I have really loved being a mage for quite a while now, coming up against a few frustrations here and there, but overall, it's been good. However, I seem to have hit another bad spot. In the past, pre-wrath, pre-patch, I could almost always count on being in the top for damage and dps in heroics and raids. It was nice. Since a mage is all about damage, and, of course, crowd control, I felt good having contributed so much to each run, getting the most out of my abilities that I could( such as spellsteal, counterspell, and down and dirty damage). Yes, a good warlock, or even a hunter could at times, out-dps me, or do more damage, but that was ok. I still did a lot.
When the patch came out, things started to change. I first noticed it with a warrior friend, who suddenly began to get very, very close to me in dps, and even passing me at times. He was very well geared, and a good player, so I put it aside. Then, WotLK hit, I leveled to 80, and started running reg instances and recently, heroics. I am now out-dpsed by everyone, and my overall damage output is very, very low. On the last few heroic runs, I was 4th in overall damage, and third in dps. It's not a close race, either. I am way, way behind. SO far, shamans, death knights, hunters, and even the tank have put me to shame. I don't notice much difference in damage output from level 70.
I've tried every build in order to try and get to where i was, but without successs. I pop trinkets all the time now, and use combustion and icy viens whenever they are up, which is something I never used to do. In the past, this was mainly a threat issue. Just using fireball, and scorch, I could almost match the tank in threat, and had to control myself carefully.
The people I run with are all very good players, and the tank is excellent. I almost never come close to matching threat with him anymore. After the patch, I still could, but in wrath dungeons, no way. Only once or twice have I come close.
My gear is comparable to everyone I run with, as in the past. My hit stinks now, but so does everyone's, so I don't feel so bad. I'm going to improve this as quickly as I can. I used to be hit capped, and saw what a difference it made pre-patch.
So, what I notice, now is that that on a typical trash mob with 40-50k health, I can't cast very many spells before he dies. A 3 second cast on fireball or frostfire bolt is an eternity. I loaded up with haste and went frost, but it didn't make a difference in terms of damage output. I haven't tried arcane as much in instances, but I will.
Every other class seems to produce damage quicker than I do. I just can't keep up and it's frustrating t the point that I feel I'm not contributing nearly as much as I used to. Crowd control is still there, but I ran with a shaman the other day and saw what he could do with the frog, and got even more depressed.
If I played another class, like a shaman, or death knight, or paladin, for example, I wouldn't feel so bad, because i could respec and fill another role. But a mage can only dps, no matter what the spec. Even hunters, besides their pure dps role, have a ton of tricks to bring aside from just damage. I'm beginning to feel useless.
As a player, I'm not the best, but not bad, either. I'm sure I could be doing things more efficiently, and effectively, but my current damage situation is just dire. How can I expect to be invited on runs, when another player in the guild( we have a lot of good people) can take my place and contribute so much more.
What am I doing wrong here?
I linked my current spec, which is a frostfire based one. My gear is mostly quest reward blues. The drops I've gotten are lackluster at best, for the most part. And for some reason my +dmg is about he same as it was at 70. grrr
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drenden&n=Morgause
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DPS problems and frustrationsFollow
Here's a little secret for us mages right now:
If we are not arcane or maybe frost in 5-mans we will have terrible dps. Too much of our dps is based on crit (which right now you are super low on) and spelldmg. Most of our casts are about 2.5-3 seconds long while many others are using instant casts and dots. Don't expect to be higher than #3 in a 5man, just don't.
In reality, the only time that dps really matters is on bosses, if you can put out similar numbers to the players you are running with on heroic or better (don't count normal 5mans) bosses, then that is good. Overall, they just die too damn quickly for us to gain anything. Wait until you are in Naxx fighting patchwerk and other similar fights that are dps checks and see how you do there When a fight lasts 45 seconds or 1 minute, you are playing by RNG.
If we are not arcane or maybe frost in 5-mans we will have terrible dps. Too much of our dps is based on crit (which right now you are super low on) and spelldmg. Most of our casts are about 2.5-3 seconds long while many others are using instant casts and dots. Don't expect to be higher than #3 in a 5man, just don't.
In reality, the only time that dps really matters is on bosses, if you can put out similar numbers to the players you are running with on heroic or better (don't count normal 5mans) bosses, then that is good. Overall, they just die too damn quickly for us to gain anything. Wait until you are in Naxx fighting patchwerk and other similar fights that are dps checks and see how you do there When a fight lasts 45 seconds or 1 minute, you are playing by RNG.
Scholar
39 posts
Thanks for the reply.
At least I know I don't just stink as mage.
My crit is super low at the moment. Why is crit gear so rare these days? Damn annoying. Have to get the Molten armor glyph as soon as I find it.
Three on the damage list seems to be my home these days. On boss fight, I do well for the most part, unless it's an unusual fight. The second to last boss in heroic Nexus makes me about useless with that spell reflect. And any fight that involves taking much damage or moving a lot screws with dps, too. We can't survive much, and moving screws up casting.
