Fast approaching 80 with my pally with the intent of healing for raids & pvp.
Quick question, do holy pally's ever judge?
At first I thought no, but seeing Enlightened Judgements & Judgements of the Pure in deep holy made me unsure.
Thanks in advance!
Edited, Dec 14th 2008 11:30pm by Zaknalfein
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Healing and Judgements....Follow
Some don't judge...
The really good ones and better all do. Holy is special in that the procs that you get when judging are NOT overwritten by another Paladin judging the same thing. If you're running with other Paladins, ESPECIALLY Protection Paladins, make sure you're very clear on what you're judging because your judgements will overwrite the debuffs that other Paladin judgements put on mobs.
Rets usually want to judge Wisdom, but Justice works if they want that instead. Protection ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS judges Light (judging Light will get them an extra 2000 TPS in a 25man raid) which leaves you with Justice most of the time when you have all three specs available. Otherwise you're probably best just judging Wisdom if you're on your own.
The really good ones and better all do. Holy is special in that the procs that you get when judging are NOT overwritten by another Paladin judging the same thing. If you're running with other Paladins, ESPECIALLY Protection Paladins, make sure you're very clear on what you're judging because your judgements will overwrite the debuffs that other Paladin judgements put on mobs.
Rets usually want to judge Wisdom, but Justice works if they want that instead. Protection ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS judges Light (judging Light will get them an extra 2000 TPS in a 25man raid) which leaves you with Justice most of the time when you have all three specs available. Otherwise you're probably best just judging Wisdom if you're on your own.
Yes, Judge away. Bring up Seal of Wisdom for a -5% heal cost, and just something/anything to get the 15% haste buff.
Definitely should be judging -- aside from the benefit that the judgement brings, your getting the haste, a party-wide boost to crit (if you've specced into Heart of the Crusader) and your chipping away just a bit at the mob's health. Remember, however, that your primary role is to heal, and if you feel like there's too much damage going around to safely judge, then don't. I tend to judge a little bit less in encounters that I'm unfamiliar with, especially if the damage to the party piles up fast.
At level 80 you'll get Sacred Shield, which adds another thing to throw around on your party. I'm finding that healing now is a little bit more frenetic in terms of pacing, which is not a bad thing, in my opinion.
At level 80 you'll get Sacred Shield, which adds another thing to throw around on your party. I'm finding that healing now is a little bit more frenetic in terms of pacing, which is not a bad thing, in my opinion.
Judging = win. I usually have JoL on as many mobs as possible. When someone does AOE (i.e. your tank), then they will get multiple heals from JoL. It's awesome.
Also, 15% Haste? Yes please :)
As Losie said though - coordinate with any other Paladins in the group. If you have 2 other Paladins who are judging away, then you don't need to. Otherwise, you should.
Edited, Dec 15th 2008 12:09pm by YJMark
Also, 15% Haste? Yes please :)
As Losie said though - coordinate with any other Paladins in the group. If you have 2 other Paladins who are judging away, then you don't need to. Otherwise, you should.
Edited, Dec 15th 2008 12:09pm by YJMark
Does anyone know for sure if effects like JoL and the HoT from Glyphed Flash of Light bleed over to the tank when they are the beacon of light? I have not payed enough attention to the combat logs to check. I'll have to look into one when we run our heroics tonight.
Anyway yeah I always judge light. It heals the DPS for ton and its a no brainer how beneficial the crit and haste are. I have gotten into trouble judgeing it to early before though on big pulls where the tank does not have agro. Oops all the mobs are running for me! (Bubble time)
But yeah if you wait just a bit until the tank has agro its a great bonus to healing. I absolutely love the extra 30 yards range of it when talented as well.
Anyway yeah I always judge light. It heals the DPS for ton and its a no brainer how beneficial the crit and haste are. I have gotten into trouble judgeing it to early before though on big pulls where the tank does not have agro. Oops all the mobs are running for me! (Bubble time)
But yeah if you wait just a bit until the tank has agro its a great bonus to healing. I absolutely love the extra 30 yards range of it when talented as well.
Before 3.0, judging for Holy was a waste since there was no knock-on benefit like JotP, it consumed the seal, and you could only refresh it by wading into melee.
Now, it's invaluable, even when you have both a prot and a ret in your raid. Blizzard seems to want us to move away from FoL spam, but at the same time are leaving in a lot of the movement that apparently made Sunwell so fun (my guild capped out at T5, so I can't say from experience). The haste from JotP is huge - .3/.4 second doesn't sound like much, and it doesn't /feel/ like much, but it adds up.
