Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Preview of Possible Death Knight ChangesFollow

#1 Dec 02 2008 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
**
295 posts
From the main page:

Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street has posted a preview of some Death Knight changes the dev team is currently discussing. Most of these changes apply to tanking Death Knights.

Quote:

We’ve had a lot of questions about death knights recently. This is a new class, and while we’re thrilled overall with how it's been received, we always expected to have to make more changes to death knights than the classes that have had their talents under the microscope for many years.

We’re not prepared to announce specific changes to DKs yet, but here are some general areas we are tinkering with. Most of these changes apply predominantly to tanking death knights, so I avoided cross-posting this thread, but there are probably items of interest to dps specs as well.

1) Death knights seem to tank well when they have cooldowns available and take too much damage otherwise. The change here seems obvious – boost Frost presence’s mitigation while reducing the mitigation of some other abilities, especially Icebound Fortitude and Bone Shield.

2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill. This lets the ability be less of a paladin bubble in PvP for dps knights, while still letting it act more like Shield Wall for tanks. It also has the side effect of making defense slightly more attractive to death knights. (Let me add before it’s asked that yes we understand Ferals have this problem too and we are working on it.)

3) Unholy is a very popular tanking spec, largely on the strength of Bone Shield. Expect to see some buffs to tanking talents in the Blood tree especially.

4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat.

5) We don’t like the behavior where DKs feel like they are supposed to drop Death and Decay to generate runic power before a pull. It just looks goofy. We will probably lower the runic power costs of Unholy Blight and Horn of Winter, which seem to be the primary reasons to generate RP. Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp.

EDIT: I am refering to using DnD outside of combat just for the runic power (kind of like Bloodrage for warriors). It's totally legit and intended to use it to start a fight to gain threat and hurt the bad guys.

6) There are some odd situations caused by Shadow of Death that we would like to fix. The talent isn’t designed to let you escape durability damage or rez by zoning into an instance.

7) There are some annoying parts of the non-pet ghoul. We want to lower the aggro range (for less accidental pulls) and spawn the ghoul in quicker when dismounting. The ghoul, at least Unholy’s version, could also use some AE avoidance like other pets.

8) We are probably going to add a new spell to let you raise fallen allies so that you don't have to make the decision between bringing back another player (which was just supposed to be a fun bonus) and bringing back your ghoul, which can be pretty crticial for some specs.

This isn't everything we're talking about of course, just a little preview.


UPDATE: Ghostcrawler has expanded on this topic in a second post. The relevant information is below.

Quote:
There are some DK sigils missing from the game. At least one of these is tanking oriented. We plan on getting them back in soon (like the same patch with these other changes).

We are aware that DKs may be struggling more to get defense. They lack tanking weapons, shields and guns, all of which can provide defense to warriors. It's something we're working on.

We're also working on Blood AE.

We would change the Horn of Winter glyph (to something like duration).

I would not expect full itemization for two-handed tanking weapons. We wanted DKs to tank with dps two-handers (and have their mitigation benefit somewhat from the dps stats). We might add a craftable weapon or something down the road, but only if that felt like an option for the DK, not a mandatory piece of gear. You can also dual-wield tanking weapons if you want, but again, it isn't the intent that is the only way to play. (Please don't turn the rest of this thread into a discussion of whether or not DKs should be able to dual-wield.)

Rune Strike is a tanking ability. It was designed to let DKs make up for the fact that their threat suffers so much from hits that fail to land. It does suffer from a confusing tooltip (which we have since fixed) but it is the DK who must avoid the attack to get Rune Strike to light up.

We still like DKs as the "active abilities" tank. We just think it might be a little too extreme right now. Icebound Fortitude was intended to be something you use when a big, predictable damage spike is coming, but DK tanks seem to want to keep them up 100% of the time for fear that they will die without them.


Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 7:14pm by Togikagi
#2 Dec 02 2008 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
*****
13,048 posts
I'm liking the changes to HoW and the ghoul, as well as the addition of a raise spell, but I'm definitely not liking the change to IBF/Rune Strike from a PvP perspective.
#3 Dec 02 2008 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
****
4,445 posts
I can't really say what needs to be done as I can't EVER get into a group that will let me tank. Every group I get into usually has another DK higher level then me. So I really have no exp trying to tank with him.

I know when I am playing my mage DK's don't seem to make very good tanks. They seem to die easier then other classes and they don't hold aggression very well at all. I get the feeling alot of this isn't the class and only players who don't know to play the class.
____________________________
Hi
#4 Dec 02 2008 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
21 posts
fronglo, its not only that. In my point of view you find DKs to be bad tanks because they arent geared like a warrior or paladin that was tanking at lvl 70 for a while, you get some good gear at the beginning of Northrend but it isnr very tank friendly.

And yes, there are some players that dont know how to play a DK when tanking. I even got one in a Azol-Nerub(sp?) that wasnt willing to use frost presence, just because he did 15% more damage in blood presence :S... ok then cya m8 :P

regarding the changes, I pretty much like the HoW one, but I will sure miss the hard hits I got with Rune Strike. And a raise spell sounds awesome :)
#5 Dec 02 2008 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
**
276 posts
Oh please I tank all the time on my DK and never have a problem. Holding hate is not an issue, its my lack of armor when compared to a war or even druid. I think healers just have a harder time with DK's over all.
#6 Dec 02 2008 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
*****
13,048 posts
Nxtwave wrote:
Oh please I tank all the time on my DK and never have a problem. Holding hate is not an issue, its my lack of armor when compared to a war or even druid. I think healers just have a harder time with DK's over all.

Yeah, but what level are you? DK tanking is much harder at 80, though granted, you should be specced into Toughness, Anticipation, Frigid Dreadplate, Blade Barrier, etc.
#7REDACTED, Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 9:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Am I the only one that thinks this is insane. In terms of PVE at 60 I had grouped with a 70 warrior friend in full t2 pvp gear. Using a dps meter he would outdamage me by 200 or so easy as would be expected. Then I grouped with a 57 Deathknight. He outdamaged me by just over 200 dps. I dueled my first dk in Hellfire. I'm a enhance shaman and used every ability available to me. The few times I did hit him my damage output was far below what I'd seen in the past. I took him to 80% health used two healing waves on myself and he killed me in well under 30 seconds. In every group with a dk to date I am outdamaged by almost 200 dps. My friend the 70 warrior took on a 67 dk and lost in under 30 seconds. We both love pvp and I am trying to get high enough to run the arena with him. At this point I am sick to death of deathknights. Granted I can make my own and have, I even completed the quests and got all my starting gear. The reality of the situation is that I could care less if another class outdamages me in pve. PVP is why I am playing this game. If every dk I run into in pvp wipes the floor with me how do I counter that. Level my dk and delete the shaman I've spent months working on to get to this point. What's the point then. Everyone that wants to pvp deletes their mains and creates dk's. The bg's are 10vs10 dk battles. I understand the concept of a hero class and I completely understand why everyone would expect them to be tougher than the other classes. Still I have to wonder how that would fit into world pvp. Maybe this is just all a phase and dk's are only overpowered til 80. Fine let everyone that wants to play pvp start characters at level 80. Or maybe you could just eliminate dk's from pvp. Maybe as other hero classes are released they get their own pvp instances. I'm sure I'll see plenty of flame for saying something bad about dk's. Apparently I was one of only 10 people that were in the burning crusade zones not playing a deathknight after the release of Wrath. Regardless of what your thoughts are I would say http://jadefury.blogspot.com/ has some interesting information concerning dk's.
#8 Dec 02 2008 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,396 posts
Ohsiris wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks this is insane. In terms of PVE at 60 I had grouped with a 70 warrior friend in full t2 pvp gear. Using a dps meter he would outdamage me by 200 or so easy as would be expected. Then I grouped with a 57 Deathknight. He outdamaged me by just over 200 dps.