I must say, I'm disappointed in how mages have been treated. All the new spells have been a little underwhelming or down right awful. Mirror Image just isn't very good. They die too quickly and do pathetic damage ( although the threat sharing is nice). Deep freeze is useful sometimes, but as the cap of the talent tree it is a letdown. Living Bomb is ok, but at 12 seconds, too long to help most of the time. I do like Arcane Barrage a lot, but just can't get the hang of the arcane tree. Need to play with it more.
I know every class wants to be number one at damage, and they all think they are under-powered. I would just be happy at this point with the chance to be number one at damage.
We have sheep at least, still the best CC in the game, but the shaman hex is pretty damn good, too.
SO, what then, is the future of the Mage? It isn't dps, that's for sure.
A shorter cast time on spells would be very, very nice.
At least I know I don't just stink as mage.
My crit is super low at the moment. Why is crit gear so rare these days? Damn annoying. Have to get the Molten armor glyph as soon as I find it.
Three on the damage list seems to be my home these days. On boss fight, I do well for the most part, unless it's an unusual fight. The second to last boss in heroic Nexus makes me about useless with that spell reflect. And any fight that involves taking much damage or moving a lot screws with dps, too. We can't survive much, and moving screws up casting.
I must say, I'm disappointed in how mages have been treated. All the new spells have been a little underwhelming or down right awful. Mirror Image just isn't very good. They die too quickly and do pathetic damage ( although the threat sharing is nice). Deep freeze is useful sometimes, but as the cap of the talent tree it is a letdown. Living Bomb is ok, but at 12 seconds, too long to help most of the time. I do like Arcane Barrage a lot, but just can't get the hang of the arcane tree. Need to play with it more.
I know every class wants to be number one at damage, and they all think they are under-powered. I would just be happy at this point with the chance to be number one at damage.
We have sheep at least, still the best CC in the game, but the shaman hex is pretty damn good, too.
SO, what then, is the future of the Mage? It isn't dps, that's for sure.
A shorter cast time on spells would be very, very nice.
Well, remember Shaman hex is a 30 second cooldown.
Crit gear isn't non-existant or that rare, you just have to choose between haste and crit a lot of the time. Try running heroic halls of stone and getting the forge ember and save up 40 badges and get the sundial trinket (two things that have me /drool-ing)
We may not always be #1 on dps, but throughout Naxx 25 I am (or another mage) is consistently in the top 5 if not top 3, depending on the fight of course. Hunters and affliction warlocks destroy the charts, then frostfire mages, then rogues/warriors/etc.
Crit gear isn't non-existant or that rare, you just have to choose between haste and crit a lot of the time. Try running heroic halls of stone and getting the forge ember and save up 40 badges and get the sundial trinket (two things that have me /drool-ing)
We may not always be #1 on dps, but throughout Naxx 25 I am (or another mage) is consistently in the top 5 if not top 3, depending on the fight of course. Hunters and affliction warlocks destroy the charts, then frostfire mages, then rogues/warriors/etc.
Scholar
39 posts
I've been drooling over the trinket, too. Ran Halls of Stone reg for the first time the other day. We're probably going there on heroic really soon. Crit seems rare to me, but it's been a while since I really geared up like this, so maybe I'm just feeling like it's rare because I want it so much.
I realize that topping the DPS charts isn't as important as playing well, but sometimes it feels like my dps is just so damn low, and I'm not doing a good job as a result. I'm still experimenting with specs to see what works and what doesn't. Just read your FFB post and found it very helpful. I like the spell quite a bit, and want to maximize it's potential.
Sheep is so much better than hex, but when I saw it used the other day for the first time, I almost cried. Not only was the shaman dominating dps, he could CC, too! And heal! Curse those Hybrid classes! But I can only imagine how tricky it can be to use with the cooldowns. Sheep is very easy to use, really. I see the hassle hunters go through with traps, for example, and consider myself lucky to have something like sheep.
At least we get to port. Every time I play another character, that is the spell I miss the most.
Hmmmm I wonder if blizzard will ever consider a Death Mage to go along with the Death Knight? When we sheep, it could be an undead Death Sheep.
I realize that topping the DPS charts isn't as important as playing well, but sometimes it feels like my dps is just so damn low, and I'm not doing a good job as a result. I'm still experimenting with specs to see what works and what doesn't. Just read your FFB post and found it very helpful. I like the spell quite a bit, and want to maximize it's potential.
Sheep is so much better than hex, but when I saw it used the other day for the first time, I almost cried. Not only was the shaman dominating dps, he could CC, too! And heal! Curse those Hybrid classes! But I can only imagine how tricky it can be to use with the cooldowns. Sheep is very easy to use, really. I see the hassle hunters go through with traps, for example, and consider myself lucky to have something like sheep.
At least we get to port. Every time I play another character, that is the spell I miss the most.
Hmmmm I wonder if blizzard will ever consider a Death Mage to go along with the Death Knight? When we sheep, it could be an undead Death Sheep.
Anobix the Wise wrote:
We may not always be #1 on dps, but throughout Naxx 25 I am (or another mage) is consistently in the top 5 if not top 3, depending on the fight of course. Hunters and affliction warlocks destroy the charts, then frostfire mages, then rogues/warriors/etc.
