Yea.. it's very intuitive.. even if you aren't thinking about it, literally just keep hitting spells so that you're always casting something and you'll find that you're alternating 9 second and 6 second abilities.
Every full rotation has a space GCD for whatever you want to throw in. And as you noticed 1/2 Imp. Judgements is important for keeping the rotations in sync. If you wait 10 seconds on the Judgement you'll either have to stall the rotation every time (if you're a strict rotation user) or you'll have to skip judgements (which is what I'd probably do.. I'm very flexible with rotations).
One thing I'm strict on though is that I will *never* hold up the rotation waiting to judge before I hit shield. The DPS/TPS loss of waiting so that shield comes in with the libram EVERY time is far more than the libram brings. Further, it increases the chance that Holy Shield will fall off. Yes, sometimes the libram just wont be up when it comes time to shield. Yes, I'll shield anyway. I *may* consider skipping a judgement and plugging it in in front of a shield to make sure it's up, but that means delaying Consecrate (I won't delay HS).
Really, the losses of trying to tailor your rotation to allow libram procs for every shield slam are just too great to justify it.
Really, just make sure you're not waiting on cooldowns when the GCD is up. If you're able to cast something every time the GCD is up, you're set.
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Losie wrote:
One thing I'm strict on though is that I will *never* hold up the rotation waiting to judge before I hit shield. The DPS/TPS loss of waiting so that shield comes in with the libram EVERY time is far more than the libram brings. Further, it increases the chance that Holy Shield will fall off. Yes, sometimes the libram just wont be up when it comes time to shield. Yes, I'll shield anyway. I *may* consider skipping a judgement and plugging it in in front of a shield to make sure it's up, but that means delaying Consecrate (I won't delay HS).
That's how I normally work it now. If I've got cooldowns available so that I can continue to build threat while my Judgement cooldown syncs with SoR, I use those. If not, I'll use SoR just to keep threat progressing and it usually syncs with my judgement cooldown the next time around.
Quote:
Really, just make sure you're not waiting on cooldowns when the GCD is up. If you're able to cast something every time the GCD is up, you're set.
I'm finding with the 1/2 in Imp. Judgements, managing cooldowns is a lot easier. There's nothing more frustrating than mashing every button in your rotation and all you hear is, "Not ready yet." The only thing worse is hearing, "Not enough mana." :P
Losie wrote:
Yea.. it's very intuitive.. even if you aren't thinking about it, literally just keep hitting spells so that you're always casting something and you'll find that you're alternating 9 second and 6 second abilities.
Every full rotation has a space GCD for whatever you want to throw in. And as you noticed 1/2 Imp. Judgements is important for keeping the rotations in sync. If you wait 10 seconds on the Judgement you'll either have to stall the rotation every time (if you're a strict rotation user) or you'll have to skip judgements (which is what I'd probably do.. I'm very flexible with rotations).
One thing I'm strict on though is that I will *never* hold up the rotation waiting to judge before I hit shield. The DPS/TPS loss of waiting so that shield comes in with the libram EVERY time is far more than the libram brings. Further, it increases the chance that Holy Shield will fall off. Yes, sometimes the libram just wont be up when it comes time to shield. Yes, I'll shield anyway. I *may* consider skipping a judgement and plugging it in in front of a shield to make sure it's up, but that means delaying Consecrate (I won't delay HS).
Really, the losses of trying to tailor your rotation to allow libram procs for every shield slam are just too great to justify it.
Really, just make sure you're not waiting on cooldowns when the GCD is up. If you're able to cast something every time the GCD is up, you're set.
Every full rotation has a space GCD for whatever you want to throw in. And as you noticed 1/2 Imp. Judgements is important for keeping the rotations in sync. If you wait 10 seconds on the Judgement you'll either have to stall the rotation every time (if you're a strict rotation user) or you'll have to skip judgements (which is what I'd probably do.. I'm very flexible with rotations).
One thing I'm strict on though is that I will *never* hold up the rotation waiting to judge before I hit shield. The DPS/TPS loss of waiting so that shield comes in with the libram EVERY time is far more than the libram brings. Further, it increases the chance that Holy Shield will fall off. Yes, sometimes the libram just wont be up when it comes time to shield. Yes, I'll shield anyway. I *may* consider skipping a judgement and plugging it in in front of a shield to make sure it's up, but that means delaying Consecrate (I won't delay HS).
Really, the losses of trying to tailor your rotation to allow libram procs for every shield slam are just too great to justify it.
Really, just make sure you're not waiting on cooldowns when the GCD is up. If you're able to cast something every time the GCD is up, you're set.
