other annoying thing is about stances are debuffs. Can You name any other class that requires you to stop using half of your abilities and get debuff for sake of using your best moves for chosen tree? It's stupid and archaic.
Our class is build around rage bar which is perfectly fine in principal. It has it pros and cons. Personally I hate the fact I can't go all out in TPS right off the bat at the beginning of the fight. I envy paladins ability to just go burst out their best moves to establish aggro. Many DPS are trigger happy and impatient. Our mechanics makes us much, much more likely to wipe because some jerks just won't watch omen. The other thing is imbalance of rage generation. To survive tough fights we stack avoidance(among other stats of course), but it limits our rage! I remember Prince fights(I had over 26% dodge at the time, stacked for 2nd phase purposes due to undergeared healers) which cause huge intervals of complete rage starvation. It was very frustrating, mighty rage pots can only help so much... It's rather big price we pay for being able to go kill for as long as we have HP. Sure rage is better now but it doesn't mean it's perfect.
Despite all those thing I wrote I will stay on my warrior main until end of time. The class just grows in you:)
Scholar
40 posts
Blizzard should just have given us a new stance that combines the stances. Similar to how Hunters got Aspect of the dragonhawk which is Aspect of the hawk and monkey combined.
Such as a Battle/zerker or battle/def stance.
Such as a Battle/zerker or battle/def stance.
I agree with Mental on this one. Seems to me the OP of that topic is just bored with his warrior and thinks blizz should change it to something new.
I think I have read this type of complaint about each class. They changed XXX class so much, why haven't they changed my YYY class, it's stale and boring...
I think the last big one I read was pre-wrath with mages. Gets kind of old.
I think I have read this type of complaint about each class. They changed XXX class so much, why haven't they changed my YYY class, it's stale and boring...
I think the last big one I read was pre-wrath with mages. Gets kind of old.
it's a bit annoying for me, as a warrior tank...
my guild has about 4 DK's (a lot for a small guild)...
i'm sure many servers are facing the same thing... an infestation of DK's...
i was most annoyed when a DK pulled Drek off me... a simple taunt and some SS and Dev took care of that... but still, when it's clear that i've established aggro and held it... no sense by pulling aggro just to flex one's uber pride...
meh... i'm patient... i'll give it time... i'm sure many will prove to be a competent DK tank, many will prove to be otherwise...
but given time, i'm sure that again, despite the class, it's the player that makes a good tank...
my guild has about 4 DK's (a lot for a small guild)...
i'm sure many servers are facing the same thing... an infestation of DK's...
i was most annoyed when a DK pulled Drek off me... a simple taunt and some SS and Dev took care of that... but still, when it's clear that i've established aggro and held it... no sense by pulling aggro just to flex one's uber pride...
meh... i'm patient... i'll give it time... i'm sure many will prove to be a competent DK tank, many will prove to be otherwise...
but given time, i'm sure that again, despite the class, it's the player that makes a good tank...
Here are some gems for that o-boards thread.
Warriors probably have changed the least since vanilla from my understanding. Much of the grief in the thread is about that fact. O-board posters are whinny little ******* though.
This is likely. Blizz has been juggling PvP/PvE balance for a while now. Eventually they will drop the ball and the ball will break.
Just funny.
Again this is funny sh*t here people.
I laughed every time someone quoted this little gem.
If anything I could see a stance over haul helping warriors. I remember a Quor post about it during the end of beta. Only gotten one to level 15ish so really can't say from experience.
The mental image is just....
They had a post about druid tanks being 'teh suxor' and how healers hated us. Turns out ****** druids post on the o-boards or all the Alla druids are liars. I am going with the first. I am guessing there might be a similar thing going on here.
One more quote to close it out.
Jathine wrote:
You don't understand what the word evolve actually refers to, do you? Go read up on your biology a bit. Evolution only occurs when you need to fill a niche in order to survive or make survival easier. Warriors have no problem with getting raids spots no matter what their spec is. No evolution is needed. We are extremely similar to sharks in that regard.
Warriors probably have changed the least since vanilla from my understanding. Much of the grief in the thread is about that fact. O-board posters are whinny little ******* though.
Dasani wrote:
I'm thinking the extereme balance problem in pvp in this game is going to lead to its own demise.
This is likely. Blizz has been juggling PvP/PvE balance for a while now. Eventually they will drop the ball and the ball will break.
Jathine wrote:
The season is exactly 3 days old and people are whining exactly like they did 3 days into S1.
Just funny.
Lotena wrote:
Grats. Bla bla bla. Prot spec warrior tank in guild bla bla bla.
Again this is funny sh*t here people.
Gaynor wrote:
To the communists and trolls above. STFU. People are allowed opinions. If you dont like it move to China.
I laughed every time someone quoted this little gem.
Kamynari wrote:
Stances are largely outdated (the devs like them because they think dancing is part of the concept of the class, but we don't actually dance anymore)
If anything I could see a stance over haul helping warriors. I remember a Quor post about it during the end of beta. Only gotten one to level 15ish so really can't say from experience.
Osirus wrote:
What exactly do you want? jets of fire shooting from your eyes and bolts of lightning from your ***** We are warriors, cosmetics on such a linear fantasy model only go sofar.
The mental image is just....
They had a post about druid tanks being 'teh suxor' and how healers hated us. Turns out ****** druids post on the o-boards or all the Alla druids are liars. I am going with the first. I am guessing there might be a similar thing going on here.
One more quote to close it out.