How are you doing in Naxx 10, out of curiousity? I ended up as lowest DPS(though still ahead of the tanks by a large margin) in my one Naxx 10 I've done. Though I was lacking a boomkin and we didn't have anyone doing the Increased Spelldamage Taken debuff(CoE equivalent) and we had some fairly strong stacking for physical damage, I still worry. And if you WWS it, are you seeing that you're behind on trash and do well on bosses(I suspect that to have been the case for me, though I forgot to WWS it and only got the numbers from a friend's recount at the end of the night)?
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Anobix the Wise wrote:
We may not always be #1 on dps, but throughout Naxx 25 I am (or another mage) is consistently in the top 5 if not top 3, depending on the fight of course. Hunters and affliction warlocks destroy the charts, then frostfire mages, then rogues/warriors/etc.
How are you doing in Naxx 10, out of curiousity? I ended up as lowest DPS(though still ahead of the tanks by a large margin) in my one Naxx 10 I've done. Though I was lacking a boomkin and we didn't have anyone doing the Increased Spelldamage Taken debuff(CoE equivalent) and we had some fairly strong stacking for physical damage, I still worry. And if you WWS it, are you seeing that you're behind on trash and do well on bosses(I suspect that to have been the case for me, though I forgot to WWS it and only got the numbers from a friend's recount at the end of the night)?
I've been through one full Naxx10 clear (our first clear) so far, and should be going in again tonight, I will remember to WWS it and link it here.
I was pretty starved for mana (no spriest) and also no boomkin or ele shaman. So basically I wasn't hit capped and had to use mage armor on a lot of fights... it wasn't pretty. 25mans is SO much easier (for us anyway). I was around #3 or so out of 5 dps depending on the fight as there is a good amount of movement as well and I couldn't afford the cost of living bomb a lot of time and sometimes not even pyroblast.
WWS: for naxx 10 (up to Thaddius in one night -- stupid server crash put us 30 minutes behind and killed our "undying" achievement)
http://wowwebstats.com/6utidmmusqnwm
http://wowwebstats.com/6utidmmusqnwm
Ciroccowind wrote:
I haven't tried arcane as much in instances, but I will.
Here's your problem.
Honestly, the Fire tree is broken. Frost still relies too much on frozen targets and although it CAN do nearly as good as Arcane especially with a high base-crit ontop of Frost talents, Arcane generally winds up in a good place.
As Arcane now I almost always roll with Mage Armor up. I have also stacked Spirit. I am not currently considering myself Raid Specced, as I am interested in Tradeskills, 5Mans, and Dailies. My spec still does well in Raids, though.
Remember that Trash really isn't important. It never was. Where in 5 mans this is generally true, in Raids this is always true. As others have said, the time that damage really is needed is on Boss fights. Between Arcane Meditation, Mage Armor and Glyph of Mage armor, having enough spirit will allow you to be in a ABlast -> Barrage -> FBlast -> Barrage -> Mbarrage rotation that sustains great DPS for essentially Limitless time.
This spec really focuses on cutting corners. As soon as the Tank has engaged, its time to start your rotation. Arcane Subtlety will help control your threat, as will Instant Invis. I suggest making a Macro that "powers up" your character on command. Have it pop your Trinkets, Arcane Power, and Icy Veins (if you can get it.) Pop this "power up" often until you're getting ready for a boss battle. Also, when fishing for Missile Barrage, do not be afraid to throw on PoM and then use ABlast or Frostfire Bolt. These abilities all have low cooldowns so it's great.
Essentially everything you said is absolutely correct: it takes too long for you to build up a steady dps where as everyone else in the group just lays on it quick. Hopefully the other 2 trees will be fixed in this regard, but for now the only way to keep up with Shammies and Boomkins is to be shooting right off the bat.
Here's a link to a 60/0/11 Build that should work well, but remember all the testing hasnt been done yet so it's hard to know exactly what the best talents to snag are.
I will say some benefits to a few Talents though.
Arcane Subtlety :: Needed for Threat Control
Student of the Mind + Arcane Meditation + Mage armor :: Good source of Mana income ontop of the pleathera of other options
Arcane Power :: Absolutely invaluable Talent now for Arcane, although the higher mana is bad it's 100% worth the DPS boost
Torment the Weak :: Although "Slow" doesn't effectively work on bosses, it counts as a Snare, so this will help you hit hard
Ice Flows and Arcane Flows :: Help you get that "Power Up" Macro on a faster cooldown, GREATLY increasing controllable DPS
Remember that for now, its all about Damage off the bat. Even in long fights, missing out on the early damage will break your DPS standings.
**Helpful Hint**
Paladin Tank owning the Damage Charts? He does this through reactive Damage from his Shield. What you don't see, is that you can Outdamage him 2:1 and he will still maintain Agro! If your Paladin pulls a good number of Monsters, use this Rotation:
Flamestrike
"Power Up" + PoM
Flamestrike
Blizzard Spam
This will quite litterally produce Bar-None the best AE DPS in the game, and with just you and the Paladin you'll be able to knock out huge groups of monsters with 30khp+ in a matter of seconds.