Ok... I really have no intention of being snarky here, but if your Warrior friend at 70 is being matched by a level 57, then I can only see two possibilities:

1. He was Prot. Was he Prot? I don't know, I honestly have no idea what kind of DPS a Prot Warrior puts out at 70 or otherwise. Either way, that had something to do with it or...

2. He sucks. Maybe his spec sucks, maybe he's a horrible player, but to be matched by someone 13 levels below him, there has to be some suckage going on somewhere.

I'm sorry, but that's really the only two options.

Quote:
I dueled my first dk in Hellfire. I'm a enhance shaman and used every ability available to me. The few times I did hit him my damage output was far below what I'd seen in the past. I took him to 80% health used two healing waves on myself and he killed me in well under 30 seconds. My friend the 70 warrior took on a 67 dk and lost in under 30 seconds. In every group with a dk to date I am outdamaged by almost 200 dps. We both love pvp and I am trying to get high enough to run the arena with him. At this point I am sick to death of deathknights. Granted I can make my own and have, I even completed the quests and got all my starting gear. The reality of the situation is that I could care less if another class outdamages me in pve. PVP is why I am playing this game. If every dk I run into in pvp wipes the floor with me how do I counter that. Level my dk and delete the shaman I've spent months working on to get to this point. What's the point then. Everyone that wants to pvp deletes their mains and creates dk's. The bg's are 10vs10 dk battles. I understand the concept of a hero class and I completely understand why everyone would expect them to be tougher than the other classes. Still I have to wonder how that would fit into world pvp. Maybe this is just all a phase and dk's are only overpowered til 80. Fine let everyone that wants to play pvp start characters at level 80. Or maybe you could just eliminate dk's from pvp. Maybe as other hero classes are released they get their own pvp instances. I'm sure I'll see plenty of flame for saying something bad about dk's. Apparently I was one of only 10 people that were in the burning crusade zones not playing a deathknight after the release of Wrath. Regardless of what your thoughts are I would say http://jadefury.blogspot.com/ has some interesting information concerning dk's.

To be honest, I'm not really seeing anything you're seeing. I've beaten Death Knights--Blood Knights, mind you, the ones with the highest sustained DPS, the ones that are supposed to be the best for PvE--by up to 200 DPS, and my gear is not all that good. I was Resto all throughout the end of TBC, so my Enhancement gear is made up entirely of Northrend greens and blues.

As far as PvP goes... Death Knights are easily one of the best-equipped classes for one-on-one PvP. They've got lots of tools, plate armor and lots of damage reduction abilities, great single-target DPS (lots of it armor-bypassing if they're Frost or Unholy), and self-healing... Bottom line, they're not lacking, and there aren't a lot of specs/classes that should beat them one-on-one, gear and level not withstanding. Especially concerning melee opponents. On top of that, you're playing a Shaman, one of the notoriously worst classes in small-scale PvP. That's not a good match-up. Still, I've killed all three specs with my Shaman in some good fights. (Earthmother bless instant HW's from MW. Oh, and Feral Spirits.)

I personally fear Ret Pallies much more at the moment. Both on my Shaman and my Death Knight.
#9 Dec 02 2008 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
**
947 posts
At lvl80 if you pick up all the crafted tanking Blues (Daunting, Saronite) and all the top-end quest rewards, tanking as a DK isnt a problem. I havent had a single issue tanking at 80, simple as that, although granted I run with guildmates who know how to play.

The changes are mostly ok, but I disagree with the nerf to Bone Shield since it isnt a constant uptime skill and costs a Rune. If it cost RP and had 8 charges I'd say no problem, but for something that screws up your rotation to use mid-fight I dont see a need to nerf it. I do agree that Icebound Fortitude could do with some scaling based on defense though, at the moment it's a bit on the tough side in PvP with a low cost and 1min cooldown.

Ideally I'd like to see it with 30% damage reduction scaling up to 60% when you're at Heroic-level Defense skill and uncrittable, I think that would balance nicely.