I have done a lot more heroics recently, and I agree that waiting for cooldowns to arrange it so you shield slam right after a judgement isn't always practical. The extra block value from the Libram is nice, but I agree that if SoR is up, just use it.
My gear probably isn't as good as Losie's, but I did get a 9600 SoR crit in a heroic with the libram active and Lavanthor's Talisman active at the same time (+792 block value if the libram and the trinket are active simultaneously). I also have a crapton of block value on my gear in general, so with full raid buffs I could see 11,000 as a strong possibility for an SoR crit. It would be fun to get into a BG and hit someone in the face with that while fully raid buffed as a Prot... even with no resil, I think PvP as a Prot would be much more pleasant now... I may have to try it and see if it actually is reasonable to PvP in Prot spec now.
I do have a question to add here... mostly due to sheer accident, my gear currently has a ton of block value and a ton of expertise on it but no hit rating: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Emerald+Dream&n=Arthang
Any suggestions as to what to go for from dungeons/heroics/rep that might help with this? 0 hit rating and 23 expertise seems a bit out of whack (but I sure as heck don't get dodged or parried ever!) I won't even be starting Naxx until at least Sunday, so hopefully I have some time to balance that out a bit.
Edited, Dec 22nd 2008 3:01pm by jeromesimina
Edited, Dec 22nd 2008 3:02pm by jeromesimina
don't know if anyone has addressed this but conviction does NOT produce more threat or DPS than seals of the pure.
Neither one produces a great amount of threat or DPS (about 1% of your total or less), but it looks like Seals of the Pure is getting buffed in the upcoming patch (3.0.8). Since SotP is getting buffed, 5 points in holy is going to certainly be better than enough points in the Ret tree to get conviction.
Seals of the Pure generates slightly more TPS and DPS than Conviction. Each one gives less than a 1% increase per point. I seem to recall mentioning at least twice up there that Seals of the Pure generated more but that neither of them are a really big deal.
EDIT: Although on closer inspection I don't know why I had the Conviction blurb saying it generated more TPS/DPS -- it's been corrected. Incidentally, the Seals of the Pure blurb was right all along though. Thanks.
Edited, Dec 22nd 2008 4:42pm by Losie
EDIT: Although on closer inspection I don't know why I had the Conviction blurb saying it generated more TPS/DPS -- it's been corrected. Incidentally, the Seals of the Pure blurb was right all along though. Thanks.
Edited, Dec 22nd 2008 4:42pm by Losie
Quote:
Any suggestions as to what to go for from dungeons/heroics/rep that might help with this? 0 hit rating and 23 expertise seems a bit out of whack (but I sure as heck don't get dodged or parried ever!) I won't even be starting Naxx until at least Sunday, so hopefully I have some time to balance that out a bit.
The Cloak of Peaceful Resolutions might help. It's a cross-grade to what you have now that drops the Block Value (and a minor bit of armor/stamina/str) in favor of more Defense and Hit Rating
The Red Sword of Courage from Heroic Pinnacle would add hit at the expense of Expertise, and is a superior weapon in general.
The Royal Crest of Lordaeron from Heroic Stratholme adds a good chunk of hit at a modest loss of Defense.
Bolstered Legplates from Heroic VH are an excellent piece and have a big chunk of hit on them in addition to a TON of Defense.
The last three I would suggest looking into.. maybe not the shield if you just can't find a way to get the Defense worked out (or to justify the titansteel investment being replaced :D) And if you're really desperate for it you can always consider dropping an enchant on Hit or a Weapon Chain. The main reason I suggest the epics is because they're upgrades in general, not only for adding hit. It shouldn't be too big of a deal, especially if you have the Glyph of Righteous Defense.
Thanks Losie. I have the cloak of Peaceful Resolutions and I do swap to it on occasion when I think I might need a bit of hit rating. I love the extra block value on the cloak that I usually wear though (the Tattered Castle Drape). I have become a bit of a block value ***** since the introduction of SoR. (I too am after that elusive 11,000 shield crit.. hehe)
As far as the sword from H UP and the legs from H VH, I would like both of those, but I haven't finished H UP yet (haven't tried it in a while, but my gear was much worse last time I was there so I should probably try again), and I haven't had the legs drop in H VH yet. Will try a few more times before my Naxx run and see if I can get one or both of those.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 3:39pm by jeromesimina
As far as the sword from H UP and the legs from H VH, I would like both of those, but I haven't finished H UP yet (haven't tried it in a while, but my gear was much worse last time I was there so I should probably try again), and I haven't had the legs drop in H VH yet. Will try a few more times before my Naxx run and see if I can get one or both of those.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 3:39pm by jeromesimina
The VH legs are a matter of luck. The Pinnacle sword is annoying as #$(* to get though.. depending on the group you go with.
