After taking my 'pve dps frost' build for a spin in BG today, I really felt in love with the Frost tree for pvp... and I keep thinking how much better it could be with a little bit of tweaking. I've been thinking about a Frost spec that would include Hungering Cold for pvp.
Here's what I've came up with.
The logic behind it is that with Endless Winter, I will hardly - if ever - use Icy Touch, making the 9 talents point to boost it a bit of waste. Yes, Haste is nice, but it's also the weakest stats for DKs all around anyway. I am a bit worried on how much it will affect my arena partner(s) however.
I didn't bother taking Chillblains, since 30% is nothing compared to the other snares being tossed around and I figured Chain of Ice spam will be much more effective anyway (and also required for the build).
Toughness is an interesting talent, since it helps with one of the DK's greatest problem - being kited, on top of making you that much tougher against melee. It also has the nice side effect of making this build a somewhat decent tank build if you've ever bored and feel like tanking an heroic (Assuming you have the Def of course).
I personally see Hungering Cold as a way to control the fight. It can be seen as an 'interupt', allowing your mindfreeze cooldown to reset itself. It of course allows for your rune to reset, so you could easily slam a Frost Strike > Obliterate > Frost Strike following it. In Arena setting, the Synergy with a Shatter Mage is obvious, on top of being one of the rare form of CC that can actually 'CC' more then one person. The cooldown is short enough that it can beat trinkets as well.
Feel free to tear this apart.
Edited, Dec 12th 2008 3:49am by Tyrandor
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if your that set on not using IT, id glyph for CoI if you could to get some extra damage... but thats your call i guess
aside from that
move 2 from tundra stalker (or 1 tundra 1 RPM, since 120 RP is 3 frost strikes if your planning a HUGE burst string, that extra 10 RP isnt gonna continue it any further) to merciless combat is a preference of mine, but that depends on whether u rather have stronger burst to finish someone off, or overall damage (if your planning on running a burst team via frost mage, id go for the extra burst at the end... cc train healers and you can get them low, and that will help you KEEP them low)
and id move 1 from dark conviction into imp rune tap.... 10 seconds off that cc and a little more heal outpaces 1% crit imo
otherwise close to what id run if i was gonna ignore IT like that
i have no idea how thatll work, but im running with your concept here :D
aside from that
move 2 from tundra stalker (or 1 tundra 1 RPM, since 120 RP is 3 frost strikes if your planning a HUGE burst string, that extra 10 RP isnt gonna continue it any further) to merciless combat is a preference of mine, but that depends on whether u rather have stronger burst to finish someone off, or overall damage (if your planning on running a burst team via frost mage, id go for the extra burst at the end... cc train healers and you can get them low, and that will help you KEEP them low)
and id move 1 from dark conviction into imp rune tap.... 10 seconds off that cc and a little more heal outpaces 1% crit imo
otherwise close to what id run if i was gonna ignore IT like that
i have no idea how thatll work, but im running with your concept here :D
130RP.
Hungering Cold 60 RP + Frost Strike 40 RP = 30rp left.
I can do anything (altho preferably Oblit) and then slam another FS.
That extra 10 rp left makes this possible. Or rather, it will make it possible when Obliterate goes to only giving 15 RP next patch.
Losing 1 point of Dark Conviction for better Rune Tap is a good idea tho.
And it's not that I don't want to use icy touch... I'm just not sure I see the utility of it. Yes, it does decent damage on it's own, but chain of ice is vital in pvp. Once Chain of Ice can be used to apply Fever... why use icy touch? That's a frost rune better used for Obliterate, no?
And then there's the fact that there's from 1 to 9 talents point used to better Icy Touch... when the ability barely seem useful in pvp.
The big question is how much of a lost the Haste is... but considering how poor haste is for DK (and honestly, most melee)...
Quite often when I pvp as unholy, I'd forego Icy Touch altogether... you don't always have healer that makes fight drawn out, something burst is what matter. And in that case CoI > PS > SS > BS > BS is better then CoI > PS > IT > BS > BS ...
I see the same mentality applying to Frost, except you don't have to lose a disease out of it.
Edited, Dec 12th 2008 12:09am by Tyrandor
Hungering Cold 60 RP + Frost Strike 40 RP = 30rp left.