Bone Shield, if they nerf the mitigation, should have its while-active damage bonus increased to 3 or 5%, to make it more worth spending Runes on.

Runic Strike frankly I never liked and still dont like, I wish they'd change it to Runic Charge and allow it to empower your next Strike move with the same effect, this 'waiting for melee' thing is so 2004. Nerfing the damage output just guarantees nobody will use it in a DPS capacity, which I find a bit dumb to be honest. RP damage spells like DC and Gargoyle just dont do enough damage per RP, RS was a nice change in that it was very efficient. I would like to see Gargoyle buffed in that case.

Incidentally, I love this "RS wasnt designed to be a Rogue killer"... looking at the game right now, is anything designed to be a Rogue killer?
#10 Dec 02 2008 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
*****
13,048 posts
Sinstralis wrote:
Incidentally, I love this "RS wasnt designed to be a Rogue killer"... looking at the game right now, is anything designed to be a Rogue killer?

Warriors in their current form with Bladestorm definitely are. Mages are as well. Demo Locks, too (600% armor and Combustion aura or whatever they get in demon form hurts a lot).

DKs are definitely in the category of rogue killers currently. I just don't think they want us 2-shotting rogues (which is easily possible, I've heard of 10k RSs).
#11 Dec 02 2008 at 11:40 PM Rating: Decent
**
947 posts
Ha you read Jayde's blog I see.

While it's true that RS is high damage, remember it is just replacing the old melee swing that didnt strike so the damage over two melee swing timers is actually the same. I think I'd rather see a change like 250% weapon damage, but cannot crit. Problem solved at both ends, although they'd have to change the Glyph for it.

I'd also like to point out that in my book, Mages and Warriors are the two most OP classes at the moment, but because they have had such a chequered history it isnt politically correct to say so. No DR on Slow is just a joke, and Whirlwind is better than Divine Storm ever was for Paladins and yet gets no whines at all. The changes to Mages have left them basically immune to most Rogue tactics for pinning someone down, while those same tactics remain spectacularly effective against Warlocks as some kind of sacrificial offering to Rogue players eager for caster blood. Sure 51pts Demo can complicate things, but having played a Warlock until WotLK and in beta to 77, I truly don't believe any Rogue will have trouble with it since you cant use it when Stunned.

Once Mages and Warriors are brought back under heel, DK anti-Rogue ability won't look so outstanding, and I'm rather hoping Blizz don't wind up creating yet another class that either dominates or dies horribly depending entirely on who gets the opening shot. I notice all significant abilities up for the nerf (BS/IBF/RS) are those which cause Rogues the most trouble.
#12 Dec 03 2008 at 7:32 AM Rating: Decent
I'm pretty excited about the part where they are going to add more tanking abilities to Blood Tree. I Leveled to 70 as blood and absolutely loved it, but was getting slaughtered when trying to tank. I respecced Frost because I really wanted to tank (not insinuating unholy can't tank) and it has been great.

Someone mentioned above they are having issues taking damage. I've had none. My druid healer friend said that he barely has to heal.I do carry a set of tanking gear and leveling gear. The only things I've tanked are UK and Nexus, both with great ease with parties of 70-74. I'm currently 72 and was tanking fine at 71. I'd be really happy if they boosted Blood tanking abilities.
#13 Dec 03 2008 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,039 posts
Quote:
Warriors in their current form with Bladestorm definitely are. Mages are as well. Demo Locks, too (600% armor and Combustion aura or whatever they get in demon form hurts a lot).

DKs are definitely in the category of rogue killers currently. I just don't think they want us 2-shotting rogues (which is easily possible, I've heard of 10k RSs).


A smart rogue just needs to keep running through to the dk to get RS to cancel itself (similar to how you'd run through a caster to prevent them from nuking you). RS, like heroic strike on a warrior will cite "Line of sight" problems if something runs behind you when the attack is supposed to go off. another comment on that, RS tends to take the 20 RP activation cost well before the strike goes off. I'm not sure if its refunded if you get LOS'd. I've been using a swing timer to try and figure out exactly when RS hits go off but unfortunately swing timers are dependent on knowing when the last swing happened.