Seal Wisdom (get the glyph), arrange with any other paladins who judges what (so that no one gets overwritten). Remember that JotP is a one-minute buff, so you don't have to judge on cooldown, and if something like keeping the tank up or moving out of the fire takes priority, you can even let the judgement lapse without losing the haste.
Just be careful that the tank has at least a little aggro on the mob you target. Even the tiny damage it does is still DPS...
Now, it's invaluable, even when you have both a prot and a ret in your raid. Blizzard seems to want us to move away from FoL spam, but at the same time are leaving in a lot of the movement that apparently made Sunwell so fun (my guild capped out at T5, so I can't say from experience). The haste from JotP is huge - .3/.4 second doesn't sound like much, and it doesn't /feel/ like much, but it adds up.
Seal Wisdom (get the glyph), arrange with any other paladins who judges what (so that no one gets overwritten). Remember that JotP is a one-minute buff, so you don't have to judge on cooldown, and if something like keeping the tank up or moving out of the fire takes priority, you can even let the judgement lapse without losing the haste.
Just be careful that the tank has at least a little aggro on the mob you target. Even the tiny damage it does is still DPS...
Master Shojindo wrote:
Does anyone know for sure if effects like JoL and the HoT from Glyphed Flash of Light bleed over to the tank when they are the beacon of light?
As far as I know they do not. I believe Bacon heals on the tank only come from the heals you directly cast on someone else, so no effects from glyphs or Judgement of Light. I never had the Vial of the Sunwell trinket (the one that gives you an instant heal, so I'm not sure about that. I'm also not sure if the Arcane surge from the SSO necklace triggers Beacon (Yes, I'm still using that piece), though I may be able to check on it...
[Edit]Just took a look at a combat log, and there is no spillover of Arcane Surge or glyph healing to the Beacon.
Edited, Dec 15th 2008 3:56pm by meagherly
Thanks for checking. That makes me think the new FoL glyph for a straight 5% crit will be better than the HoT effect one at least. But I do like thowing the glyphed flashes on DPS and knowing theat they will be healed for a bit for future splash.
Hopefully Blizz will give us something else to make up for it. The effect on sheath of light crits for example sure would be nice.
Hopefully Blizz will give us something else to make up for it. The effect on sheath of light crits for example sure would be nice.
Master Shokindo wrote:
That makes me think the new FoL glyph for a straight 5% crit will be better than the HoT effect one at least.
What glyph is this? 5% crit would be phenomenal!
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=2;mid=1229018030309807398;num=13;page=1
On the PTR now. Not sure if it will go live.
On the PTR now. Not sure if it will go live.
Master Shojindo wrote:
Thanks for checking. That makes me think the new FoL glyph for a straight 5% crit will be better than the HoT effect one at least. But I do like thowing the glyphed flashes on DPS and knowing theat they will be healed for a bit for future splash.
Hopefully Blizz will give us something else to make up for it. The effect on sheath of light crits for example sure would be nice.
Hopefully Blizz will give us something else to make up for it. The effect on sheath of light crits for example sure would be nice.
I think the new FoL glyph will have a place in pvp (specifically arenas), but I still wouldn't take it over Glyph of Wis, SoL, and HoL. -5% cost to all your heals, +5% effect to all your heals, and a 10 yd heal to 5 players from HoL is still far more efficient in my opinion.
PS: You had the FoL Glyph to begin with?! It completely destroys the point of FoL, which is its spammability and high return, 50% off the heal makes it crap tbh, even with the dot.
Always judge, 15% haste is godly, this should always be up.
Always seal, -5% mana cost (along with the badge libram and stacking crit) is a major part of top end pally strategy.
Right now Crit is through the roof for pallies. In fact if you look at the Holy Pally from EU Method (first to get 3 drakes down) he has crit coming out the wang (40% I believe). Basically you can shave a lot of mana off HoL by 4 piece, glyph and libram. When you crit though you get the mana back from the base 1270 mana, which is awesome. Mp5 is now the worst stat available for pallies thanks to Divine plea, where before you had to balance Mp5/Crit to maximize mana efficiency now you just stack crit/int with as much haste as you can get.
The other pally in guild is still playing with a pre-wotlk mindset and not using Beacon, Sacred Shield and judgements to his advantage and I doubled his healing on Sartharion 2 drakes last night. In fact I did a little bit more than double. Same with 25 man malygos I triple him. Start using those new tools so they get cast without thought or find yourself being terrible.
Edited, Dec 15th 2008 10:01pm by bodhisattva
Always seal, -5% mana cost (along with the badge libram and stacking crit) is a major part of top end pally strategy.