I can do anything (altho preferably Oblit) and then slam another FS.
That extra 10 rp left makes this possible. Or rather, it will make it possible when Obliterate goes to only giving 15 RP next patch.
Losing 1 point of Dark Conviction for better Rune Tap is a good idea tho.
And it's not that I don't want to use icy touch... I'm just not sure I see the utility of it. Yes, it does decent damage on it's own, but chain of ice is vital in pvp. Once Chain of Ice can be used to apply Fever... why use icy touch? That's a frost rune better used for Obliterate, no?
And then there's the fact that there's from 1 to 9 talents point used to better Icy Touch... when the ability barely seem useful in pvp.
The big question is how much of a lost the Haste is... but considering how poor haste is for DK (and honestly, most melee)...
Quite often when I pvp as unholy, I'd forego Icy Touch altogether... you don't always have healer that makes fight drawn out, something burst is what matter. And in that case CoI > PS > SS > BS > BS is better then CoI > PS > IT > BS > BS ...
I see the same mentality applying to Frost, except you don't have to lose a disease out of it.
Edited, Dec 12th 2008 12:09am by Tyrandor
i guesss
but if your mentioning next patch things
hungering cold is going down to 40 rp cost next patch
so 120 rp = HC FS FS
being at 130 would be like.... HC FS FS OB CoI FS? i dunno, goin to 130 makes sense a lil better with a 60 RP cost on HC... but 40 i dont think its as needed
either way its all preference, at least 120 for triple FS is my preference :) its deliciously evil
but if your mentioning next patch things
hungering cold is going down to 40 rp cost next patch
so 120 rp = HC FS FS
being at 130 would be like.... HC FS FS OB CoI FS? i dunno, goin to 130 makes sense a lil better with a 60 RP cost on HC... but 40 i dont think its as needed
either way its all preference, at least 120 for triple FS is my preference :) its deliciously evil
I would do this.
You gain even more power against rogues, warriors, paladins, etc, and all you lose out on is Killing Machine, which is lackluster unless you're DWing.
You can switch Frost Aura to Merciless Combat if you really feel like it, but personally I like the added mitigation against casters (plus resists can be very, very clutch in PvP, and it applies to your entire group).
To your point about IT, the only time I ever use IT anymore is really on paladins who have BoF up to get the disease bonus, or when I'm kiting someone to build RP with my other Frost rune while I'm hitting them with CoI on my other.
I just personally feel that for 2h, KM is a very weak talent, especially in PvP where you're not going to get every white hit that your swing timer rotates through. I feel that the added mitigation you get will help you more than KM will.
Anyway, that's my own personal thoughts. If you ever feel like giving Blood a try, give my current build a whirl. I've been extremely hard to kill (48 sec AMS is hawt, plus LB, plus Toughness, plus 30 yard CoI, plus Annihilation, plus DG on 25 sec cooldown) and with the next patch, it's only going to be better. HS as a cleave, while a partial nerf (in that I won't completely rape casters anymore with the physical CoT that the Stroke debuff provides) will be extremely nice in arena when you get people clustered in 5s.
I'm hoping that it acts like BF for rogues, not like Swipe for druids, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Comments are welcome.
You gain even more power against rogues, warriors, paladins, etc, and all you lose out on is Killing Machine, which is lackluster unless you're DWing.
You can switch Frost Aura to Merciless Combat if you really feel like it, but personally I like the added mitigation against casters (plus resists can be very, very clutch in PvP, and it applies to your entire group).
To your point about IT, the only time I ever use IT anymore is really on paladins who have BoF up to get the disease bonus, or when I'm kiting someone to build RP with my other Frost rune while I'm hitting them with CoI on my other.
I just personally feel that for 2h, KM is a very weak talent, especially in PvP where you're not going to get every white hit that your swing timer rotates through. I feel that the added mitigation you get will help you more than KM will.
Anyway, that's my own personal thoughts. If you ever feel like giving Blood a try, give my current build a whirl. I've been extremely hard to kill (48 sec AMS is hawt, plus LB, plus Toughness, plus 30 yard CoI, plus Annihilation, plus DG on 25 sec cooldown) and with the next patch, it's only going to be better. HS as a cleave, while a partial nerf (in that I won't completely rape casters anymore with the physical CoT that the Stroke debuff provides) will be extremely nice in arena when you get people clustered in 5s.