On a side note, a smart dk will do what they can to keep chains on and keep backing away from the rogue so he cant be stepped through.
Up to and including today, I've only met 2 people in pvp (not just rogue, but all classes) that used the "run through the rune strike" strategy.

tldr: nubs dont know how to avoid melee attacks

Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 10:32am by EnthalpyTheBurninator
#14 Dec 03 2008 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,875 posts
Quote:
1) Death knights seem to tank well when they have cooldowns available and take too much damage otherwise. The change here seems obvious – boost Frost presence’s mitigation while reducing the mitigation of some other abilities, especially Icebound Fortitude and Bone Shield. bone shield needs not less mitagation imo, but less charges... 3 would be aces to fix it; make a early frost talent (rank 1 or rank 2) raise armor/hp contribution of frost pres by 3%/2% per point, 3 ranks

2) One idea we have for Icebound Fortitude is to scale the mitigation based on defense skill. This lets the ability be less of a paladin bubble in PvP for dps knights, while still letting it act more like Shield Wall for tanks. It also has the side effect of making defense slightly more attractive to death knights. (Let me add before it’s asked that yes we understand Ferals have this problem too and we are working on it.) perfect idea, i like it

3) Unholy is a very popular tanking spec, largely on the strength of Bone Shield. Expect to see some buffs to tanking talents in the Blood tree especially. give blood a threat gen cleave (high threat but maybe kinda weak.. 50% weapon dmg to 3 targets? but raises parry chance (15%)on use? 15 second cd?) buff spell deflection to 15/30/45% and give blood aura a passive +parry % also, and blood would be right where it should be for tanking imo

4) Rune Strike was intended to be a reactive tanking tool, not a rogue killer. We will probably chill its weapon damage and increase its threat. how bout a cd instead? 12 seconds, with a talent somewhere to reduce it by 2/4 seconds, 2 ranks?

5) We don’t like the behavior where DKs feel like they are supposed to drop Death and Decay to generate runic power before a pull. It just looks goofy. We will probably lower the runic power costs of Unholy Blight and Horn of Winter, which seem to be the primary reasons to generate RP. Horn of Winter will probably be something like no cost, 30 sec cooldown, generates 10 rp. i like that change to horn of winter, 100%

EDIT: I am refering to using DnD outside of combat just for the runic power (kind of like Bloodrage for warriors). It's totally legit and intended to use it to start a fight to gain threat and hurt the bad guys.

6) There are some odd situations caused by Shadow of Death that we would like to fix. The talent isn’t designed to let you escape durability damage or rez by zoning into an instance. ive had a TON of situations of it not proccing... fix that talent :(

7) There are some annoying parts of the non-pet ghoul. We want to lower the aggro range (for less accidental pulls) and spawn the ghoul in quicker when dismounting. The ghoul, at least Unholy’s version, could also use some AE avoidance like other pets. give the unholy permapet a talent for AE avoidance and maybe some extra hp/5, so it isnt a burden to heal... given how squishy it is

8) We are probably going to add a new spell to let you raise fallen allies so that you don't have to make the decision between bringing back another player (which was just supposed to be a fun bonus) and bringing back your ghoul, which can be pretty crticial for some specs. lol, thats uhh.... great? wooo? until Richards start rezzing people outside of group when they die questing lol.... no drawback = no reason not to, make that new ability party/raid ONLY... it needs to be done


opinions in bold

Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 1:39pm by mongoosexcore
#15 Dec 03 2008 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
**
728 posts
Aww don't hurt bone shield please. Bone shield only has 4 charges and in AoE pulls is wiped off in less than a second. Sure its great for bosses, but does not need its reduction lowered... Maybe if you guys made it a trainable skill, but not for a talent deep in unholy.
#16 Dec 03 2008 at 12:46 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
We are aware that DKs may be struggling more to get defense. They lack tanking weapons, shields and guns, all of which can provide defense to warriors. It's something we're working on.