I have to agree with the OP, I used to be in the top 3 dps in MH and BT but now in a level 80 Heroic 5 man instance I'am sitting around 4th everytime.
I think my gear is good for the point in the game I'am at and I'am looking at improvong it all the time.
But I know how you feel.
You look at the dps chart and see your name down the bottom and you think why, what happened to me.
Everyone else just got better.
I guess thats why we have haste pushed down our throat now but overall dps relies on more than just the haste component.
Wait till we hit Naxx like the other boys said, that will square the ledger :)
I think my gear is good for the point in the game I'am at and I'am looking at improvong it all the time.
But I know how you feel.
You look at the dps chart and see your name down the bottom and you think why, what happened to me.
Everyone else just got better.
I guess thats why we have haste pushed down our throat now but overall dps relies on more than just the haste component.
Wait till we hit Naxx like the other boys said, that will square the ledger :)
tzsjynx wrote:
Ciroccowind wrote:
I haven't tried arcane as much in instances, but I will.
Here's your problem.
Honestly, the Fire tree is broken. Frost still relies too much on frozen targets and although it CAN do nearly as good as Arcane especially with a high base-crit ontop of Frost talents, Arcane generally winds up in a good place.
As Arcane now I almost always roll with Mage Armor up. I have also stacked Spirit. I am not currently considering myself Raid Specced, as I am interested in Tradeskills, 5Mans, and Dailies. My spec still does well in Raids, though.
Remember that Trash really isn't important. It never was. Where in 5 mans this is generally true, in Raids this is always true. As others have said, the time that damage really is needed is on Boss fights. Between Arcane Meditation, Mage Armor and Glyph of Mage armor, having enough spirit will allow you to be in a ABlast -> Barrage -> FBlast -> Barrage -> Mbarrage rotation that sustains great DPS for essentially Limitless time.
This spec really focuses on cutting corners. As soon as the Tank has engaged, its time to start your rotation. Arcane Subtlety will help control your threat, as will Instant Invis. I suggest making a Macro that "powers up" your character on command. Have it pop your Trinkets, Arcane Power, and Icy Veins (if you can get it.) Pop this "power up" often until you're getting ready for a boss battle. Also, when fishing for Missile Barrage, do not be afraid to throw on PoM and then use ABlast or Frostfire Bolt. These abilities all have low cooldowns so it's great.
Essentially everything you said is absolutely correct: it takes too long for you to build up a steady dps where as everyone else in the group just lays on it quick. Hopefully the other 2 trees will be fixed in this regard, but for now the only way to keep up with Shammies and Boomkins is to be shooting right off the bat.
Here's a link to a 60/0/11 Build that should work well, but remember all the testing hasnt been done yet so it's hard to know exactly what the best talents to snag are.
I will say some benefits to a few Talents though.
Arcane Subtlety :: Needed for Threat Control
Student of the Mind + Arcane Meditation + Mage armor :: Good source of Mana income ontop of the pleathera of other options
Arcane Power :: Absolutely invaluable Talent now for Arcane, although the higher mana is bad it's 100% worth the DPS boost
Torment the Weak :: Although "Slow" doesn't effectively work on bosses, it counts as a Snare, so this will help you hit hard
Ice Flows and Arcane Flows :: Help you get that "Power Up" Macro on a faster cooldown, GREATLY increasing controllable DPS
Remember that for now, its all about Damage off the bat. Even in long fights, missing out on the early damage will break your DPS standings.
**Helpful Hint**
Paladin Tank owning the Damage Charts? He does this through reactive Damage from his Shield. What you don't see, is that you can Outdamage him 2:1 and he will still maintain Agro! If your Paladin pulls a good number of Monsters, use this Rotation:
Flamestrike
"Power Up" + PoM
Flamestrike
Blizzard Spam
This will quite litterally produce Bar-None the best AE DPS in the game, and with just you and the Paladin you'll be able to knock out huge groups of monsters with 30khp+ in a matter of seconds.
FYI Slow is the only snare that works on bosses, and is required for a mage to be specced arcane, you are giving up a lot of DPS not having that paired with torment the weak.
Ya I just realized that. I was tired when I wrote all that out and made that Talent Tree.
I guess it comes down to the question of does having Torment the Weak 3/3 + Slow worth the GCD it takes to put Slow up there in the first place.
Ontop of that question, with Slow + Torment the weak now being used instead, would it not make sense to use a different attack as opposed to Arcane Blast (where Arcane Blast has completely outstanding Damage Per Mana it may potentially be falling behind in actual DPS.) Perhaps Frostfire Bolt, or perhaps Frostbolt + Glyph of Frostbolt?
Ontop of that, even, if Improved Frostbolt + Glyph of Frostbolt work better on Slowed Targets due to Torment the Weak, then would it not be wise to replace Fire Blast in the rotation for the very same reason, and instead replace that with yet another Improved Frostbolt?