Skadi seems to rip apart lots of groups for some reason. Generally the caliber of the healer and the ability of the tank to make the healer's job easier (particularly in the first chunk where there are still TONS of adds up) are the deciding factors. And I don't mean their +healing/mp5/etc. A healer that knows how to avoid environmental hazzards and keep group-damage under control can basically keep a group fighting on the gauntlet forever (with the insane mp5 that many of them, especially trees, have it's not far from the truth) so you can almost afford idiots that can't harpoon worth a damn with a healer who knows the fight well.
Skadi seems to rip apart lots of groups for some reason. Generally the caliber of the healer and the ability of the tank to make the healer's job easier (particularly in the first chunk where there are still TONS of adds up) are the deciding factors. And I don't mean their +healing/mp5/etc. A healer that knows how to avoid environmental hazzards and keep group-damage under control can basically keep a group fighting on the gauntlet forever (with the insane mp5 that many of them, especially trees, have it's not far from the truth) so you can almost afford idiots that can't harpoon worth a damn with a healer who knows the fight well.
As far as the previous post about h-up, I did it yesterday and the way we did it that seemed to work well is to have the group stand in the hall before the gauntlet and have someone start the gauntlet, then when the bosss despawns just run to the other side of the gauntlet and then have someone run back and start the event. Made it a lot easier for me, even though we wiped about 10 times on the boss it was mainly due to stupid things, for example we wiped twice because me(the healer) and our main DPS weren't ready(drinking or just AFK), and also a few due to the DPS DCing during the fight and getting owned by the WW. But other than that if you have a group who at least knows the strat I find the gauntlet a fairly easy fight(H-gundrak however is a totally diff story).
A bit off topic but I was reading the posts in the sticky because im thinking about picking up my pally again to make him a tank( always wanted a pally tank).
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 9:43pm by ghostpudding
A bit off topic but I was reading the posts in the sticky because im thinking about picking up my pally again to make him a tank( always wanted a pally tank).
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 9:43pm by ghostpudding
Whenever we bring a PuG DPSer along with us (the people I run with aren't ALWAYS on all the time.. geez, none of us live WoW) they ALWAYS want to use the despawn exploit on Skadi. I'm not fond of using exploits first, and you certainly shouldn't count on it lasting any longer than a patch or two but it might help.
Really though, if you have someone who isn't an idiot tank (and we're supposed to be the tank, right?) the "gauntlet" part of it is easy. Never take the whole thing in one big pull. Simple. Easiest thing to do is grab the first group of runners with Holy Wrath, and lay down a Consecration ontop of the first static pair, tank them until they're dead, then move on to the rest. Total control.
I suppose the exploit could be useful for the achievement. The only way I can figure out how to get that is to grab all 6 harpoons and then wipe, rez at the end and restart it -- harpooning him down in the first pass. You have to get him down in his first approach -- and I can only run as far as the first pack of adds before he makes his first approach, let alone the launchers.
EDIT: I also added a small subsection on how to calculate your avoidence in the Block Capping section.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 9:37pm by Losie
Really though, if you have someone who isn't an idiot tank (and we're supposed to be the tank, right?) the "gauntlet" part of it is easy. Never take the whole thing in one big pull. Simple. Easiest thing to do is grab the first group of runners with Holy Wrath, and lay down a Consecration ontop of the first static pair, tank them until they're dead, then move on to the rest. Total control.
I suppose the exploit could be useful for the achievement. The only way I can figure out how to get that is to grab all 6 harpoons and then wipe, rez at the end and restart it -- harpooning him down in the first pass. You have to get him down in his first approach -- and I can only run as far as the first pack of adds before he makes his first approach, let alone the launchers.
EDIT: I also added a small subsection on how to calculate your avoidence in the Block Capping section.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2008 9:37pm by Losie
Losie wrote:
I suppose the exploit could be useful for the achievement. The only way I can figure out how to get that is to grab all 6 harpoons and then wipe, rez at the end and restart it -- harpooning him down in the first pass. You have to get him down in his first approach -- and I can only run as far as the first pack of adds before he makes his first approach, let alone the launchers.
