Losie,
Just starting to run some raids. Have done Naxx10, OS10/OS25. I haven't picked up much gear from them yet, but just curious as to a gear list from raids. I know there is not a large assortment of choices, but just wondering your thoughts on the raid/T7, etc.
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T7 gear is much better in relative quality than T4 gear was. T4 was nearly complete and utter garbage with the possible exception of the shoulders. T7 gear actually holds its own against the non-set pieces that are also available. Of course, the non-set pieces tend to win out head-to-head with Tier 7 but they can't give the nice set bonuses.
There's not a whole lot I can say about the raid gear that's available in a simple reply -- it would be a whole other section on its own. If there's anything specific you'd like to discuss by all means.
There's not a whole lot I can say about the raid gear that's available in a simple reply -- it would be a whole other section on its own. If there's anything specific you'd like to discuss by all means.
I'd also like to recommend you add the engineering trinket "Sonic Booster" to the list of trinkets.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40767
81 stamina each (turns out to be about 1000hp after talents) and...
Which has a very sensistive proc rate (generally the first few hits of every fight, minute internal CD I believe). Very nice for building aggro at the start of a fight
AND you can equip two of these. Which gives you about 2000hp more.
No defense rating, but some of the other trinkets listed didn't have defense on them either.
Not to mention if you get your engineering to the appropriate skill lever you can use these all the way through Northrend well before 80.
Edited, Mar 8th 2009 7:55pm by ekaterinodar
Also want to recommend "Tattered Castle Drape"
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37197
to the list of capes VERY nice stats
Competitive with the Wyrmrest cape. Not as much defense, but 42 block value is really nice...
Edited, Mar 8th 2009 7:57pm by ekaterinodar
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40767
81 stamina each (turns out to be about 1000hp after talents) and...
Quote:
The noise made from melee combat sometimes causes Sonic Awareness, increasing your attack power by 430 for 10 sec. This effect can only occur once every minute.
Which has a very sensistive proc rate (generally the first few hits of every fight, minute internal CD I believe). Very nice for building aggro at the start of a fight
AND you can equip two of these. Which gives you about 2000hp more.
No defense rating, but some of the other trinkets listed didn't have defense on them either.
Not to mention if you get your engineering to the appropriate skill lever you can use these all the way through Northrend well before 80.
Edited, Mar 8th 2009 7:55pm by ekaterinodar
Also want to recommend "Tattered Castle Drape"
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37197
to the list of capes VERY nice stats
Quote:
Tattered Castle Drape
Binds when equipped
Back
145 Armor
+42 Strength
+66 Stamina
Requires Level 80
Equip: Increases defense rating by 29 (5.9 @ L80).
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 42.
Binds when equipped
Back
145 Armor
+42 Strength
+66 Stamina
Requires Level 80
Equip: Increases defense rating by 29 (5.9 @ L80).
Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 42.
Competitive with the Wyrmrest cape. Not as much defense, but 42 block value is really nice...
Edited, Mar 8th 2009 7:57pm by ekaterinodar
1 post
Losie
first I'd like to thank you and the others who have contributed to this post, it has a wealth of information on tanking and much of it I never considered before. You've enlightened an old man to the wonders of defense ratings, avoidance, and damage mitigation. I came here to check out what I was missing about tanking when another player told me after a 25 man VOA that I wasn't geared well enough to do 10 man, I was slightly offended, so I decided to research, he was absolutely correct. I have taken the gearing advice on this thread and noticed a difference immediately. However while regearing I've noticed something that I found strange and thought you could enlighten me further. When I add a gem or enchant or even a piece of gear that adds to my defense rating the bonus listed on the item is not totally realized on my stats, ie. if I add an item that has +27 dr I may see an added 5 points on the defense rating shown on stat page. This is not as a result of replacing an item that already had def, but perhaps adding a gem or ench where none existed before.