Right now Crit is through the roof for pallies. In fact if you look at the Holy Pally from EU Method (first to get 3 drakes down) he has crit coming out the wang (40% I believe). Basically you can shave a lot of mana off HoL by 4 piece, glyph and libram. When you crit though you get the mana back from the base 1270 mana, which is awesome. Mp5 is now the worst stat available for pallies thanks to Divine plea, where before you had to balance Mp5/Crit to maximize mana efficiency now you just stack crit/int with as much haste as you can get.
The other pally in guild is still playing with a pre-wotlk mindset and not using Beacon, Sacred Shield and judgements to his advantage and I doubled his healing on Sartharion 2 drakes last night. In fact I did a little bit more than double. Same with 25 man malygos I triple him. Start using those new tools so they get cast without thought or find yourself being terrible.
Edited, Dec 15th 2008 10:01pm by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Hikuu wrote:
PS: You had the FoL Glyph to begin with?! It completely destroys the point of FoL, which is its spammability and high return, 50% off the heal makes it crap tbh, even with the dot
It's just a slightly different way of doing the same thing. When it heals for 140% after the 50% you don't spam it as much. You lay it on the tank and watch as they are healed over time. It's also nice for the DPS instead of overhealing them when they are not heavily damaged you lay a FoL on them and they are sill healing the next time they take spash rather than taking new damage that wont be healed by your previous overheal. Ask a resto druid if that coms in handy or not.
Quote:
Glyph of Wis, SoL, and HoL. -5% cost to all your heals, +5% effect to all your heals
Those are both based on the seal you have on your weapon. So they are not both up at the same time...... I have the HoL 10% group heal and I love it. I have not been able to find the SoW glyph yet on my server. I'm watching the AH for it and bugging my guildies but no love on that one yet.
My gear is not that great yet and I am only healing heroics until we start Naxx on Friday but with my ~1700 SP ~30% crit my crit Flashes heal for about 2500 then tick for 800-900. Those are pretty nice ticks. It's situational for sure but in my groups right now the non tanks do tend to take splash damage still. So I kinda like it.
Edited, Dec 15th 2008 9:18pm by Shojindo
A little OT, but when did people start using HoL to abbreviate Holy Light? I always saw it as HL. Just curious.
Bod - question for you. Do you stack crit until you reach a certain point (like 30% unbuffed Holy), then start laying on haste? I have essentially been focusing purely on stacking crit, and it's been working pretty good. The only time I get gear with haste is when there is a signifcant boost to SP or Int on the gear (or it has both haste and crit). Otherwise, I favor crit. I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on this.
Asking a resto druid about Pally healing? Interesting. The FoL glyph with the HoT was good for certain situations (tossing single HoTs around for light splash damage). However, it does not maximize your healing capabilities. Yes, it will work fine in simple situations (i.e. where you can cast one on the tank and let the HoT build...but that pretty much means that your tank isn't taking much damage). However, remember that druids can stack HoTs and make the entire HoT heal at once. The FoL glyph doesn't have any of that capability. That is the big difference in healing. If the FoL Glyph would've stacked and you could make the HoT happen all at once....everyone would be using it :)
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 7:02am by YJMark
Bod - question for you. Do you stack crit until you reach a certain point (like 30% unbuffed Holy), then start laying on haste? I have essentially been focusing purely on stacking crit, and it's been working pretty good. The only time I get gear with haste is when there is a signifcant boost to SP or Int on the gear (or it has both haste and crit). Otherwise, I favor crit. I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on this.
Master Shojindo wrote:
Ask a resto druid if that coms in handy or not.
Asking a resto druid about Pally healing? Interesting. The FoL glyph with the HoT was good for certain situations (tossing single HoTs around for light splash damage). However, it does not maximize your healing capabilities. Yes, it will work fine in simple situations (i.e. where you can cast one on the tank and let the HoT build...but that pretty much means that your tank isn't taking much damage). However, remember that druids can stack HoTs and make the entire HoT heal at once. The FoL glyph doesn't have any of that capability. That is the big difference in healing. If the FoL Glyph would've stacked and you could make the HoT happen all at once....everyone would be using it :)
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 7:02am by YJMark
It's one of those things that people won't agree on becuase it's purely preference, opinion, or style. It's a moot point anyway since they are changing it to something else. :D
The FoL HoT glyph is trash and not designed for Holy Paladins, it is actually designed for Ret.