Someone will have to run some numbers, and quite frankly it might be beyond me because there are just endless amounts of variables here. Perhaps when I reach a state that I feel comfortable in gear-wise, I'll run the same Raid twice and compare damage between
a) No slow, No Torment the Weak, using Fireblast/Arcane Blast rotation with Improved Fire Blast
b) No slow, No Torment the Weak, using Double Arcane Blast rotation
c) Slow, Torment the Weak, using Fireblast/Frostbolt rotation with Improved Frostbolt, Glyph of Frostbolt
d) Slow, Torment the Weak, using Pure Missile Rotation including only MBarrage, Arcane Barrage, and Frostbolt with Improved Frostbolt, Glyph of Frostbolt
Obviously Torment the Weak is an immensly powerful spell, the main concern is that wasting that GCD on keeping Slow every 15 seconds may cut too much damage out to make up the difference - which it very well might especially especially considering options like Frost Bolt only add to Missile Barrage proc rates. As I do not expect threat to be a problem in a raid situation, sticking primarily to Arcane spells will not be nearly as important.
Anyone tried this stuff out yet?
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 5:26pm by tzsjynx
I guess it comes down to the question of does having Torment the Weak 3/3 + Slow worth the GCD it takes to put Slow up there in the first place.
Ontop of that question, with Slow + Torment the weak now being used instead, would it not make sense to use a different attack as opposed to Arcane Blast (where Arcane Blast has completely outstanding Damage Per Mana it may potentially be falling behind in actual DPS.) Perhaps Frostfire Bolt, or perhaps Frostbolt + Glyph of Frostbolt?
Ontop of that, even, if Improved Frostbolt + Glyph of Frostbolt work better on Slowed Targets due to Torment the Weak, then would it not be wise to replace Fire Blast in the rotation for the very same reason, and instead replace that with yet another Improved Frostbolt?
Someone will have to run some numbers, and quite frankly it might be beyond me because there are just endless amounts of variables here. Perhaps when I reach a state that I feel comfortable in gear-wise, I'll run the same Raid twice and compare damage between
a) No slow, No Torment the Weak, using Fireblast/Arcane Blast rotation with Improved Fire Blast
b) No slow, No Torment the Weak, using Double Arcane Blast rotation
c) Slow, Torment the Weak, using Fireblast/Frostbolt rotation with Improved Frostbolt, Glyph of Frostbolt
d) Slow, Torment the Weak, using Pure Missile Rotation including only MBarrage, Arcane Barrage, and Frostbolt with Improved Frostbolt, Glyph of Frostbolt
Obviously Torment the Weak is an immensly powerful spell, the main concern is that wasting that GCD on keeping Slow every 15 seconds may cut too much damage out to make up the difference - which it very well might especially especially considering options like Frost Bolt only add to Missile Barrage proc rates. As I do not expect threat to be a problem in a raid situation, sticking primarily to Arcane spells will not be nearly as important.
Anyone tried this stuff out yet?
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 5:26pm by tzsjynx
Double Post =X
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 6:14pm by tzsjynx
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 6:14pm by tzsjynx
Looking at some Talent/Spell combos I stumbled upon something interesting.
Spell Impact only increases damage on Fireball, but Fireball works with everything in the Arcane tree that Frostbolt does. By picking up Improved Fireball and Ignite, it is plausible that using Slow + Fireball + Glyph of Fireball in conjuction with Ignite, Arcane Instability, Spell Power, Arcane Potency, Focus Magic and Spell Impact could consistantly outDPS a rotation using Frostbolt in it's place.
The GREAT thing about this rotation is that everything you cast will work in conjuction with your Arcane/Crit Talentset, is completely effective with Torment the weak, and consistantly pushes out huge damage without requiring fishing for procs. I still would suspect Mage armor to be the best bet over the Molten Armor crit rate, simply for mana conservation.
The downside with this build is that it forgos Icy veins while requiring an otherwise useless Slow Debuff to act almost like a Curse of the Elements for your rotation. I would guess this build does worse on trash segments than a Double Arcane Blast rotation. Fireball will also eat up .5 seconds more out of the rotation than using the perfectly-timed Frostbolt.
Build might look like this 60/11/0 and would rely on a Rotation that cycled Fireball with Arcane Barrage fishing for Missile Barrages. The nice thing about this rotation is it's super simple.
Let me know what you guys think... I actually like this ALOT I'm considering speccing this now.
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 6:13pm by tzsjynx
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 6:20pm by tzsjynx
Spell Impact only increases damage on Fireball, but Fireball works with everything in the Arcane tree that Frostbolt does. By picking up Improved Fireball and Ignite, it is plausible that using Slow + Fireball + Glyph of Fireball in conjuction with Ignite, Arcane Instability, Spell Power, Arcane Potency, Focus Magic and Spell Impact could consistantly outDPS a rotation using Frostbolt in it's place.
The GREAT thing about this rotation is that everything you cast will work in conjuction with your Arcane/Crit Talentset, is completely effective with Torment the weak, and consistantly pushes out huge damage without requiring fishing for procs. I still would suspect Mage armor to be the best bet over the Molten Armor crit rate, simply for mana conservation.
The downside with this build is that it forgos Icy veins while requiring an otherwise useless Slow Debuff to act almost like a Curse of the Elements for your rotation. I would guess this build does worse on trash segments than a Double Arcane Blast rotation. Fireball will also eat up .5 seconds more out of the rotation than using the perfectly-timed Frostbolt.