Despite this I have raised my def rating to 505 so far and am having our guild JC make me the titanium earthguard set which should help some more. I'm still working on getting avoidance up but have reached about 80%, (our healer couldn't be happier about that). We've been test running our new pre-raid gear three manning heroic outlands dungeons and it seems to be performing admirably. Anyway thanks again for helping an old man understand his toon, and I look forward to seeing if you can shed any light on the def rating discrepancy.
first I'd like to thank you and the others who have contributed to this post, it has a wealth of information on tanking and much of it I never considered before. You've enlightened an old man to the wonders of defense ratings, avoidance, and damage mitigation. I came here to check out what I was missing about tanking when another player told me after a 25 man VOA that I wasn't geared well enough to do 10 man, I was slightly offended, so I decided to research, he was absolutely correct. I have taken the gearing advice on this thread and noticed a difference immediately. However while regearing I've noticed something that I found strange and thought you could enlighten me further. When I add a gem or enchant or even a piece of gear that adds to my defense rating the bonus listed on the item is not totally realized on my stats, ie. if I add an item that has +27 dr I may see an added 5 points on the defense rating shown on stat page. This is not as a result of replacing an item that already had def, but perhaps adding a gem or ench where none existed before.
Despite this I have raised my def rating to 505 so far and am having our guild JC make me the titanium earthguard set which should help some more. I'm still working on getting avoidance up but have reached about 80%, (our healer couldn't be happier about that). We've been test running our new pre-raid gear three manning heroic outlands dungeons and it seems to be performing admirably. Anyway thanks again for helping an old man understand his toon, and I look forward to seeing if you can shed any light on the def rating discrepancy.
It sounds like you're confusing Defense Rating with Defense Skill.
The stat that appears on gear is Defense Rating. Rating does nothing for you directly. What it DOES do is derrive into Defense Skill (which for a Paladin there's no way of getting directly without stacking Defense Rating).
At level 80, after your Defense Skill from levelling is maxed out you'd be sitting at 400. Since 540 is your goal, you require enough Rating to derive into 140 additional Defense Skill. At level 80, it takes about 4.92142857 Defense Rating to derive into 1 Defense Skill. It then takes about 689 Defense Rating to get you to a total of 540 Defense Skill.
The mechanics in place for all combat ratings are similar (though the numbers all vary and some are a little more complicated) in that the RATING itself gives you no benefit. It's the derrivative stat that matters. For example, Dodge%, Parry%, Expertise, Defense Skill, Hit% all do something for you directly -- Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, Expertise Rating, Defense Rating, and Hit Rating dont do anything directly except for INCREASE the first stats. There are more in addition to those examples as well.
The stat that appears on gear is Defense Rating. Rating does nothing for you directly. What it DOES do is derrive into Defense Skill (which for a Paladin there's no way of getting directly without stacking Defense Rating).
At level 80, after your Defense Skill from levelling is maxed out you'd be sitting at 400. Since 540 is your goal, you require enough Rating to derive into 140 additional Defense Skill. At level 80, it takes about 4.92142857 Defense Rating to derive into 1 Defense Skill. It then takes about 689 Defense Rating to get you to a total of 540 Defense Skill.
The mechanics in place for all combat ratings are similar (though the numbers all vary and some are a little more complicated) in that the RATING itself gives you no benefit. It's the derrivative stat that matters. For example, Dodge%, Parry%, Expertise, Defense Skill, Hit% all do something for you directly -- Dodge Rating, Parry Rating, Expertise Rating, Defense Rating, and Hit Rating dont do anything directly except for INCREASE the first stats. There are more in addition to those examples as well.
Quote:
Fingers
Tooga's Lost Toenail (BoE: World Drop)
Gal'darah's Signet (Gal'darah: Gundrak Drop)
Staunch Signet (Quest: Oculus)
Solid Platinum Band (Quest: Gundrak)
Titanium Earthguard Ring (Craftable BoE: Jewelcrafting)
Signet of the Accord (BoE: Sartharion)
Tooga's Lost Toenail (BoE: World Drop)
Gal'darah's Signet (Gal'darah: Gundrak Drop)
Staunch Signet (Quest: Oculus)
Solid Platinum Band (Quest: Gundrak)
Titanium Earthguard Ring (Craftable BoE: Jewelcrafting)
Signet of the Accord (BoE: Sartharion)
How does the Signet of Winter compare to these, especially the bottom two? There is one well under priced on my server right now and I'm tempted, although only level 30 at the moment, to buy it and set it aside. I'm sorry, I don't know how to do the fancy links so you can just see the items without loading another page!
The only thing I don't like about the Signet of Winter is it lacks Defense Rating. I personally have been just floating over the Defense cap most of the time raiding this expansion, and I still am using a +Defense trinket. I have seen people though that are 10-20 Defense Skill over the cap, without a +Defense trinket, in which a ring like this would be fantastic.