I'm hoping that it acts like BF for rogues, not like Swipe for druids, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Comments are welcome.
my guess is itll be a cleave analog theo. that should make the positioning fairly easy to set up, especially given that its instant instead of next-hit.
Tyr, I really do endorse making room for Frost Aura in your build. It's 15% resist against equal-level players, and not just for you.
My own Frost PVP build forgoes Rune Tap to dip into Unholy for dispel resistance and reduced DG cooldown, but still picks up two-hand specialization.
My own Frost PVP build forgoes Rune Tap to dip into Unholy for dispel resistance and reduced DG cooldown, but still picks up two-hand specialization.
Anyways. It looks like a decent enough build, Tyr, though mongoose's suggestions are all spot on, and Theo's suggested build looks a little better IMO (though it's painful for me to even say so; he plugs himself way too much here as it is). One thing though: What are you planning on using this build for? Just... PvP in general? 5v5? 3v3? 2v2?
Gaudion wrote:
Anyways. It looks like a decent enough build, Tyr, though mongoose's suggestions are all spot on, and Theo's suggested build looks a little better IMO (though it's painful for me to even say so; he plugs himself way too much here as it is). One thing though: What are you planning on using this build for? Just... PvP in general? 5v5? 3v3? 2v2?
I plug myself?
I give advice that I haven't seen posted.
We haven't had many posts about PvP, or at least individual talent choices in PvP, ergo I hadn't given my input and thoughts on individual talents which--if you read the rogue forums--is something I do with great frequency.
What I mean by that is I look at different talent choices pretty extensively, balancing pros and cons to try and find the most optimal spec, and then I post my own findings.
So of course I'm "plugging myself", because it's my own thoughts. I'm not ripping them from someone or just posting straight from EJ. I've respecced 20 times on my DK; most of them have been PvP respecs to move a point or two around.
You really need to resist flaming me, Gaudion. I've not really been as huge of an ******* as I'm capable of being here because I respect pretty much everyone that's posted here, and I realize it's a new class. I'd appreciate if you kept it civil; I don't want this forum to devolve into what the shaman forums turned into when I tried to give my input there.
@Quor, I agree that it'll probably be a Cleave analog. I was hoping it would be like BF, but I think that's wishful thinking.
@emmits, that's my other choice for the build. I personally do solo PvP way too much to go 7 or 9 in Unholy (and thus leaving out IRT), but it'd be a great build for arena.
honestly its looking more and more like i might pvp unholy, pet clutch stuns and AMZ (while not AMAZING) are big helps used correctly... and id be able to get rune tap
gives me some flexibility teammate wise too... cuz i cant imagine 2v2 as frost dk without frost mage or offesnive-dispelling healer
as far as pvp builds go, heres what id do for each tree
blood:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcxMqIhIsbopuhohg0zZfMM
WotN changes to 15% damage reduction under 35% hp in the patch, so that is VERY appealing to me (side note, AMS gets a CD reduction of its own to 45 seconds too... so thatll be nice)
grabs imp DG and epidemic (no dispel resistance but i can live with that... in 2v2, if your opponent has good disease coverage, there gonna have trouble killing a blood death knight anyways) and lichborne
personally, im a huge fan of the blade barrier/spell deflection combo.... blood already has great melee resistance with imp rune tap and mark of blood, so extra protection vs magic is big for me (and with blade barrier up... it should be at least 15-20% chance parry? clutch resists on big threats to DKs like frost setups (triggers during deep freeze id imagine, its parry chance... not when you can parry) or being focused on magic-based nuke teams)
and i can gladly sacrifice AP for extra parry... but thats my preference
frost:
im tossing around points like crazy nowadays
definately imp rune tap, but hungering cold is only a maybe
maybe bladebarrier/acclamation/frostaura/spelldeflection synergy to just be a complete pain in the *** for casters to kill... and partner with a warrior (YES, a warrior) for healing debuff?
