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Evi or Env for Mutilate?Follow

#1 Dec 16 2008 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
Having recently hit 80 I'm going to start doing some heroics and eventually raiding.
I levelled mutilate and decided to stick with it and spec mutilate raiding 51/13/7

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0ef0exoVboIzAo0xV0hZxb

I never used envenom in the past and wondering whether I should change.
If I got rid of Imp. Poisons for Imp. Evi and put the 2 points somewhere else and then couple this with the Evi glyph.
On trash mobs I never usually rupture so would evi + wound/wound would be more effective than stacking deadly and env?
It just seems a waste on trash mobs stacking the poison, on bosses however I persume would be a different matter.

Is there any equations/tests that show the different in damage (which I can only see being on boss fights)
Does anyone use evi over env, and why?





#2 Dec 16 2008 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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2,680 posts
Using Evis for leveling/soloing is great and all, but for raiding you want to use Envenom. Eviscerate is mitigated by armor, Envenom is not. You could go nuts and wound/wound for trash and swap poisons for bosses, but you will need 4/5 in Imp Poisons for optimizing raiding DPS with DP.
#3 Dec 16 2008 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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924 posts
There's room in a raiding mutilate build for 5/5 imp poisons, and should be fully abused as such.

If your weapons are both < 1.5 speed, just stick with instant/deadly for both trash and bosses. There's nothing quite like chaining 7k envenom crits/5k mute crits on trash. If you're lucky enough with ruthlessness procs you can keep the envenom buff up almost constantly on short trash fights =D
#4 Dec 16 2008 at 2:19 PM Rating: Default
Thanks for the quick replies. Would using deadly MH and instant OH work the best?
#5 Dec 16 2008 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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2,680 posts
When glyphed for, you would drop 1 point into Vigor and go 4/5 Imp Poisons for raiding. But there are some arguments back and forth about that. Otherwise 5/5 IP is basic raiding setup for mutilate.

For mutilate, deadly goes on the slower of your weapons. IP or WP on the faster. I often run WP on trash but with all the AOE going on I'm not sure it matters much right now. This may change.
#6 Dec 16 2008 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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811 posts
I ran a recount doing the same thing, WP for trash IP for bosses. Obviously the IP dealt more damage being longer in duration, but its number of hits vs white hits was only a touch lower than WP. Being 5/5 in imp. poisons, this makes sense, and supports the DP/IP on bosses.
#7 Dec 17 2008 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
currently i have 1pt in vigor and 5/5 imp poisons, do you guys swap that 1pt in poisons and put it into ruthlessness?
#8 Dec 17 2008 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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2,680 posts
3/3 Ruthlessness is pretty standard for raiding.
#9 Dec 17 2008 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
Just been running a few heroics and I tend to find wound/wound on trash works fine with evi, and deadly/instant with env on bosses.
Trash mobs don't allow enough time to stack deadly and I find my evi crits hitting harder.
With this rotation for trash:
Garrote
SnD
Mut x2
Evi

And for bosses:
Garrote
Mut x2
Snd
Mut x2
Rup
Mut x2
Env

Refreshing HfB when below 10 seconds.

I'm glyphed rupture, snd and garrote but not sure whether to drop one for vigor, and lose a point in imp. poisons.
I'll have to look into it.
#10 Dec 17 2008 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
@3/3 ruthlessness...

theo wrote:
He doesn't have it glyphed or you'd see him with 120 energy on his character sheet.

It's for energy pooling. And we've always dropped one point in Ruthlessness.


from another thread a few weeks ago. Just misleading.

Also looks like Vulajin dropped Vigor.
#11 Dec 18 2008 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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2,680 posts
Taking 1 point from Ruthlessness would be worse than taking it from Imp Poisons on my spreadsheet, so... dunno.
#12 Dec 18 2008 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
It's gear dependent, It's showing opposite on mine. 2/3 ruthe and 5/5ip is better atm for me.

Moral of the story which hopefully everyone already knows, yet is hard to beat into newer players minds:

get spreadsheet!
#13 Dec 18 2008 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
here's what i dont get: sure envenom isnt affected by armor, but what about the deadly poisons it consumes? do the ticks on them get added to the damage of envenom, or are they just lost? also, doesnt that potentially lower your dps because then you have to wait for a poison to be reapplied before you can mutilate again?
#14 Dec 18 2008 at 11:24 PM Rating: Good
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2,680 posts
Envenom consumes your DP stack, yes. But with Imp Poisons you're going to get a reapply of DP very quickly allowing for very little downtime between Mutilates. Energy is more an issue than the stack in practice. Building DP stacks is really not a concern while on a raid boss so far as I've seen. From what I'm seeing, losing a bit of uptime on the DP stack's damage is not outweighed by keeping the stacks and going with Evis. Quest mobs, with much lower armor, are easier to kill with Evis. But for bosses the numbers still seem to show Envenom on top.

Check the links, do some math and decide for yourself. =)
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