I could be mistaken, but I believe the achievement is to get him down in one pass, regardless of how many passes he's made before that. In other words, you wait until the group has six harpoons, then wait for his next pass and get him down before he goes out of range again. The other achievement is to get him down within 3 minutes of starting the gauntlet event, which I'd say pretty much requires the gauntlet reset exploit at this time. You would basically have to pull all of the adds to the harpoon guns, tank them there, focus fire the harpooners, nab harpoons, bring Skadi down, and then kill him. Would require a fair bit more in terms of gear than appears to be available right now, or at the very least, a full or near full T7.5 geared group that functioned well together.
I dislike using the reset exploit. It creates as many problems as it solves. The main benefit of using the exploit is that you don't have to worry about the frost aura on the ground until you go out to use the harpoon guns (and even then it's not hard to time it so that you avoid it.) The drawback is that you get most of the harpooners running out of the room and around the corner. Not only do they have the delightful ability to pewpew you through the wall, but you can't get harpoons to bring down Skadi if all the harpooners run away. In order to kill them, you have to forgo the safety of the room and risk getting caught in the frost aura anyways.
I've tried the reset method a few times, but the group was phail anyways and it didn't matter whether it was the "proper" method or the reset method...if we got Skadi onto the ground, he wiped us seconds later anyways. It's not a particularly difficult encounter, but people can't resist the urge to "stand in the fire", as it were. Rather irritating.
Just wondering but what Health should we be sitting at. Last night i Was doing The For the Horde! achievment...(failed in IF tho thats all i need now)....And i got to 26k health when i was buffed without food or pots. Keep in mind im only lvl 78. I would OT whatever i could pull. Anyways i Stray. Our MT had 34k health. Is this gonna be the norm? i mean i just broke 20k health self buffed and now i gotta get 10k+ more? Holy crap!
At level 80 sitting at Naxx-readiness without actually entering Naxx yet I'd call 23k the minimum for 10 man. For 25 man it'd be safer if the BARE minimum was 24k (since it's possible to eat a Patchwerk Hateful Strike for 23k if your armor isn't all there or if you're one of those people who takes Kings before Sanctuary). Even with those numbers, don't expect to be clearing it unless the group is full of very good, skilled players.
The fact remains that it's very easy at 80 with rep/craftable/minor instance drops to get to 25k HP while still Defense Capped. That would be a nice comfortable place to start. All of this is unbuffed of course.
I'm not entirely sure I understand the numbers you gave. Does your MT have 34k totally unbuffed? A Warrior or Paladin with 34k unbuffed right now fails epicly for neglecting everything else but Stamina. A DK with 34k unbuffed is sitting a *little* high, but not so much that they'd have to sacrifice all their avoidence. A Druid with 34k is just regular day to day business. Of course, fully raid buffed 34k isn't crazy at all. I'm sitting just over 28k in the gear I usually use (I have a higher pure-avoidence set as well) and fully raid-buffed that's WELL over 34k HP
The fact remains that it's very easy at 80 with rep/craftable/minor instance drops to get to 25k HP while still Defense Capped. That would be a nice comfortable place to start. All of this is unbuffed of course.
I'm not entirely sure I understand the numbers you gave. Does your MT have 34k totally unbuffed? A Warrior or Paladin with 34k unbuffed right now fails epicly for neglecting everything else but Stamina. A DK with 34k unbuffed is sitting a *little* high, but not so much that they'd have to sacrifice all their avoidence. A Druid with 34k is just regular day to day business. Of course, fully raid buffed 34k isn't crazy at all. I'm sitting just over 28k in the gear I usually use (I have a higher pure-avoidence set as well) and fully raid-buffed that's WELL over 34k HP
First off, thank you Losie for an informative and detailed set of posts. I've just dinged 80 on Sunday night and I'm working hard to get to 540 Defense so I can be a credible Tankadin.
I have a question, and perhaps I'm simply reading what you've written incorrectly or misinterpreting your intent. But here:
My bolds for emphasis. I think I know how this works mechanically, and after the pre-Wrath patch I replaced my Crystalforged Sword with the Horseman's Blade. Which has since been replaced twice over, and I really miss the fun of launching out those pumpkins to blast my foes. But it looks as though you start off by saying that the most important stats are AP and Spell Damage (Power?), and that Spell Damage (Power?) is slightly better, but then you finish off by saying that STR is the most important stat, even though it wasn't listed in the list of the two "most important threat stats" (I'm aware that 2xSTR = AP) and that Spell Power isn't a good stat at all for Paladins. A bit roundabout and confusing.