Build might look like this 60/11/0 and would rely on a Rotation that cycled Fireball with Arcane Barrage fishing for Missile Barrages. The nice thing about this rotation is it's super simple.
Let me know what you guys think... I actually like this ALOT I'm considering speccing this now.
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 6:13pm by tzsjynx
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 6:20pm by tzsjynx
Fire depends too much on fire talents to be able to do dps (it needs that extra 9% crit etc that is available to it).
assuming that the top-dps spec and rotation for arcane is similar to what it was at 70 (3.0 in sunwell):
Slow -> Abar -> Ablast -> Abar -> Ablast (refresh slow before it goes off) and use missile barrage on procs.
When it is up (and you can spare the mana) use arcane power and pom-fireballs I believe.
assuming that the top-dps spec and rotation for arcane is similar to what it was at 70 (3.0 in sunwell):
Slow -> Abar -> Ablast -> Abar -> Ablast (refresh slow before it goes off) and use missile barrage on procs.
When it is up (and you can spare the mana) use arcane power and pom-fireballs I believe.
12 posts
Anobix wrote:
If we are not arcane or maybe frost in 5-mans we will have terrible dps. Too much of our dps is based on crit (which right now you are super low on) and spelldmg. Most of our casts are about 2.5-3 seconds long while many others are using instant casts and dots. Don't expect to be higher than #3 in a 5man, just don't.
Is this statement still valid on a deep arcane build with nice gear/skill? I was anxious for running wotlk heroics but that disillusioned me (no time to raid, planning on spend most of my gametime enjoying the new instances).
So basically as a mage theres no way to top dps 5men anymore, right?
I can definitely sympathize with the OP. I haven't set foot in Naxx yet, but I'm moving along in 80 5-mans and heroics and am fighting big time to keep in the same ballpark as other DPS classes for total damage. My DPS numbers are great (somewhere around 1800 for a full run), generally due to AOE on 3+ targets and such, but other classes are just not as, well, bursty. They can get more damage in on the target before it dies than I can, which is rather annoying. I guess I just need to worry about maximizing the DPS and not worry about overall damage, as that will help more later on.
On another topic, I'm having a bit of a time figuring out what to do with my second FoF hit when I've got BF up. Should I throw the lance or the fireball? The lance will crit for a bit over 3k, and the fireball a fair bit more than that, but the fireball will do more damage without the FoF proc. So should I Frostbolt/IL + Fireball, or just Frostbolt/Fireball?
On another topic, I'm having a bit of a time figuring out what to do with my second FoF hit when I've got BF up. Should I throw the lance or the fireball? The lance will crit for a bit over 3k, and the fireball a fair bit more than that, but the fireball will do more damage without the FoF proc. So should I Frostbolt/IL + Fireball, or just Frostbolt/Fireball?
I would do frostbolt + frostbolt+fireball assuming you have the ignite talents.
Sonicnurse wrote:
Anobix wrote:
If we are not arcane or maybe frost in 5-mans we will have terrible dps. Too much of our dps is based on crit (which right now you are super low on) and spelldmg. Most of our casts are about 2.5-3 seconds long while many others are using instant casts and dots. Don't expect to be higher than #3 in a 5man, just don't.
Is this statement still valid on a deep arcane build with nice gear/skill? I was anxious for running wotlk heroics but that disillusioned me (no time to raid, planning on spend most of my gametime enjoying the new instances).
So basically as a mage theres no way to top dps 5men anymore, right?
on bosses maybe, on trash probably not. As stated, mobs don't live long enough for our spells to be handy.
Scholar
39 posts
I switched to a deep arcane build since my first post, and ran some heroics to test it out. Arcane definately has its advantages. I like the quick cast times, and the feeling of mobility it has. I can get more damage and higher dps than I was as either frost or frostfire. I can't get to the top of the DPS or damage charts, as Anobix pointed out, it is impossible for mages, but I can get to two or three depending on the other DPS classes in the group. That, I think, is the difference.
I ran three heroics yesterday, each one with a slightly different group. The first was Halls of Lightning. Pally tank, Shaman healer, Unholy Death Knight, A Frost mage, and me as Arcane. The DK did the most damage, followed by me and close behind was the other mage. I averaged 1500 DPS, the Frost Mage about 1400, and the DK was 1300. Not bad. It was kind of a messy run, but we finished. The frost mage was just using blizzard all the time for a while and was up to over 1800 DPS. He stopped when he kept drawing aggro. I was curious about the blizzard tactic. It's nice, but risky depending on the tank.
Second was Utgarde Keep. Pally tank, pally healer, two hunters (spec unknown-I know nothing about hunters), and me as Arcane again. I was last in overall damage-healer not included-and third in DPS. One hunter did almost 1700 DPS, the other was about 1400, and I was around 1200. Damage wise, I could not come close to the hunters. Sheeping took away some DPS time, but even wothout it, I would have finished 3rd at best. The two hunters are very, very good hunters, and their gear is good, too, but they don't outgear me so much that it would make that much of a difference. I have all blues, and picked up an epic ring last night, and they are about the same.