just for season 5 since resil wont be out of hand, bursting down a healer shouldnt be hard in healer/dps setups (billion silences/interrupts between a DK and a warrior (especially if i can grab a tauren)) and double dps would either be a: destroy whatever melee if it isnt a ret-a-din, b: completely destroy whatever caster dps, while silence-locking the other dps caster, c: handle retadins... half their **** is spell based, if acclamation stacks from their holy attacks, i might just resist repent, and clutch IBF or trinket the hoj... they can bubble but a well timed strangulate might work
only things during season 5 that would seriously counter dk/warrior would be twin stealth or twin mage.... but even twin mage i can keep 1 mage in melee range, well destroy him.... and twin stealth is too risky, wont be popular
but thats all veeeeery theory, and ill hafta research some serious **** before i try any of that (see what spells would trigger on aclamation for 1)
no idea what im planning on doin though either way
unholy:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbtMacb0oZ0gZfMGhofkMeaR0oz
some points to fiddle with, but partner with rogue for win id imagine
as you can tell, im big on anti-magic, and i see magic being the killer to DKs.... so whatever builds go deep enough, i like bladebarrier/spelldeflection
will need testing to see how all this actually works... cuz i can theory fighter all day, but my lazy *** is still only 72 (almost 73 though) so... ya... need to work on that
gives me some flexibility teammate wise too... cuz i cant imagine 2v2 as frost dk without frost mage or offesnive-dispelling healer
as far as pvp builds go, heres what id do for each tree
blood:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcxMqIhIsbopuhohg0zZfMM
WotN changes to 15% damage reduction under 35% hp in the patch, so that is VERY appealing to me (side note, AMS gets a CD reduction of its own to 45 seconds too... so thatll be nice)
grabs imp DG and epidemic (no dispel resistance but i can live with that... in 2v2, if your opponent has good disease coverage, there gonna have trouble killing a blood death knight anyways) and lichborne
personally, im a huge fan of the blade barrier/spell deflection combo.... blood already has great melee resistance with imp rune tap and mark of blood, so extra protection vs magic is big for me (and with blade barrier up... it should be at least 15-20% chance parry? clutch resists on big threats to DKs like frost setups (triggers during deep freeze id imagine, its parry chance... not when you can parry) or being focused on magic-based nuke teams)
and i can gladly sacrifice AP for extra parry... but thats my preference
frost:
im tossing around points like crazy nowadays
definately imp rune tap, but hungering cold is only a maybe
maybe bladebarrier/acclamation/frostaura/spelldeflection synergy to just be a complete pain in the *** for casters to kill... and partner with a warrior (YES, a warrior) for healing debuff?
just for season 5 since resil wont be out of hand, bursting down a healer shouldnt be hard in healer/dps setups (billion silences/interrupts between a DK and a warrior (especially if i can grab a tauren)) and double dps would either be a: destroy whatever melee if it isnt a ret-a-din, b: completely destroy whatever caster dps, while silence-locking the other dps caster, c: handle retadins... half their **** is spell based, if acclamation stacks from their holy attacks, i might just resist repent, and clutch IBF or trinket the hoj... they can bubble but a well timed strangulate might work
only things during season 5 that would seriously counter dk/warrior would be twin stealth or twin mage.... but even twin mage i can keep 1 mage in melee range, well destroy him.... and twin stealth is too risky, wont be popular
but thats all veeeeery theory, and ill hafta research some serious **** before i try any of that (see what spells would trigger on aclamation for 1)
no idea what im planning on doin though either way
unholy:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbtMacb0oZ0gZfMGhofkMeaR0oz
some points to fiddle with, but partner with rogue for win id imagine
as you can tell, im big on anti-magic, and i see magic being the killer to DKs.... so whatever builds go deep enough, i like bladebarrier/spelldeflection
will need testing to see how all this actually works... cuz i can theory fighter all day, but my lazy *** is still only 72 (almost 73 though) so... ya... need to work on that
Scholar
31 posts
Personally, I like this Frost build for PvP. I like Acclimation in PvP, it stacks pretty nice and can make casters shiver in their boots. It's pretty similar to Theo's, except I have a lot more RP generation and Acclimation. Both builds work great, especially with a Ret Pally (but what doesn't work well with one of them?) or a Frost Mage.
Well, before this turn into a free for all discussion about pvp spec (Not that there's anything wrong with that), I'll answer the few point pertinent to my build.
@Mongoose - I don't think losing 4% damage and 2 expertise pretty much at all time (Since FF will almost always be up) on all my abilities is worth 12% more on 3 abilities when the target is at <35%. You're right that 130 in RP seems a bit wasteful...you only really need 120. So I might put 1 in MC and 2/3 in RPM.