W00T we might get shields
#17 Dec 03 2008 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
***
1,502 posts
If DKS get shields, we may as well have rolled warriors.

Personally, now I've tanked a couple instances (Nexus and both parts of AN) I think DK shows some serious potential as a tank and the real issue here is gear, not spells or talents.

We still have to hit 540 Def cap in order to be uncrittable, and we need to do that without a shield. It's possible, but most of us haven't got that far yet. I have to say WotLK has very few tanking plate quest rewards, and as a result DK tanks are undergeared in comparison to the others who have probably been raiding MTs pre-expansion, and as a result have mitigation up the wazoo in comparison to us.

This is why we seem to be a lot of healers' least favourite tanks at the mo. Although personally I havent had any complaints there either, I think we've also been the victim of bad word of mouth. I think early on a lot of DKs were attempting to tank things in Blood Presence and ignoring their mitigation abilities due to a low IQ. The rest of us have been tarred with the same brush.

In my experience, I take more damage than some of the tanks we usually run with, although my healers aren't in danger of running out of mana, but I am generating aggro like nobody's business. Slap some decent gear on us and I'm betting cries of "LF Tank for <insert instance> DK preferred" won't be far away.

While I welcome any of these proposed changes, particularly the overhaul of Blood. It's possibly my favourite tree, but I tank as Frost as it's just simply that much better. I'd quite like to run as a Blood tank.

Also; GIEF TANKING SIGIL!

Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 5:02pm by Rasen
#18 Dec 03 2008 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
*****
19,369 posts
Choobacka wrote:
Quote:
We are aware that DKs may be struggling more to get defense. They lack tanking weapons, shields and guns, all of which can provide defense to warriors. It's something we're working on.


W00T we might get shields


More likely re-itemization. Or some more DK stat changes, ie: STR = 1 DEF etc. Or similar.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 4:55pm by MentalFrog
#19 Dec 03 2008 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
**
500 posts
I like my perma-ghoul, but using it has become a nuisance in an instance. It dies all the time, and we're stuck with the cool down timer. So I do like this change.
#20 Dec 03 2008 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
My warrior friend dueled a 70 dk. My fault for leaving that out. He's specced fury I believe although being somewhat new and not having played a warrior I'm not sure I'm exactly correct. He's actually quite good at pvp and the point isn't that he lost to a 70 deathknight but rather that he only got the dk down to about 80% health and the dk did over 11k worth of damage to him in under 30 seconds. As for what I've seen I admit it's been rather limited but I know for a fact that when I read the combat text to see actual damage dealt he hit me quite regularly for 200-500 damage and I registered barely any hits on him and saw a couple at 85 total damage. At the time I was using two one handers both around 44.4 dps which until the wrath weapons was very good damage at my level. Personally I prefer PVP to PVE. I ran alot of duels on my shaman in the 20-29 bracket and again 50-59. I pretty much always ranked in the top 3 in total kills and damage dealt. Pallies definately killed me more than anyone but I got every one of them back. I never really had alot of problem with any particular class and you learn pretty quickly who the really good players are. There were definately a few that gave me some licks but not without showing some scars themselves. Of course I don't yet know what 80 has to offer for shaman pvp but I am definately hoping that I can still hold my own.
#21 Dec 03 2008 at 5:40 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Choobacka wrote:
Quote:
We are aware that DKs may be struggling more to get defense. They lack tanking weapons, shields and guns, all of which can provide defense to warriors. It's something we're working on.



