fury as the new pvp buildFollow

thats something of an option, but rogues have ways of dealing with that thanks to evasion and clos. its not a perfect thing, but given that a rogue only need use dismantle on you, youve almost got to pre-emptively control the rogue. plus the rogue could just use dismantle in anticipation of a burst down; at which point youre screwed no matter what you do to hold the rogue down.

which leaves you with just flat out controlling the rogue for most of the battle; a proposition that is sketchy at best. not only do rogues have a lot of anti-CC measures they can use on their own, but theyll be supported by their team. priests and mass dispels on the other hand can be pre-emptively countered via controlled stuns, silences, fears, curse of tongues/mind-numbing poison. both CoT and MNP give you more time to interrupt the dispel (instead of relying on the crap shoot of interrupting a .5s cast) while silence, stuns, fears and other CC just plain keep the priest from doing anything. its also generally harder for priests to deal with those kinds of CC's; they dont have a magic wipe/immunity like clos, nor do they have a near-immunity to melee in the form of evasion. most priests just have trinket or the human racial (same cooldown, so humans dont have both) or for undead, trinket + wotf.

in short, its much easier to control a priest than it is to control a rogue. the only detriment the rogue faces is that they require melee range. but they only require a moments notice of melee range to use dismantle, and whether its used during or before shield wall it still serves the same purpose of gutting a defensive cooldown.



the problem with that lies in rogues "natural" defense of high dodge. add in evasion and no, you wont be disarming the rogue because itll be a wasted cooldown. you cant shockwave either because it can be dodged. shout is unreliable at best, and speccing into deep wounds actively works against it in a solo or small scale environment. the bottom line here is that dismantle provides too much of a benefit for too little cost (the cost in this case being just energy, which is effectively negligible given the benefit). being able to push a button and completely strip a class of any real offensive ability (in addition to removing a key defensive cooldown) is, as ive said before, complete and utter *********



thing is, it isnt the worst. there are stuns, control, high dodge rates, and a great deal of survivability in the rogue class. the last thing they needed was a tool to completely disable one class, which lets be honest, thats what it amounts too vs the warrior class. when disarmed we are effectively CC'ed. if specced for it we can piercing howl, which is the extent of the "control" we can exert. near everything else that isnt specced becomes useless, and many things that ARE specced still become useless. i want a higher cost of some kind attached to dismantle. make it use CP, with each CP adding 2s to the disarm duration (from a base of 0). so at 5 CP, you get a 10s disarm, 5s with a chain or the right talents. that would be a much more fitting cost given the inherent power.

Actually in arena combat unless your faced with a team that is full of casters and a rogue (euro comp) you can counter it.

Say there are at least 2 melee dps on the team and you get dismantled and focus fired. If your intercept and intervene cooldowns are up and you have a weapon chain or weapon mastery, you can kite the melee effectively cutting your incoming dmg by 2/3 or 1/2 until you get your shield back. Unless of course your stunned and have no trinket or pally with hand of freedom.

Don't get me wrong Quor I agree that an ability akin to kick (not reliant on CPs and meager in energy cost) that totally shuts down 2 classes is a little bit obsurd. I'm just saying that it can be countered by mobility.

you're forgetting that against JoJ or FF you specifically dont have to pay any kind of "toll" because there are other means of removing those effects that dont rely on your cooldowns.

there is no way of removing dismantle aside from death, HoP, or waiting it out. while HoP is a perfectly acceptable response if a melee-heavy group is focusing down a warrior, melee heavy groups typically wont be going after warriors first. theyll be choosing a much squishier target.

which brings me to...



see, therein lies the problem. the ideal time and place for this kind of strategy is when a euro comp-style team is fighting a team with a warrior. heavy melee teams wont be focusing the plate class down first, because even with no shield the warrior is still in def stance with 13k+ armor. thats not real friendly to melee burst. however, in a euro comp or other caster-heavy setup all that plate armor is useless, and all the warrior is going to be able to rely on is def stance, spell reflection and shield wall. i wouldnt be surprised to learn that dismantle removes spell reflection either, since they both have the same shield-reliant mechanic.



im looking at it from the perspective of a 5's team with 2-3 casters winding up spells on the warrior while the rogue locks him down. the warrior probably has a priest healer, and a shammy or pally of some sort, with either a mage or warlock as casting dps and a hunter or druid to round things out depending on the specific specs and stuff. based on my experience using a composition outlined like that against a euro-comp style team, trinket will be saved for the KS so i can intervene to my priest and then begin the LoS pillar humping. i sure as hell wont be using it to break a crip poison that will likely just be reapplied in one second by the OH.

in solo combat, its actually not too hard to deal with dismantle. all the things mentioned earlier like IS, break snare > intercept > disarm, or even PH kiting can work until the debuff wears off. its the group application that is the strongest part of dismantle, coupled with the fact that its nearly impossible to stop a rogue from using it in an organized group environment.

it did sort of make sense.

the point is tho, even if your partners are doing everything to help you, dismantle can either pre-empt a shield wall (disabling its use) or remove it completely after its used. the rogue needs only enough contact time with the warrior for the command to go thru.

if anything, what needs to happen is that shield wall needs to be changed so that the removal of a shield doesnt remove the effect. that is a sore oversight of the age-old change that was made so a warrior couldnt shield wall then swap to a 2h and still retain 10s of -75% damage. dismantle happens to remove a shield, which as far as the game is concerned is the same as the warrior de-equiping it.

i still wouldnt like dismantle at that point, but at least it wouldnt be the total BS it is now.



from my experience at the 1900+ level, yeah, thats pretty much the double bind youre in. its very much a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" kinda thing, and theres not a damn thing you can do about it either way. i hope you see the frustration that can cause, and appreciate my desire for a means of dealing with it (outside of the "get a healer" solution currently in game).

Well if we only have to worry about euro comp teams I wouldn't say it's that horrible. This is also why earlier in this thread I pointed out a team with two warriors, one prot one fury.

I seriously doubt any team would try to burst down a prot warrior given their mobility and massive heath pool. If the fury warrior was being burst down (or anyone for that matter) his prot warrior teammate has tons of tools at his disposal to help him out. Including safeguard, vigilance, imp spell reflect, gag order, and a nice ******* of stuns. (also TC and DS but we're talking about caster heavy teams right now)

More than enough to help him through the 5 seconds of dismantle.

I think that would be a prot warriors roll in 5's. Simply assist the melee and prevent gibbing of his teammates.

I know I'm pushing prot pvp alot but it's just so cool with the tools and mobility it has now. Not to mention we're no longer just an annoyance in the dps department.

This is pretty much what we've been fighting about this whole thread. I say it doesn't matter against a prot warrior in 1v1 or 2v2 but can be utterly devastating, given the right circumstances, in 3v3 or 5v5. However, unless we're talking like 2000 rated teams, I don't think most teams are going to be able to be coordinated enough to kill a prot warrior during the 10 seconds he is dismantled in the middle of the chaos of a 5v5. And I don't know many teams that would pick the prot warrior as 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd choice to kill. And by that time, if most of my team is dead, I already lost with or without a rogues dismantle.

The thing is is that in BGs, I'm usually up against 3 or 4 players by myself anyway. It's ONLY during those times that I feel I'm actually fighting a fair fight. Granted I almost always lose those fights, but before prot, I almost always lost 1v1 fights. Now when its 1v1 or when I have a healer, the opposition doesnt stand a chance.

Arenas start soon, we shall see what is broken and what isn't.