Generally items without Defense on them, particularly ones with armor, scream Druid item, but in a situation where you can afford to not have the Defense on your ring, this would be an amazing piece. If it's a reasonable price and you plan on taking this toon to 80 and tanking, I'd say go for it.
How you make a link, for future reference ;)
[link= (put the link in here, without any spaces and without the parenthesis) ] (type what you want the link to say here, again with no parenthesis) [/link]
Hopefully that's not too hard to understand :)
Generally items without Defense on them, particularly ones with armor, scream Druid item, but in a situation where you can afford to not have the Defense on your ring, this would be an amazing piece. If it's a reasonable price and you plan on taking this toon to 80 and tanking, I'd say go for it.
How you make a link, for future reference ;)
[link= (put the link in here, without any spaces and without the parenthesis) ] (type what you want the link to say here, again with no parenthesis) [/link]
Hopefully that's not too hard to understand :)
Quote:
Generally items without Defense on them, particularly ones with armor, scream Druid item, but in a situation where you can afford to not have the Defense on your ring, this would be an amazing piece. If it's a reasonable price and you plan on taking this toon to 80 and tanking, I'd say go for it.
Thanks for replying, much appreciated! I think I'll pass on Signet of Winter knowing what I know now. This will be my first tank and first 80 so I think I'll need to be stacking defence for a while. That and hopefully I can use the use the gold I save to make some smart moves on the AH!
(and really, that seems like a lot of work to link an item... so mad props to folks who take the trouble, especially when compiling a guide like this one!)
Please excuse the edits... err, linking took a "few" tries
Edited, May 14th 2009 11:27pm by PageCCCXI
PageCCCXI wrote:
(and really, that seems like a lot of work to link an item... so mad props to folks who take the trouble, especially when compiling a guide like this one!)
There's a few ways to do it. If you click the URL button it will bring up a box with which you ucan paste your item's url into. Once pressing okay just change the second link in it to whatever you want to pop (eg Signet of Winter).
Wow, I didn't even know about that button, lol. Apparently the person who taught me how to link like that didn't know about it either ;)
I always used to wonder how people had the poster's name in their quote until I came across a post where it was explained to someone else(hit reply on their post then click quote original). Before that I would always do it the long way copy pasting using the Quote button >_<
You learn something new everyday!
Edited, May 20th 2009 3:55pm by arthoriuss
You learn something new everyday!
Edited, May 20th 2009 3:55pm by arthoriuss
Maulgak wrote:
Generally items without Defense on them, particularly ones with armor, scream Druid item, but in a situation where you can afford to not have the Defense on your ring, this would be an amazing piece. If it's a reasonable price and you plan on taking this toon to 80 and tanking, I'd say go for it.
Maulgak, I think this is not correct anymore. A druid's armor bonus is no longer calculated over jewelry (neck, rings) and trinkets. So 500 armor on a trinket is the same 500 for druids as for paladins. And since the armor of druids tends to be higher, the relative value is actually higher for paladins, because of the diminishing returns on armor value.
And besides, the parry does not scream Druid either... I would say it is a specific Death Knight tanking ring that can also be put to pretty good use by warriors and paladins. /smile
You're right, they nerfed Druid's additional armor from items like that. My mistake :)
About the parry thing, that's why I put "generally" in there. I should have mentioned DKs as well, but I didn't. Still, additional armor is rather meh imo and I wouldn't take an item with additional armor over an item that had other stats that were higher, like strength or stamina. Additional armor is the last in line for me when prioritizing stats on tank gear.
About the parry thing, that's why I put "generally" in there. I should have mentioned DKs as well, but I didn't. Still, additional armor is rather meh imo and I wouldn't take an item with additional armor over an item that had other stats that were higher, like strength or stamina. Additional armor is the last in line for me when prioritizing stats on tank gear.
1 post
So i was wondering, do i need 540 def. for heroics too? If not then how much is neccessary?
Parkermanone wrote:
So i was wondering, do i need 540 def. for heroics too? If not then how much is neccessary?
535 is the number to hit for Heroics. Often times it's not mentioned though because you might as well just go get those other 5 points of Defense and be good for both Heroics and raids.
4 posts
OMG Losie, 1st of all thx for taking the time to create this post, just what I've been looking for.