@Killing Machine - I actually agree with you Theo, KM feels lackluster in pvp. While it procs quite often in raids, raids implies you're sitting there and beating up stuff for several minute in a row. White hits certainly don't happen as often in pvp. Frigid Dreadplate and Frost Aura makes this build even more viable as 'occasional heroic tank' build as well.
Edited, Dec 12th 2008 1:51pm by Tyrandor
@Mongoose - I don't think losing 4% damage and 2 expertise pretty much at all time (Since FF will almost always be up) on all my abilities is worth 12% more on 3 abilities when the target is at <35%. You're right that 130 in RP seems a bit wasteful...you only really need 120. So I might put 1 in MC and 2/3 in RPM.
@Killing Machine - I actually agree with you Theo, KM feels lackluster in pvp. While it procs quite often in raids, raids implies you're sitting there and beating up stuff for several minute in a row. White hits certainly don't happen as often in pvp. Frigid Dreadplate and Frost Aura makes this build even more viable as 'occasional heroic tank' build as well.
Edited, Dec 12th 2008 1:51pm by Tyrandor
the reason i like MC over TS... is FF is cleansable
3x FS is not... and usually from my experience its harder to finish that last 30%, then get them to that point in the first place
i like whatever help i can get in that general area :D but ya... totally a preference between the 2, i agree ^_^
3x FS is not... and usually from my experience its harder to finish that last 30%, then get them to that point in the first place
i like whatever help i can get in that general area :D but ya... totally a preference between the 2, i agree ^_^
Yes, you plug yourself. How on earth else would giving Tyr advice about a Frost PvP spec...
... turn into, "My Blood spec is great, you should try it"? Whether it's for your FAQ (which you love to take credit for even though it's almost entirely a copy/paste from EJ) or your own "personal expertise", you do a lot of personal plugging on here, Theo. A little too much.
In any case... I don't want this turning into a huge flamewar. I won't say anything else about it since your skin is obviously not as thick as you expect everyone else's to be. On to the subject at hand.
This has been my experience too, mongoose. In fact, when it's DPS you're up against it's fine, but right now as someone who's playing both a DK and a healer (Resto Shaman), I feel that DK's have serious problems putting healers away and putting other opponents away when healers are around. Diseases are easily removed without Virulance, which almost nobody has, they don't have an MS effect, they can't really pour on enough burst or control to pressure anyone too hard, and top of all of that, their damage and their control tools both draw on the same resources, so it's really hard to do both effectively.
I don't think I would ever consider putting together a Frost PvP build without Merciless Combat.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Anyway, that's my own personal thoughts. If you ever feel like giving Blood a try, give my current build a whirl. I've been extremely hard to kill (48 sec AMS is hawt, plus LB, plus Toughness, plus 30 yard CoI, plus Annihilation, plus DG on 25 sec cooldown) and with the next patch, it's only going to be better. HS as a cleave, while a partial nerf (in that I won't completely rape casters anymore with the physical CoT that the Stroke debuff provides) will be extremely nice in arena when you get people clustered in 5s.
I'm hoping that it acts like BF for rogues, not like Swipe for druids, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Comments are welcome.
I'm hoping that it acts like BF for rogues, not like Swipe for druids, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Comments are welcome.
... turn into, "My Blood spec is great, you should try it"? Whether it's for your FAQ (which you love to take credit for even though it's almost entirely a copy/paste from EJ) or your own "personal expertise", you do a lot of personal plugging on here, Theo. A little too much.
In any case... I don't want this turning into a huge flamewar. I won't say anything else about it since your skin is obviously not as thick as you expect everyone else's to be. On to the subject at hand.
mongoosexcore wrote:
the reason i like MC over TS... is FF is cleansable
3x FS is not... and usually from my experience its harder to finish that last 30%, then get them to that point in the first place
i like whatever help i can get in that general area :D but ya... totally a preference between the 2, i agree ^_^
3x FS is not... and usually from my experience its harder to finish that last 30%, then get them to that point in the first place
i like whatever help i can get in that general area :D but ya... totally a preference between the 2, i agree ^_^
This has been my experience too, mongoose. In fact, when it's DPS you're up against it's fine, but right now as someone who's playing both a DK and a healer (Resto Shaman), I feel that DK's have serious problems putting healers away and putting other opponents away when healers are around. Diseases are easily removed without Virulance, which almost nobody has, they don't have an MS effect, they can't really pour on enough burst or control to pressure anyone too hard, and top of all of that, their damage and their control tools both draw on the same resources, so it's really hard to do both effectively.