As I've leveled I've tried to focus on putting together a decent tanking set, but I'm still about 20 Defense shy of 540. I'd found that a lot of my pre-wrath gear lasted a very long time, as it was easy to find a piece of plate with better Armor by far and more DR, but little or no other mitigation or avoidance stats. But once at 80th there are a lot of crafted options which do surpass the pre-Wrath gear. An example of this is the Sunward Crest, which I only found an all around better replacement for once I bought the Titansteel Shield Wall. I've had no issues at all tanking any Wrath Instance to date (except for the time the DK DPS 3 levels above me was in Frost for the whole run and no one could figure out why he kept pulling aggro from me every pull. I don't have a DK and decided I needed to learn their mechanics after that...), is getting to 540 an absolute prerequisite for running Heroics? Ore are there some Heroics which are easier than others, and more forgiving of a lesser geared tank?
Edit: Item links
Edited, Jan 20th 2009 10:24am by Kompera
I have a question, and perhaps I'm simply reading what you've written incorrectly or misinterpreting your intent. But here:
Losie wrote:
Stats
Stats that increase the power of your abilities are the most important threat stats. These are Spell Damage and Attack Power. Each contributes a varying portion of itself to different abilities, and overall Spell Damage has a slightly greater impact. For a Paladin, Stamina indirectly increases your Spell Power so it can be treated as a minor threat stat as well. Rather than seeing Stamina as a threat stat, think of it more as an equalizer that keeps our threat potential on par with other tanking classes at various gearing levels. Strength is far more important. Strength increases our Attack Power and our Block Value. It is then a useful threat stat as well as a mitigation stat. Further, since Shield of Righteousness is based off of our Block Value, Strength increases threat generation in multiple ways.
It is then prudent, when given the choice, between Strength and Attack Power, to give favor to Strength unless the Attack Power gained is significantly more than twice the Strength that you could have gained. Spell Power can be entirely neglected. Though it offers more than Attack Power on a 1:1 ratio, Strength is far more valuable, so why even bother? Paladin tanks no longer want, nor need, Spell Power (beyond what is given through Stamina).
Stats that increase the power of your abilities are the most important threat stats. These are Spell Damage and Attack Power. Each contributes a varying portion of itself to different abilities, and overall Spell Damage has a slightly greater impact. For a Paladin, Stamina indirectly increases your Spell Power so it can be treated as a minor threat stat as well. Rather than seeing Stamina as a threat stat, think of it more as an equalizer that keeps our threat potential on par with other tanking classes at various gearing levels. Strength is far more important. Strength increases our Attack Power and our Block Value. It is then a useful threat stat as well as a mitigation stat. Further, since Shield of Righteousness is based off of our Block Value, Strength increases threat generation in multiple ways.
It is then prudent, when given the choice, between Strength and Attack Power, to give favor to Strength unless the Attack Power gained is significantly more than twice the Strength that you could have gained. Spell Power can be entirely neglected. Though it offers more than Attack Power on a 1:1 ratio, Strength is far more valuable, so why even bother? Paladin tanks no longer want, nor need, Spell Power (beyond what is given through Stamina).
My bolds for emphasis. I think I know how this works mechanically, and after the pre-Wrath patch I replaced my Crystalforged Sword with the Horseman's Blade. Which has since been replaced twice over, and I really miss the fun of launching out those pumpkins to blast my foes. But it looks as though you start off by saying that the most important stats are AP and Spell Damage (Power?), and that Spell Damage (Power?) is slightly better, but then you finish off by saying that STR is the most important stat, even though it wasn't listed in the list of the two "most important threat stats" (I'm aware that 2xSTR = AP) and that Spell Power isn't a good stat at all for Paladins. A bit roundabout and confusing.
As I've leveled I've tried to focus on putting together a decent tanking set, but I'm still about 20 Defense shy of 540. I'd found that a lot of my pre-wrath gear lasted a very long time, as it was easy to find a piece of plate with better Armor by far and more DR, but little or no other mitigation or avoidance stats. But once at 80th there are a lot of crafted options which do surpass the pre-Wrath gear. An example of this is the Sunward Crest, which I only found an all around better replacement for once I bought the Titansteel Shield Wall. I've had no issues at all tanking any Wrath Instance to date (except for the time the DK DPS 3 levels above me was in Frost for the whole run and no one could figure out why he kept pulling aggro from me every pull. I don't have a DK and decided I needed to learn their mechanics after that...), is getting to 540 an absolute prerequisite for running Heroics? Ore are there some Heroics which are easier than others, and more forgiving of a lesser geared tank?