Your last post hit the nail on the head for me as far as getting into raiding is concerned.
I am unable to link my gear at the moment as armoury is down for maintenance, but my pally tank's name is Doora (the explorer as of a few days ago :P ) on oceanic Dath'Remar. It seems that when trying to get into a Naxx 10 raid (I'm not in a raiding guild as have small 'private' guild with RL mates) the only thing people ever ask is "what's your unbuffed HP?". I've never been of the opinion that HP alone is what improves survival, but on this realm it seems to be the be all and end all. It frustrates the hell out of me. My stats (all unbuffed and without auras etc...) are as follows
*Bold blue stats are post gem change and edit*
HP 25.6k - 25.1k
Def 544 - 546
Armour 23.2k
Dodge 19.30% - 19.53%
Parry 16.08% - 16.52%
Block 12.59% - 12.67%
Expertise 11
Calculating avoidance/block as you outlined, this puts me at ~89.56%.
Due to the frustrating 'HP is the only thing that counts' attitude on my realm (generalisation I know, but its been the 100% raiding brick wall for me so far) I have done all I can to stack Stamina. Since reading your post however, once the realms are back up I intend resocketing pretty much all my gems (as my def will remain above 540 without any Def gems) for avoidance etc... This does however create a new problem for me. Although I see the great benefit of increasing avoidance over some stamina, the decrease in stamina is probably going to be even MORE detrimental to my getting into Naxx 10 on my realm. This is all despite completing Heroics each day and without any wipes.
In your opinion, am I ready to do Naxx 10 or am I really the noob tank I keep getting called and do I need better gear? I feel I'm more than ready as Naxx 10 is an entry level raid but meh.
Also what theat addon are you using to keep and eye on your threat?
As a closing statement I'd like to vent and point out that NO toon is born in epics and we all have to start out somewhere. I'm pretty sure that all the players now doing Ulduar 25 etc... started Naxx 10 in worse gear than I have now and they did just find. I guess it's a bit of tall poppy syndrome. The better the gear they have, the better gear they feel you need in order to open a can of baked beens without wiping.
P.S. What are deminishing returns and how do they work/affect tanking?
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:07pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:07pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:09pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:18pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:20pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:21pm by Armik
Your last post hit the nail on the head for me as far as getting into raiding is concerned.
Quote:
The point of the semi-rant is.. be very cautious with benchmarks. They really don't serve a good purpose in Wrath and people that go off spouting them to their guild as requirements or in Trade when PuGing people etc etc are full of it.
I am unable to link my gear at the moment as armoury is down for maintenance, but my pally tank's name is Doora (the explorer as of a few days ago :P ) on oceanic Dath'Remar. It seems that when trying to get into a Naxx 10 raid (I'm not in a raiding guild as have small 'private' guild with RL mates) the only thing people ever ask is "what's your unbuffed HP?". I've never been of the opinion that HP alone is what improves survival, but on this realm it seems to be the be all and end all. It frustrates the hell out of me. My stats (all unbuffed and without auras etc...) are as follows
*Bold blue stats are post gem change and edit*
HP 25.6k - 25.1k
Def 544 - 546
Armour 23.2k
Dodge 19.30% - 19.53%
Parry 16.08% - 16.52%
Block 12.59% - 12.67%
Expertise 11
Calculating avoidance/block as you outlined, this puts me at ~89.56%.
Due to the frustrating 'HP is the only thing that counts' attitude on my realm (generalisation I know, but its been the 100% raiding brick wall for me so far) I have done all I can to stack Stamina. Since reading your post however, once the realms are back up I intend resocketing pretty much all my gems (as my def will remain above 540 without any Def gems) for avoidance etc... This does however create a new problem for me. Although I see the great benefit of increasing avoidance over some stamina, the decrease in stamina is probably going to be even MORE detrimental to my getting into Naxx 10 on my realm. This is all despite completing Heroics each day and without any wipes.
In your opinion, am I ready to do Naxx 10 or am I really the noob tank I keep getting called and do I need better gear? I feel I'm more than ready as Naxx 10 is an entry level raid but meh.
Also what theat addon are you using to keep and eye on your threat?
As a closing statement I'd like to vent and point out that NO toon is born in epics and we all have to start out somewhere. I'm pretty sure that all the players now doing Ulduar 25 etc... started Naxx 10 in worse gear than I have now and they did just find. I guess it's a bit of tall poppy syndrome. The better the gear they have, the better gear they feel you need in order to open a can of baked beens without wiping.