I don't think I would ever consider putting together a Frost PvP build without Merciless Combat.
in response to you now tyr, this is what i would do for a frost/blood hybrid:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqMZMgxzIzdMGRVost
its more or less the same thing, only it drops KM to pick up frost aura, merciless combat, and a point of frigid dreadplate. frost aura really is awesome, and ive even heard some good things about acclimation too, altho ive no idea how to fit it into this build currently without dropping other more important stuff.
youre right in not taking chillblains, as ive heard the snare effect attached to the frost fever disease currently is immuned by HoF which translates into making it a lot harder to keep frost fever up. it also lets druids "shift out" of frost fever, which as you can imagine provides all sorts of complications.
i like hungering cold. its only melee range, and it costs a lot now, but with the 20 rp reduction in the upcoming patch i think itll be one of those CC's that can make or break a fight. once you dont have to sit on about 50% of your RP at all times in order use it right its usefulness is just going to go up.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqMZMgxzIzdMGRVost
its more or less the same thing, only it drops KM to pick up frost aura, merciless combat, and a point of frigid dreadplate. frost aura really is awesome, and ive even heard some good things about acclimation too, altho ive no idea how to fit it into this build currently without dropping other more important stuff.
youre right in not taking chillblains, as ive heard the snare effect attached to the frost fever disease currently is immuned by HoF which translates into making it a lot harder to keep frost fever up. it also lets druids "shift out" of frost fever, which as you can imagine provides all sorts of complications.
i like hungering cold. its only melee range, and it costs a lot now, but with the 20 rp reduction in the upcoming patch i think itll be one of those CC's that can make or break a fight. once you dont have to sit on about 50% of your RP at all times in order use it right its usefulness is just going to go up.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
I would do this.
Do you think that moving points in the Blood tree from Dark Conviction to [max] out Bladed Armor and Death Rune Mastery would work as well?
UnknownSoldier wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
I would do this.
Do you think that moving points in the Blood tree from Dark Conviction to [max] out Bladed Armor and Death Rune Mastery would work as well?
DRM is an awful waste, and TBH I'd rather have Dark Conviction over Bladed armor.
DRM is a waste because adding death runes instead of FU runes does nothing for you, since your main attacks (HB/OB) are both FU attacks.
Some feedback on the posts going around. I very slightly mortified what most are getting at to this, http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMqcZMgxzIcd0GRVost
I found 120 RP was definitely the way to go over 130, and that left me with 2 in FD. The only real option of any movement I could see is one from MC to FD, but I have always preferred seeing bigger numbers as opposed to 1% miss. However, considering the low amount of hit that most people go for while gearing PvP, that FD point could be good. Got me.
Ive been PvPing at 79 for a bit just to get the hang of things (that and I ran out of rested exp) and this build is just lethal. Rune Tap is a savior and ive had MUCH better success with this than as unholy. I could not decide with unholy whether or not I would use SS or DS for the health (since I went into frost with my unholy for lich). With Rune tap (and DS giving back a lot less health) I am able to utilize OB more.
Im now a happy frost believer.
Edit. I re-read that and realized why I shouldn't post at 1:30 am. It just sounded awful so I had to fix it.
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 1:41am by Zisikpus
I found 120 RP was definitely the way to go over 130, and that left me with 2 in FD. The only real option of any movement I could see is one from MC to FD, but I have always preferred seeing bigger numbers as opposed to 1% miss. However, considering the low amount of hit that most people go for while gearing PvP, that FD point could be good. Got me.
Ive been PvPing at 79 for a bit just to get the hang of things (that and I ran out of rested exp) and this build is just lethal. Rune Tap is a savior and ive had MUCH better success with this than as unholy. I could not decide with unholy whether or not I would use SS or DS for the health (since I went into frost with my unholy for lich). With Rune tap (and DS giving back a lot less health) I am able to utilize OB more.