Edit: Item links
Edited, Jan 20th 2009 10:24am by Kompera
Well, I'm not Losie, but thought I'd give my opinion in the meantime :)
Firstly, yea that text does seem a bit confusing. I hadn't really paid much thought to it at first, but it reads like BC tanking then Wrath tanking kinda mushed together. I think the intent was spot on, it just didn't get worded exactly right. Maybe Losie'll reword this ;) hehe
As for tanking Heroics: it's 535 defense needed to be uncrit for Heroics, not 540. That's the raid uncrit mark. As far as whether it's a must reach number before trying any or not, let me just say taht I wouldn't personally go with any tank that wasn't at 535 or higher. It's too much of a strain on teh healer to keep them alive, and the DPS to make sure they can kill stuff even faster. You could probably get away with it if you had a very geared healer and/or used as much CC as possible, but really the best thing you can do is to make sure you get to that 535 mark.
Kinda wish you had a link to your Armory, but I wonder, have you looked at the Tempered Titansteel items? They aren't necessarily the best tanking items, but they do offer a ton of defense and are a good way to tide you over until you can reach some of the better items. Also I am finding that I have to enchant for defense whenever I can and use many gems with defense on them. I haven't been lucky enough to get that +defense trinket from HoL yet, so staying above 540 defense is a real struggle for me atm. Just keep at it though, you'll get there :)
Firstly, yea that text does seem a bit confusing. I hadn't really paid much thought to it at first, but it reads like BC tanking then Wrath tanking kinda mushed together. I think the intent was spot on, it just didn't get worded exactly right. Maybe Losie'll reword this ;) hehe
As for tanking Heroics: it's 535 defense needed to be uncrit for Heroics, not 540. That's the raid uncrit mark. As far as whether it's a must reach number before trying any or not, let me just say taht I wouldn't personally go with any tank that wasn't at 535 or higher. It's too much of a strain on teh healer to keep them alive, and the DPS to make sure they can kill stuff even faster. You could probably get away with it if you had a very geared healer and/or used as much CC as possible, but really the best thing you can do is to make sure you get to that 535 mark.
Kinda wish you had a link to your Armory, but I wonder, have you looked at the Tempered Titansteel items? They aren't necessarily the best tanking items, but they do offer a ton of defense and are a good way to tide you over until you can reach some of the better items. Also I am finding that I have to enchant for defense whenever I can and use many gems with defense on them. I haven't been lucky enough to get that +defense trinket from HoL yet, so staying above 540 defense is a real struggle for me atm. Just keep at it though, you'll get there :)
Maulgak wrote:
[snipped]
As for tanking Heroics: it's 535 defense needed to be uncrit for Heroics, not 540. That's the raid uncrit mark. As far as whether it's a must reach number before trying any or not, let me just say taht I wouldn't personally go with any tank that wasn't at 535 or higher. It's too much of a strain on teh healer to keep them alive, and the DPS to make sure they can kill stuff even faster. You could probably get away with it if you had a very geared healer and/or used as much CC as possible, but really the best thing you can do is to make sure you get to that 535 mark.
Kinda wish you had a link to your Armory, but I wonder, have you looked at the Tempered Titansteel items? They aren't necessarily the best tanking items, but they do offer a ton of defense and are a good way to tide you over until you can reach some of the better items. Also I am finding that I have to enchant for defense whenever I can and use many gems with defense on them. I haven't been lucky enough to get that +defense trinket from HoL yet, so staying above 540 defense is a real struggle for me atm. Just keep at it though, you'll get there :)
As for tanking Heroics: it's 535 defense needed to be uncrit for Heroics, not 540. That's the raid uncrit mark. As far as whether it's a must reach number before trying any or not, let me just say taht I wouldn't personally go with any tank that wasn't at 535 or higher. It's too much of a strain on teh healer to keep them alive, and the DPS to make sure they can kill stuff even faster. You could probably get away with it if you had a very geared healer and/or used as much CC as possible, but really the best thing you can do is to make sure you get to that 535 mark.
Kinda wish you had a link to your Armory, but I wonder, have you looked at the Tempered Titansteel items? They aren't necessarily the best tanking items, but they do offer a ton of defense and are a good way to tide you over until you can reach some of the better items. Also I am finding that I have to enchant for defense whenever I can and use many gems with defense on them. I haven't been lucky enough to get that +defense trinket from HoL yet, so staying above 540 defense is a real struggle for me atm. Just keep at it though, you'll get there :)
I've had a day to chase down crafters and enchanters and such. I'm now at 547 DEF, with 20 Resiliance (not that that Resi is huge. It comes from the SSO helm augment which I think deserves honorable mention in this thread rather than punting to a Borean Armor Kit as a fall back helm augment.)