From what I am hearing crit doesn't scale off like it did in pre-bc where it started to scale down in effectiveness after 28-30%. So yeah go wild, its OP right now. Intellect is the new mp5, it has always been a strong stat for pallies since it buffs our mana pool, crit and spell power. Now that is effectively MP5 its even stronger though by the time you are 20k+ mana you should be good for most fights on mana regen. Haste is always powerful, I am sitting at 370ish and with 15% from JotP I have Holy Lights going off at 1.5-1.6 seconds it just lets you get those heals off in time. Before it was limited to t6/swp gear, since there was limited haste before that and you really didnt have the mana regen in below that to deal with stacking it 300+ or gemming for it as well.
Before you had to balance crit/mp5 now it seems like its haste/crit. I am still playing around with it myself, 33% crit, 370 haste and I haven't tried 3 drakes yet (though 2 down in 10 man and 25 man) and I am blowing meters up and not having much in the way of mana issues. Though I appear to be an enigma for holy pallies since in most top end healing squads they appear to be holding up the bottom on the meters right now where I am dancing my way to top 1-2 spots on every fight so far. Healing is so situational though, whether that is due to other healing classes no meeting their potential or me being a phenom (I am though :P) is up in the air right now.
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 7:20pm by bodhisattva
From what I am hearing crit doesn't scale off like it did in pre-bc where it started to scale down in effectiveness after 28-30%. So yeah go wild, its OP right now. Intellect is the new mp5, it has always been a strong stat for pallies since it buffs our mana pool, crit and spell power. Now that is effectively MP5 its even stronger though by the time you are 20k+ mana you should be good for most fights on mana regen. Haste is always powerful, I am sitting at 370ish and with 15% from JotP I have Holy Lights going off at 1.5-1.6 seconds it just lets you get those heals off in time. Before it was limited to t6/swp gear, since there was limited haste before that and you really didnt have the mana regen in below that to deal with stacking it 300+ or gemming for it as well.
Before you had to balance crit/mp5 now it seems like its haste/crit. I am still playing around with it myself, 33% crit, 370 haste and I haven't tried 3 drakes yet (though 2 down in 10 man and 25 man) and I am blowing meters up and not having much in the way of mana issues. Though I appear to be an enigma for holy pallies since in most top end healing squads they appear to be holding up the bottom on the meters right now where I am dancing my way to top 1-2 spots on every fight so far. Healing is so situational though, whether that is due to other healing classes no meeting their potential or me being a phenom (I am though :P) is up in the air right now.
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 7:20pm by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Going to re-rail this thread a little bit, if anyone is interested in a macro for Judgments as a healer (it's probably posted somewhere, but for your convenience):
This will cast the Judgement if you're targeting an enemy for soloing, and if you're targeting an ally it will cast it on their enemy target (so you just have to hit the button to keep your Judgement up while you're healing a group).
Quote:
/cast [harm] [target=targettarget, harm] Judgement of Wisdom
This will cast the Judgement if you're targeting an enemy for soloing, and if you're targeting an ally it will cast it on their enemy target (so you just have to hit the button to keep your Judgement up while you're healing a group).
angryempath wrote:
Going to re-rail this thread a little bit, if anyone is interested in a macro for Judgments as a healer (it's probably posted somewhere, but for your convenience):
This will cast the Judgement if you're targeting an enemy for soloing, and if you're targeting an ally it will cast it on their enemy target (so you just have to hit the button to keep your Judgement up while you're healing a group).
Quote:
/cast [harm] [target=targettarget, harm] Judgement of Wisdom
This will cast the Judgement if you're targeting an enemy for soloing, and if you're targeting an ally it will cast it on their enemy target (so you just have to hit the button to keep your Judgement up while you're healing a group).
I'd rate you up more if I could! TYTY!
bodhisattva wrote:
Mp5 is now the worst stat available for pallies thanks to Divine plea, where before you had to balance Mp5/Crit to maximize mana efficiency now you just stack crit/int with as much haste as you can get.
Honest question: when you're lighting up the tank, do you find that the -20% healing from Divine Plea is tough to deal with, or is it more of an annoyance?
Bodster wrote:
The FoL HoT glyph is trash and not designed for Holy Paladins, it is actually designed for Ret.
Ok ok I give in its gone. XD It was a fun novelty but there were times when I wish I had a reg FoL along side of it no doubt. I was probally trying to convince myself I liked it. Nice macro mpath!
Glad you guys like the macro =)
*returns to the derailment of this thread*
IMO the "old FoL Glyph" would've been better if it did one of the following:
1) Let the HoT stack with itself to some extent
2) Did a normal heal when your target already had the Glyph HoT on them
3) Healed for the normal amount of a FoL and then had a chance to give a HoT for an extra %
4) Turned your extra healing from a Crit into a HoT (less overhealing, probably would be more useful as a HL glyph though)
Having a HoT was neat but I think it wasn't executed as well as it could've been, hopefully they'll make a new glyph that gives us a more useful HoT in the future.