P.S. What are deminishing returns and how do they work/affect tanking?
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:07pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:07pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 2:09pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:18pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:20pm by Armik
Edited, Jun 30th 2009 3:21pm by Armik
Well, I'm not Losie by any account :), but I hope you don't mind me stepping in here till Losie finds their way to this post.
I looked up your Armory and imo I would say you're fine for jumping into Naxx10. There are some things I would change around, but you do have almost all level 80 gear, some epics strewn about, and at least appear that you know what the hell you are doing (which is good, cause some people it's quite obvious by their gear, they don't, hehe).
You're right about your "closing statement", and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. For some odd reason, as people get better gear, which trivializes content, they then get higher expectations for people. I'm sure I had a smaller health pool than you (though not by much) when my guild started going into Naxx, and did perfectly fine.
One thing you can do either during or after Heroics you run, if it's going well and you get along with those in your group, ask around if any of their guilds would be interested in having you run Naxx with them. It won't be successful all the time, but I've come across people who would leap at the opportunity to PUG me, either because their guild is short on tanks, or maybe they're trying to put together an alt run and need some PUGs. Those who see you in action I'm sure would be far more willing to put aside any "requirements" they have for PUGs since they know what you can do.
As far as your other questions go, I'll leave the diminishing returns to Losie or another poster, cause I don't quite understand them myself ;)
Threat meter though: most people here suggest Omen, which is also what I use. Having said that, I haven't actually looked at Omen in months. Haven't needed to. Paladin threat generation right now is just crazy and really the only times I'm losing aggro are when DKs in DPS gear forget to jump out of Frost Presence, lol. If you're with people who really outgear you though, threat might be more of an issue, so it's good to keep one around just in case.
I looked up your Armory and imo I would say you're fine for jumping into Naxx10. There are some things I would change around, but you do have almost all level 80 gear, some epics strewn about, and at least appear that you know what the hell you are doing (which is good, cause some people it's quite obvious by their gear, they don't, hehe).
You're right about your "closing statement", and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. For some odd reason, as people get better gear, which trivializes content, they then get higher expectations for people. I'm sure I had a smaller health pool than you (though not by much) when my guild started going into Naxx, and did perfectly fine.
One thing you can do either during or after Heroics you run, if it's going well and you get along with those in your group, ask around if any of their guilds would be interested in having you run Naxx with them. It won't be successful all the time, but I've come across people who would leap at the opportunity to PUG me, either because their guild is short on tanks, or maybe they're trying to put together an alt run and need some PUGs. Those who see you in action I'm sure would be far more willing to put aside any "requirements" they have for PUGs since they know what you can do.
As far as your other questions go, I'll leave the diminishing returns to Losie or another poster, cause I don't quite understand them myself ;)
Threat meter though: most people here suggest Omen, which is also what I use. Having said that, I haven't actually looked at Omen in months. Haven't needed to. Paladin threat generation right now is just crazy and really the only times I'm losing aggro are when DKs in DPS gear forget to jump out of Frost Presence, lol. If you're with people who really outgear you though, threat might be more of an issue, so it's good to keep one around just in case.
4 posts
Awesome. Thanks for your input and I'll definately start asking around with peolpe I run heroics with. Thanks again for your help :)
Quote:
Maulgak, I think this is not correct anymore. A druid's armor bonus is no longer calculated over jewelry (neck, rings) and trinkets. So 500 armor on a trinket is the same 500 for druids as for paladins. And since the armor of druids tends to be higher, the relative value is actually higher for paladins, because of the diminishing returns on armor value.
Bolded for stupid.
The DR on armor is set up in such a way that 500 armor will always increase your TTL by the same relative amount. Specifically this means that even though druids (and DKs) have significantly more armor than pallies or warriors, the relative effect of 500 (or 5000) armor is exactly the same. So if you're using that argument to justify taking that 1000 armor trinket off his hands, you had better hope he hasn't read up on the subject.
Awesome guide! The gear/enchant breakdown for heroic hopefuls was especially useful to me. My only suggestion would be to include some information regarding glyph selection. I know that this info is available in other posts, but this post is so well done and a discussion of glyphs would only improve it!
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