I'd have linked with my OP but the servers were down for maint... Sanguinia Is my character link. Yeah, I thought I was being clever with the name, not realizing that thousands of people realized that sanguine means blood. I've got a couple of gems and a boot enchant missing because I've recently (today!) upgraded a few items. I'd appreciate any tips on gems as well as the boot enchant. I've got no weapon augment as I hope to upgrade it soon to one of the ones listed in this thread. In a vacuum I'm going to go with Tuskarr's Vitality for the boot enchant, and gem the belt and neck with STA is nothing else seems pressing. My plans for JC tokens are the Titanium Earthguard Ring, I have a guildy who has that combine and it'll just cost me the Dragon's Eye as far as tokens goes. I'd probably use JC tokens to gem the neck with a Dragon's Eye STA gem if I didn't need to conserve them for the ring. But in 10 days or so I'll have enough JC tokens for all of my needs.
Glyphs are:
Major :Spiritual Atunement, Righteous Defense, Judgement
Minor: Wise, LOH, <open> (thinking maybe the Sense Undead)
Any critique of my build will be taken seriously, and appreciated.
Let me first begin by explaining my wording.
Assuming an average rotation, 1SP will generate more threat for you than 1AP. Attack Power is LESS POWERFUL (nearly negligibly, and in some rotation/conditions it's actually MORE powerful) than Spell Power (which is exactly what I said). At the same time, Spell Power is LESS desireable than Attack Power. Just because it has negligibly more effect than AP doesn't mean that we want it. I can't deny the fact that it does contribute a great deal to threat though.
The reason we don't want/need Spell Power on items is because we have a talent that generates all of the Spell Power that we need from Stamina. Which I also mentioned :D
I'll look into a way of rewording it so that it is clear that I mean that Spell Power gives you more, but is less desireable than AP.
Also -- There is no such thing as Spell Damage anymore. This was a TBC mechanic that was replaced before TBC even ended. Spell Damage has been replaced by Spell Power which is effectively the same for a Paladin tank.
Otherwise you seem to be on the right direction with your questions :D I've been away a couple of days taking care of a pile-up of paperwork.
And -- I was the GM of a guild called Sanguine once, in the game Dark Ages. Awesomeness. If I were to remake my WoW guild today, I'd definitly use that name. So much more to it than blood.
Assuming an average rotation, 1SP will generate more threat for you than 1AP. Attack Power is LESS POWERFUL (nearly negligibly, and in some rotation/conditions it's actually MORE powerful) than Spell Power (which is exactly what I said). At the same time, Spell Power is LESS desireable than Attack Power. Just because it has negligibly more effect than AP doesn't mean that we want it. I can't deny the fact that it does contribute a great deal to threat though.
The reason we don't want/need Spell Power on items is because we have a talent that generates all of the Spell Power that we need from Stamina. Which I also mentioned :D
I'll look into a way of rewording it so that it is clear that I mean that Spell Power gives you more, but is less desireable than AP.
Also -- There is no such thing as Spell Damage anymore. This was a TBC mechanic that was replaced before TBC even ended. Spell Damage has been replaced by Spell Power which is effectively the same for a Paladin tank.
Otherwise you seem to be on the right direction with your questions :D I've been away a couple of days taking care of a pile-up of paperwork.
And -- I was the GM of a guild called Sanguine once, in the game Dark Ages. Awesomeness. If I were to remake my WoW guild today, I'd definitly use that name. So much more to it than blood.
Losie wrote:
Also -- There is no such thing as Spell Damage anymore. This was a TBC mechanic that was replaced before TBC even ended. Spell Damage has been replaced by Spell Power which is effectively the same for a Paladin tank.
Well, yeah. That's another thing that was kinda throwing me off reading your OP. You used Spell Damage, not me, look at my bolds again. :)
Losie wrote:
And -- I was the GM of a guild called Sanguine once, in the game Dark Ages. Awesomeness. If I were to remake my WoW guild today, I'd definitly use that name. So much more to it than blood.
:D Thanks -- I'm going to be going over everything again within the next couple of days to account for patch changes -- I'll make other changes then too.
I've updated to reflect the patch changes from 3.0.8 and to clarify a few phrasing issues.
I've also updated the talents section to reflect some more modern views on talent choices. While the general idea is more-or-less the same, it may help people more accuratly judge what value certain talents will bring to them.
I'd like to add a short section on Glyphs in the near future, as well as a "Gear Progression" section that gives options for gear beyond the Pre-Raid point, especially since it's so incredibly easy to obtain Pre-Raid gear now.