Im now a happy frost believer.
Edit. I re-read that and realized why I shouldn't post at 1:30 am. It just sounded awful so I had to fix it.
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 1:41am by Zisikpus
Zisikpus wrote:
Some feedback on the posts going around. I very slightly mortified what most are getting at to this, http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMqcZMgxzIcd0GRVost
I found 120 RP was definitely the way to go over 130, and that left me with 2 in FD. The only real option of any movement I could see is one from MC to FD, but I have always preferred seeing bigger numbers as opposed to 1% miss. However, considering the low amount of hit that most people go for while gearing PvP, that FD point could be good. Got me.
Ive been PvPing at 79 for a bit just to get the hang of things (that and I ran out of rested exp) and this build is just lethal. Rune Tap is a savior and ive had MUCH better success with this than as unholy. I could not decide with unholy whether or not I would use SS or DS for the health (since I went into frost with my unholy for lich). With Rune tap (and DS giving back a lot less health) I am able to utilize OB more.
Im now a happy frost believer.
Edit. I re-read that and realized why I shouldn't post at 1:30 am. It just sounded awful so I had to fix it.
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 1:41am by Zisikpus
I found 120 RP was definitely the way to go over 130, and that left me with 2 in FD. The only real option of any movement I could see is one from MC to FD, but I have always preferred seeing bigger numbers as opposed to 1% miss. However, considering the low amount of hit that most people go for while gearing PvP, that FD point could be good. Got me.
Ive been PvPing at 79 for a bit just to get the hang of things (that and I ran out of rested exp) and this build is just lethal. Rune Tap is a savior and ive had MUCH better success with this than as unholy. I could not decide with unholy whether or not I would use SS or DS for the health (since I went into frost with my unholy for lich). With Rune tap (and DS giving back a lot less health) I am able to utilize OB more.
Im now a happy frost believer.
Edit. I re-read that and realized why I shouldn't post at 1:30 am. It just sounded awful so I had to fix it.
Edited, Dec 16th 2008 1:41am by Zisikpus
Your build is the same as the one I posted.
You need to click the "Link to this Build" in order to be able to copy/paste it.
FWIW, I'm going to be testing this build in PvP to see what Acclimation does for me. I'll post my findings later; I think that frost may be the true answer for serious PvP.
Just to note by reading and theorycrafting, Acclimation is 50 resist per application. Assuming Frost Aura (because what good PvPer wouldn't take it?), that's 230 resist that you can get. It also works on holy damage, nature from rogue's poisons, etc.
Might be the solution to surviving a ret paladin until we get more resilience to tone down their burst.
Why take Butchery and Subversion over Blade Barrier? 10% avoidance for 5 points an amazing talent, especially seeing how Rune Strike is the bane of any melee class.
imanohealu wrote:
Why take Butchery and Subversion over Blade Barrier? 10% avoidance for 5 points an amazing talent, especially seeing how Rune Strike is the bane of any melee class.
Because 9% crit on Oblit is incredible for a first tier talent, and Blade Barrier is only worthwhile against two classes?
Blade Barrier is a tanking talent, not a PvP talent.
Scholar
41 posts
Hmm im very interested to hear your feedback theo on that 18/53/0 build.
On a side note, i think tyrandor touched on this a couple posts back, the issue for me when it came to frost pvp was getting the "ideal" FS spam we all dream of.
Any tips on this strategy, or is there a new "spot" for a FS in these new frost builds.
On a side note, i think tyrandor touched on this a couple posts back, the issue for me when it came to frost pvp was getting the "ideal" FS spam we all dream of.
Any tips on this strategy, or is there a new "spot" for a FS in these new frost builds.
wyns wrote:
Hmm im very interested to hear your feedback theo on that 18/53/0 build.
On a side note, i think tyrandor touched on this a couple posts back, the issue for me when it came to frost pvp was getting the "ideal" FS spam we all dream of.
Any tips on this strategy, or is there a new "spot" for a FS in these new frost builds.
On a side note, i think tyrandor touched on this a couple posts back, the issue for me when it came to frost pvp was getting the "ideal" FS spam we all dream of.
Any tips on this strategy, or is there a new "spot" for a FS in these new frost builds.