*returns to the derailment of this thread*
IMO the "old FoL Glyph" would've been better if it did one of the following:
1) Let the HoT stack with itself to some extent
2) Did a normal heal when your target already had the Glyph HoT on them
3) Healed for the normal amount of a FoL and then had a chance to give a HoT for an extra %
4) Turned your extra healing from a Crit into a HoT (less overhealing, probably would be more useful as a HL glyph though)
Having a HoT was neat but I think it wasn't executed as well as it could've been, hopefully they'll make a new glyph that gives us a more useful HoT in the future.
angryempath wrote:
IMO the "old FoL Glyph" would've been better if it did one of the following:
1) Let the HoT stack with itself to some extent
2) Did a normal heal when your target already had the Glyph HoT on them
3) Healed for the normal amount of a FoL and then had a chance to give a HoT for an extra %
4) Turned your extra healing from a Crit into a HoT (less overhealing, probably would be more useful as a HL glyph though)
1) Let the HoT stack with itself to some extent
2) Did a normal heal when your target already had the Glyph HoT on them
3) Healed for the normal amount of a FoL and then had a chance to give a HoT for an extra %
4) Turned your extra healing from a Crit into a HoT (less overhealing, probably would be more useful as a HL glyph though)
1 and 4 would have made it too much like Sheath of Light, which they said they don't want Holy to have. I've had Sheath ticking for up to 2100, but then an unlucky string of non-crits dropped it off.
20% reduction to heals is nothing, especially if you time it around damage in fights. Example, Malygos. Every minute he does a cyclone where you can't cast and it lasts 10-15 seconds. Pop it as it starts and come out of it with 5-6k more mana.
15 seconds of 20% healing is well worth the mana regen, proactive use is also key. If I have 23k mana and get 6k mana back per minute I am popping it as soon as I am 18k mana, from there on its cooldown. Avg boss fight is 6-10 minutes you will see at least 24k mana back from it. Illumination with the way crit works now is a little scary too.
15 seconds of 20% healing is well worth the mana regen, proactive use is also key. If I have 23k mana and get 6k mana back per minute I am popping it as soon as I am 18k mana, from there on its cooldown. Avg boss fight is 6-10 minutes you will see at least 24k mana back from it. Illumination with the way crit works now is a little scary too.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
bodhisattva wrote:
Always judge, 15% haste is godly, this should always be up.
Always seal, -5% mana cost (along with the badge libram and stacking crit) is a major part of top end pally strategy.
Right now Crit is through the roof for pallies. In fact if you look at the Holy Pally from EU Method (first to get 3 drakes down) he has crit coming out the wang (40% I believe). Basically you can shave a lot of mana off HoL by 4 piece, glyph and libram. When you crit though you get the mana back from the base 1270 mana, which is awesome. Mp5 is now the worst stat available for pallies thanks to Divine plea, where before you had to balance Mp5/Crit to maximize mana efficiency now you just stack crit/int with as much haste as you can get.
Always seal, -5% mana cost (along with the badge libram and stacking crit) is a major part of top end pally strategy.
Right now Crit is through the roof for pallies. In fact if you look at the Holy Pally from EU Method (first to get 3 drakes down) he has crit coming out the wang (40% I believe). Basically you can shave a lot of mana off HoL by 4 piece, glyph and libram. When you crit though you get the mana back from the base 1270 mana, which is awesome. Mp5 is now the worst stat available for pallies thanks to Divine plea, where before you had to balance Mp5/Crit to maximize mana efficiency now you just stack crit/int with as much haste as you can get.
I think this bears repeating.
bodhisattva wrote:
if you look at the Holy Pally from EU Method (first to get 3 drakes down) he has crit coming out the wang
And by the way, someone should tell him that they have an antibiotic for that now.
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
cynyck wrote:
bodhisattva wrote:
Mp5 is now the worst stat available for pallies thanks to Divine plea, where before you had to balance Mp5/Crit to maximize mana efficiency now you just stack crit/int with as much haste as you can get.
I think this bears repeating.
True, but it also must be remembered that mp5, especially on pre-raid gear, isn't actively /bad/ (like haste is for some classes/specs). It's just doubly suboptimal, in that it doesn't give any more regen, point for point, than int (thanks to DP, replenishment, etc) - much less the other benefits of int (SP, crit, etc), but eats up much more of the itemization budget. In fact, pre-heroic, I'd prefer it to haste since the other stats at that gear level don't support the int/crit synergy you get from raid-equivalent gear.
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