I've also updated the talents section to reflect some more modern views on talent choices. While the general idea is more-or-less the same, it may help people more accuratly judge what value certain talents will bring to them.
I'd like to add a short section on Glyphs in the near future, as well as a "Gear Progression" section that gives options for gear beyond the Pre-Raid point, especially since it's so incredibly easy to obtain Pre-Raid gear now.
Firstly congrats on another great tanking thread. Well done. Just a few things I'd like to mention.
Firstly there is a new stam enchant for bracers which although expensive may be of benefit to tanks that are worried about there health pool.
Secondly could you pop in a base stats for starting heroics/raids? I know being crit immune is a given but a couple of prospective tanks that I have linked to here are confused at what to aim for (hp/avoidance), when looking to tank their first few heroics. Maybe something similar to YJmark's heroic/raid benchmark for holy pallies.
Firstly there is a new stam enchant for bracers which although expensive may be of benefit to tanks that are worried about there health pool.
Secondly could you pop in a base stats for starting heroics/raids? I know being crit immune is a given but a couple of prospective tanks that I have linked to here are confused at what to aim for (hp/avoidance), when looking to tank their first few heroics. Maybe something similar to YJmark's heroic/raid benchmark for holy pallies.
I actually thought I had included the Wrist enchant, I know I included the Titanium Plating. Thanks, I'll add it in shortly. Benchmarks in Wrath are kind of hard to give because they really don't matter nearly as much as they did in TBC. The only strict one is crit immunity, and even then lazy people going pushing things before they're ready.
As far as HP, avoidence, and armor is concerned -- there's SO much HP going around that you can steamroll content with a rather miniscule 22k (which you will likely have WELL over by the time you're crit immune) and avoidence doesn't really matter that much for getting into heroics. No fights last long enough to drive healers OOM -- and I'm sorry, but if they're too lazy to drink between the occasional pulls then there's a problem.
Now -- with all of that said. That's a bad attitude to have that won't get anyone very far beyond *just* inside the door of Heroics and Naxx. Obviously the requirements for achievements and for speeding up runs to breakneck speeds are MUCH higher. Furthermore, the requirements will be much higher depending on the skill of the people. Remember TBC? Both new and relatively poor longer-time players were suddenly given access to nearly full sets of T5/T6 quality gear and what did they do with it? Finally clear Kara like they always wanted to. And then all of a sudden, the benchmark requirements for getting into Kara turned into the requirements that you EXPECTED to get into Hyjal just a couple months earlier. Completely unrealistic. People complain that elitists demand a super-high level of gear that it far beyond what is actually neccessary. No -- elitists demand a super-high level of performance and understand that, in Wrath especially, it DOESNT take all that much gear to put up major numbers and to survive in intense situations.
The point of the semi-rant is.. be very cautious with benchmarks. They really don't serve a good purpose in Wrath and people that go off spouting them to their guild as requirements or in Trade when PuGing people etc etc are full of it.
Edited, Feb 16th 2009 1:29pm by Losie
As far as HP, avoidence, and armor is concerned -- there's SO much HP going around that you can steamroll content with a rather miniscule 22k (which you will likely have WELL over by the time you're crit immune) and avoidence doesn't really matter that much for getting into heroics. No fights last long enough to drive healers OOM -- and I'm sorry, but if they're too lazy to drink between the occasional pulls then there's a problem.
Now -- with all of that said. That's a bad attitude to have that won't get anyone very far beyond *just* inside the door of Heroics and Naxx. Obviously the requirements for achievements and for speeding up runs to breakneck speeds are MUCH higher. Furthermore, the requirements will be much higher depending on the skill of the people. Remember TBC? Both new and relatively poor longer-time players were suddenly given access to nearly full sets of T5/T6 quality gear and what did they do with it? Finally clear Kara like they always wanted to. And then all of a sudden, the benchmark requirements for getting into Kara turned into the requirements that you EXPECTED to get into Hyjal just a couple months earlier. Completely unrealistic. People complain that elitists demand a super-high level of gear that it far beyond what is actually neccessary. No -- elitists demand a super-high level of performance and understand that, in Wrath especially, it DOESNT take all that much gear to put up major numbers and to survive in intense situations.
The point of the semi-rant is.. be very cautious with benchmarks. They really don't serve a good purpose in Wrath and people that go off spouting them to their guild as requirements or in Trade when PuGing people etc etc are full of it.
Edited, Feb 16th 2009 1:29pm by Losie
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