I think Frost could be ideal in a cleave team, where you've got a warrior using hamstring so you can IT to proc Rime (with HB having no cooldown next patch, it makes for tremendous burst).
That's really the only situation where I think Frost is useful, as with hamstring/crippling poison, you don't need to use CoI as a snare, and thus you can blow RP on FS/Oblit while you sit on someone's ***.
Even so, I think Unholy is better with SS/DC. With all the disease boosting talents, I think Unholy still does better unmitigated damage.
Keep in mind that you're going to get--at most--3 FSs in a row; Oblit is mitigated by armor. I've gotten 5k+ SSs, where the highest Oblit I've gotten is ~4k. On plate, SS will hit just as hard as on cloth, where Oblit gets mitigated a lot by armor.
And you've also got a pet as Unholy. That's useful in all kinds of ways.
BTW, I've been glyphing IBF/AMS/SS recently. I like the SS glyph quite a bit, though it actually doesn't proc Desecration when it refreshes your diseases, though it does refresh Ebon Plaguebringer and Crypt Fever.
With Reaping, you can almost throw IT/PS out the window and just use BS/SS, and rotate IT/PS in when you want the Desecrated Ground effect.
Overlord Theophany wrote:
I would do this.
You gain even more power against rogues, warriors, paladins, etc, and all you lose out on is Killing Machine, which is lackluster unless you're DWing.
You can switch Frost Aura to Merciless Combat if you really feel like it, but personally I like the added mitigation against casters (plus resists can be very, very clutch in PvP, and it applies to your entire group).
To your point about IT, the only time I ever use IT anymore is really on paladins who have BoF up to get the disease bonus, or when I'm kiting someone to build RP with my other Frost rune while I'm hitting them with CoI on my other.
I just personally feel that for 2h, KM is a very weak talent, especially in PvP where you're not going to get every white hit that your swing timer rotates through. I feel that the added mitigation you get will help you more than KM will.
Anyway, that's my own personal thoughts. If you ever feel like giving Blood a try, give my current build a whirl. I've been extremely hard to kill (48 sec AMS is hawt, plus LB, plus Toughness, plus 30 yard CoI, plus Annihilation, plus DG on 25 sec cooldown) and with the next patch, it's only going to be better. HS as a cleave, while a partial nerf (in that I won't completely rape casters anymore with the physical CoT that the Stroke debuff provides) will be extremely nice in arena when you get people clustered in 5s.
I'm hoping that it acts like BF for rogues, not like Swipe for druids, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Comments are welcome.
You gain even more power against rogues, warriors, paladins, etc, and all you lose out on is Killing Machine, which is lackluster unless you're DWing.
You can switch Frost Aura to Merciless Combat if you really feel like it, but personally I like the added mitigation against casters (plus resists can be very, very clutch in PvP, and it applies to your entire group).
To your point about IT, the only time I ever use IT anymore is really on paladins who have BoF up to get the disease bonus, or when I'm kiting someone to build RP with my other Frost rune while I'm hitting them with CoI on my other.
I just personally feel that for 2h, KM is a very weak talent, especially in PvP where you're not going to get every white hit that your swing timer rotates through. I feel that the added mitigation you get will help you more than KM will.
Anyway, that's my own personal thoughts. If you ever feel like giving Blood a try, give my current build a whirl. I've been extremely hard to kill (48 sec AMS is hawt, plus LB, plus Toughness, plus 30 yard CoI, plus Annihilation, plus DG on 25 sec cooldown) and with the next patch, it's only going to be better. HS as a cleave, while a partial nerf (in that I won't completely rape casters anymore with the physical CoT that the Stroke debuff provides) will be extremely nice in arena when you get people clustered in 5s.
I'm hoping that it acts like BF for rogues, not like Swipe for druids, but that's probably hoping for too much.
Comments are welcome.
Ok, this build has made me a convert from the Unholy side. No constantly dying ghoul to look after, no on again/off again bone shield.
I've always liked Toughness so I'm happy to build around it. Lichborne with a macro death coil heal is nice, as well as having the blood side Rune Tap ... I took Frost Aura for the resists. And with Annihilation and Dark Conviction I'm hitting hard as hell, even in my store bought gear.
The only thing I miss is Unholy Command, but I can live without it.
(Yeah Theo .. please continue to plug yourself. :P)
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