The third run was Ahn'kahet (damn that first boss!). Pally tank, priest healer, one of the hunters from UK, a ret pally, and me as arcane. Hunter was top, ret pally next, and then me. I can't recall the numbers.
I haven't run with any warlocks(well, I did, but a lazy one-500dps in Nexus) or shadowpriests. Boomkins are higher DPS and damage from my experience. DKs seem to put out more overall damage, and the same or higher DPS. Hunters are at the top. I can't touch their damage. Ret pallies are higher DPS and damage. Not much experience with warriors, but they do more overall damage, and I suspect their DPS will be higher when they get better geared. Haven't run with a rogue. Shamans are much higher DPS and damage.
So, that leaves mages towards the bottom. To get as much DPS and damage as I did, I really had to work at it. Trinkets, potions, buffs all were in heavy rotation. I never had to do that pre-patch. As fire, I usually had to back off a bit so I wouldn't take aggro. That just doesn't happen anymore. I'm not sure what's wrong here, since mages are supposed to be a purely damage dealing class, but honestly, if you need great DPS, ask a good hunter, ret pally, boomkin, DK, or Shaman. If you need CC and snacks, and a port at the end, bring a mage.
Granted, I'm not the best mage out there, but I can hold my own. I'm very sad about what I'm seeing. Blizzard does not seem to like, or know what to do with, the non-hybrid, non-pet classes. We have no other role other than pure damage. No healing or tanking, just damage. Sheep is great, but you can't build a whole class around that one talent. Without sheep, there is simply no reason to invite a mage to a group, unless you just like his playstyle or are friends with him.
And yes, I understand that boss damage is the most important, and if each boss fight was a stand around and DPS from the sidelines fight, we would do just fine. But the reality, is, many bosses require movement, change shapes, disappear, and do all sorts of strange things that do not allow us to perform well with long casting times and cooldowns on instants. As a tank ( I have a warrior tank), a mage would not be very high on my list of DPS, unless I needed CC. They die too quickly, and just can't do enough overall damage.
So, what happened? I don't feel like mages got nerfed, I feel like many of the other classes matured, grew up, and moved on.
On a side note :I haven't tried anything with a pure fireball based build, and Probably won't. The cast time is simply too long to make fireball worth it anymore. 3 seconds is an eternity. Fireball is basically dead as a main nuke.
I ran three heroics yesterday, each one with a slightly different group. The first was Halls of Lightning. Pally tank, Shaman healer, Unholy Death Knight, A Frost mage, and me as Arcane. The DK did the most damage, followed by me and close behind was the other mage. I averaged 1500 DPS, the Frost Mage about 1400, and the DK was 1300. Not bad. It was kind of a messy run, but we finished. The frost mage was just using blizzard all the time for a while and was up to over 1800 DPS. He stopped when he kept drawing aggro. I was curious about the blizzard tactic. It's nice, but risky depending on the tank.
Second was Utgarde Keep. Pally tank, pally healer, two hunters (spec unknown-I know nothing about hunters), and me as Arcane again. I was last in overall damage-healer not included-and third in DPS. One hunter did almost 1700 DPS, the other was about 1400, and I was around 1200. Damage wise, I could not come close to the hunters. Sheeping took away some DPS time, but even wothout it, I would have finished 3rd at best. The two hunters are very, very good hunters, and their gear is good, too, but they don't outgear me so much that it would make that much of a difference. I have all blues, and picked up an epic ring last night, and they are about the same.
The third run was Ahn'kahet (damn that first boss!). Pally tank, priest healer, one of the hunters from UK, a ret pally, and me as arcane. Hunter was top, ret pally next, and then me. I can't recall the numbers.
I haven't run with any warlocks(well, I did, but a lazy one-500dps in Nexus) or shadowpriests. Boomkins are higher DPS and damage from my experience. DKs seem to put out more overall damage, and the same or higher DPS. Hunters are at the top. I can't touch their damage. Ret pallies are higher DPS and damage. Not much experience with warriors, but they do more overall damage, and I suspect their DPS will be higher when they get better geared. Haven't run with a rogue. Shamans are much higher DPS and damage.
So, that leaves mages towards the bottom. To get as much DPS and damage as I did, I really had to work at it. Trinkets, potions, buffs all were in heavy rotation. I never had to do that pre-patch. As fire, I usually had to back off a bit so I wouldn't take aggro. That just doesn't happen anymore. I'm not sure what's wrong here, since mages are supposed to be a purely damage dealing class, but honestly, if you need great DPS, ask a good hunter, ret pally, boomkin, DK, or Shaman. If you need CC and snacks, and a port at the end, bring a mage.
Granted, I'm not the best mage out there, but I can hold my own. I'm very sad about what I'm seeing. Blizzard does not seem to like, or know what to do with, the non-hybrid, non-pet classes. We have no other role other than pure damage. No healing or tanking, just damage. Sheep is great, but you can't build a whole class around that one talent. Without sheep, there is simply no reason to invite a mage to a group, unless you just like his playstyle or are friends with him.