MentalFrog wrote:
Warriors are not archaic. It's just people looking at them as if they should be the newest and latest fad, like the DK. I'll continue to tank and play with my warrior. Why? Because I love the playstyle.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
The other annoying thing is about stances are debuffs. Can You name any other class that requires you to stop using half of your abilities and get debuff for sake of using your best moves for chosen tree? It's stupid and archaic.
have you heard? there's this class called a "druid" and they specialize even more than warriors do. take your snare-immune, plate wearing QQing back to the O-boards.
stances limit warrior abilities for the simple reason that warriors need limiting.
To say that I'm fond of my warrior would be an understatement, as I'm virtually unable to play any other class for longer than a few hours before I go insane. I have a rogue that I occasionally play, but he's stuck at 70 right now. There are plenty of things about warriors that I would perhaps enjoy seeing tweaked, but overall I'm happy. The rage mechanic can at times feel constricting, but it's one of the aspects of the class I really enjoy.Intelligent use of rage is one of the things that separates good warriors from bad ones. The same is said of certain abilities only being usable within certain stances. The one mechanic that I WOULD like seeing a bit of an overhaul are the archaic bonuses and penalties we have on stances. Defensive stance I think is fairly spot on, but battle and zerker are just...well, terrible. 3% crit can hardly be called a real benefit, and the fact that it causes us to take 10% more damage is ludicrous to me. Something needs to either be done about the penalty, or the bonus needs to be changed to something that will actually scale for us. Battle stance seems equally odd to me, and always has, because of the fact that it does absolutely nothing for us.
Overall though, I think most of the issues that people have with the class is just QQ and lack of skill.
Overall though, I think most of the issues that people have with the class is just QQ and lack of skill.
Considering I've been protection for all of WotLK so far, I have to say my experiences are limited, but I absolutely love the new protection and it's almost NOTHING like the protection warrior I played as a fresh 70 when TBC was still new.
Quote:
Quote:
have you heard? there's this class called a "druid" and they specialize even more than warriors do. take your snare-immune, plate wearing QQing back to the O-boards.
stances limit warrior abilities for the simple reason that warriors need limiting.
have you heard? there's this class called a "druid" and they specialize even more than warriors do. take your snare-immune, plate wearing QQing back to the O-boards.
stances limit warrior abilities for the simple reason that warriors need limiting.
How very mature way of argumenting. There is huge difference between warriors and druids. Yeah changing balance geared druid into bear form is completely logical. There is logic into druid limitations due to their itemization, which I don't neccesarily see in warriors. I could use victory rush, overpower while wearing a shield. Swiping in bear from while having 2k spell power isn't the same. Sorry.
"Snare-immune, plate wearing QQ"? I don't think it's me who is QQ'ing. Warrior stance overhaul isn't reasonable. It hasn't been changed since release and forgive for thinking it might be fun to see some changes to that, that would't change feeling of class.
i dont consider druids to suffer from the same penalties as a warrior does on the sole reason that a druid trades actual spell resource mechanics when shifting into cat or bear form. i.e. they are completely changing their "class" and thus cant really be compared to other classes (who have no "class change" mechanic). a better analogy would be a druid in moonkin or a shadow priest in shadowform. both classes lose access to skill (healing or dps spells) but gain a few buffs in the process (more armor, crit, and mana regen on crit or a straight damage increase and physical damage reduction). this is analogous to the skill restrictions warriors face when switching stances. the difference lies in the fact that warrior stances come with a tangible loss above and beyond skill restriction. for instance, moonkin form doesnt incur an increased spell damage taken penalty or something. aside from the skill lockout (which again, is shared by warriors) moonkin form doesnt incur any kind of penalty at all.
Mozared wrote:
For me as a healer, they could probably nerf warriors TO THE GROUND BABY and I'd still like them. Somehow warrior tanks have 'grown' onto me; I don't really feel like a party is complete when there's a non-warrior tanking.
This. Maybe it's just the fact that I know more good warrior tanks then any other class on my server but I prefer to have a warrior tanking in my group. Vigilance ftw! Long live the warrior tank!
Edited, Jan 5th 2009 5:35am by arthoriuss
I read through the OP and some of the replies he got. Just from scanning through it I think that the OP hasn't really paid much attention to other classes mechanics that much in WoTLK.
I'm still leveling my warrior(72 atm), but I did level my rogue to 80 and I have done a little bit of raiding. Based off what I have experienced on my rogue, dps wise, rogues are getting shafted(to a certain extent) now. Rogues are a pure dps class and there are hybrids out dpsing them with similar to worse gear. The only reason I mention this is because rogues were brought up a lot later in the thread by the OP and others, and they were discussing all the "great" new talents other classe got except warriors.
I know that my rogue got Fan of Knives and Tricks of the Trade. Now, ToT is a great spell, but nothing to crazy about it compared to mage's mirror spell, and Fan of Knives is probaly the most sub-par aoe spell they could have ever thought of.
I think that I will make my warrior my main because I'm having way more fun leveling him than I did my rogue, and I love Titan's grip.
I'm still leveling my warrior(72 atm), but I did level my rogue to 80 and I have done a little bit of raiding. Based off what I have experienced on my rogue, dps wise, rogues are getting shafted(to a certain extent) now. Rogues are a pure dps class and there are hybrids out dpsing them with similar to worse gear. The only reason I mention this is because rogues were brought up a lot later in the thread by the OP and others, and they were discussing all the "great" new talents other classe got except warriors.
I know that my rogue got Fan of Knives and Tricks of the Trade. Now, ToT is a great spell, but nothing to crazy about it compared to mage's mirror spell, and Fan of Knives is probaly the most sub-par aoe spell they could have ever thought of.
I think that I will make my warrior my main because I'm having way more fun leveling him than I did my rogue, and I love Titan's grip.
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