And yes, I understand that boss damage is the most important, and if each boss fight was a stand around and DPS from the sidelines fight, we would do just fine. But the reality, is, many bosses require movement, change shapes, disappear, and do all sorts of strange things that do not allow us to perform well with long casting times and cooldowns on instants. As a tank ( I have a warrior tank), a mage would not be very high on my list of DPS, unless I needed CC. They die too quickly, and just can't do enough overall damage.
So, what happened? I don't feel like mages got nerfed, I feel like many of the other classes matured, grew up, and moved on.
On a side note :I haven't tried anything with a pure fireball based build, and Probably won't. The cast time is simply too long to make fireball worth it anymore. 3 seconds is an eternity. Fireball is basically dead as a main nuke.
On the brightside with heavy-movement fights arcane really shines with the instant casts.
I have to echo Ciro's experience. I'm pretty well geared now, but hunters eat my lunch. I can stay close to DK's, but hunters are topping the charts on any run i'm in. I've tried Frost, FrostFire, and a quick test with Arcane. I'm going to try Arcane again, but it's getting a little depressing. In my opinon the cast time of frostfire is just to long. You can't stack to much haste because then you lose hit or crit. My recommendation to blizzard would be to give us a choice in talent specs. Something like, you can talent down the cast time of FrostFire, but lose the ability to do Hot Streak. With so much movement required in a lot of these fights we can't stand back and cast. FrostFire may have the highest damage output POTENTIAL, but it's possible that when you apply the theory to the actual mechanics of boss fights it isnt the best.
through the boss fights I have been through (counting raid only, no 5-man reasoning as it is not fair to compare the two).
A good hunter will top the charts, they are a bit OP at the moment (and I think their pets are bugged [buffed])
Through almost all of the raid encounters [I have seen every one of them released so far] there is plenty of room for standing still and casting, only a few have heavy movement (heigan in naxx) but that is only for 1/3rd of the fight where you can be using instants if you have the mana to spare, Sapphiron would be another. Other than that there is plenty of time to stand and cast in almost all of the other fights.
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 3:24pm by Anobix
A good hunter will top the charts, they are a bit OP at the moment (and I think their pets are bugged [buffed])
Through almost all of the raid encounters [I have seen every one of them released so far] there is plenty of room for standing still and casting, only a few have heavy movement (heigan in naxx) but that is only for 1/3rd of the fight where you can be using instants if you have the mana to spare, Sapphiron would be another. Other than that there is plenty of time to stand and cast in almost all of the other fights.
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 3:24pm by Anobix
Ok, thats good to hear. I went to Naxx for the first time last week. Tomorrow starts our raiding week again.
I topped the charts at Loetheb, Gluth, and Thaddius in 10 man. Needless to say I was pleased. I stay within the top 5 in 25 man Naxx, though I would like to do better. I am slowly improving my gear, but I'd like to see it get better.
Frostfire bolt does count as a snaring effect. Frostfire bolt also works with Torment of the weak. In 5 mans i can come in 3rd and higher. Granted I am an arcane mage.
My spell rotation that seems to work so far and i do change it as needed is
Frostfire bolt - opener
2-3 arcane blasts with an arcane barrage mixed in now and then(basically when it is up)and missles are thrown in when the barrage buff pops up
Frostfire bolt is then cast again before the snare effect is let up. then i cast accordingly.
Frostfire snare effect lasts 9 secs. With Haste gear my frostfire is about 2.5 secs or so, that gives me 9 secs after the cast to get in some of my others spells. Arcane Barrage is instant with 6 sec cool down so you can get 1-2 in with snare timer. my missles are down to 4.5 secs or so with haste gear and even fasters when i get a missle barrage proc.
PoM and Arcane power come in handy also, makes one of my frostfire bolts instant every 2 mins. Arcane Power will eat through mana like candy but it also increases damage nicely.
I also have recently hit the mage hitcap for Accuracy and you will see a major difference in damage once your hit cap. I will admit that crit damage seems to be how we do most of our damage though. I have had heroic runs where i am in first place, and I have had runs where I am in 4th. (this is in 5 mans)
My spell rotation that seems to work so far and i do change it as needed is
Frostfire bolt - opener
2-3 arcane blasts with an arcane barrage mixed in now and then(basically when it is up)and missles are thrown in when the barrage buff pops up
Frostfire bolt is then cast again before the snare effect is let up. then i cast accordingly.
Frostfire snare effect lasts 9 secs. With Haste gear my frostfire is about 2.5 secs or so, that gives me 9 secs after the cast to get in some of my others spells. Arcane Barrage is instant with 6 sec cool down so you can get 1-2 in with snare timer. my missles are down to 4.5 secs or so with haste gear and even fasters when i get a missle barrage proc.
PoM and Arcane power come in handy also, makes one of my frostfire bolts instant every 2 mins. Arcane Power will eat through mana like candy but it also increases damage nicely.
I also have recently hit the mage hitcap for Accuracy and you will see a major difference in damage once your hit cap. I will admit that crit damage seems to be how we do most of our damage though. I have had heroic runs where i am in first place, and I have had runs where I am in 4th. (this is in 5 mans)
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