W00T we might get shields

More likely re-itemization. Or some more DK stat changes, ie: STR = 1 DEF etc. Or similar.

ooooo ive got like 400 str + defense from items = 1337 tank

Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 8:42pm by Choobacka
#22 Dec 04 2008 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,396 posts
Ohsiris wrote:
My warrior friend dueled a 70 dk. My fault for leaving that out. He's specced fury I believe although being somewhat new and not having played a warrior I'm not sure I'm exactly correct. He's actually quite good at pvp and the point isn't that he lost to a 70 deathknight but rather that he only got the dk down to about 80% health and the dk did over 11k worth of damage to him in under 30 seconds. As for what I've seen I admit it's been rather limited but I know for a fact that when I read the combat text to see actual damage dealt he hit me quite regularly for 200-500 damage and I registered barely any hits on him and saw a couple at 85 total damage. At the time I was using two one handers both around 44.4 dps which until the wrath weapons was very good damage at my level. Personally I prefer PVP to PVE. I ran alot of duels on my shaman in the 20-29 bracket and again 50-59. I pretty much always ranked in the top 3 in total kills and damage dealt. Pallies definately killed me more than anyone but I got every one of them back. I never really had alot of problem with any particular class and you learn pretty quickly who the really good players are. There were definately a few that gave me some licks but not without showing some scars themselves. Of course I don't yet know what 80 has to offer for shaman pvp but I am definately hoping that I can still hold my own.

Well, if we're just operating on war stories (which seems to be the basis for your entire argument), my buddy has been destroying DK's in Northrend with his Warrior. As all three specs. That means including Prot.

If you're not familiar with the ebb and flow of the game's balance in different level brackets, let me break it down for you: Enhancement Shaman are absurdly powerful in the 30-59 level range, peaking in the 40-49 brackets. From that point on they basically free-fall into becoming one of the least powerful classes at 70. All Shaman except Resto when paired with a Warrior in 2v2 were one of the least represented classes in PvP throughout the entirety of TBC because they were simply not effective when built into other teams; with one other exception (Resto/Paladin/Warrior) in 3v3, there was no reason to build them into any team because anything they could do could be done better by another class. They were Windfury and Bloodlust bots.

Duels, especially low-level duels, and ganking world PvP are also not good measures of PvP. There are certain classes that are just monsters 1v1, DPS vs. DPS. DK's happen to be one of those classes. I'd wager you've likely fought very little else but DK's since hitting Outland if you just did so recently. How do you know they're overpowered compared to anything else? I think you've built up a large misconception for yourself of how the balance of power should be, and it's been amplified by the overabundance of DK's to which you've compared yourself and your friend who, I'm sorry to say, just sounds like a bad Warrior.

My recommendation is to give it time. Give it a lot more time. Like, until-you-hit-80-and-start-actively-PvP-ing time. Then you can come back and make a reasonable judgement call. If DK's really are that gamebreakingly overpowered at 80, you won't be the only one saying so.
#23 Dec 04 2008 at 5:51 AM Rating: Decent
***
3,909 posts
Gaudion wrote:
Well, if we're just operating on war stories (which seems to be the basis for your entire argument), my buddy has been destroying DK's in Northrend with his Warrior. As all three specs. That means including Prot.


Protection is oddly useful in PvP at the moment. I wouldn't spec it over arms, but I see a number of prot warriors doing well in battlegrounds and general world PvP. Your buddy's anecdotes aren't that surprising.
#24 Dec 04 2008 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
Back to the original topic, I have a really rough theory regarding improving blood spec tanking.

Blood spec relies on healing to keep itself alive, however when you move into frost pressence, you lose 2% of the healing. Maybe add a talent or add to blood aura a skill that would allow frost presence to add healing, maybe something like 1/2 blood pressence or 1% damage dealt is healed while in frost pressense. This way you spec frost for mitigation and spec blood for self healing, creating 2 styles of tanking. Obviously numbers would have to be fiddled with, but it might be a decent theory. I do understand it would be a bit out of place to have the blood tree modify the frost pressence, but it could be worded to be a modified blood aura to make sense. Just a thought.

Another general thought that could go into a lower tier of a tree (possibly blood just for added tanking skills in blood) would be something where the damage of your weapon goes into def rating or armor. Maybe 10% weapons max damage is added to your def rating. Or max weapon damage is added to armor.

I'm not claiming these are perfect by anymeans, I'm just brainstorming and throwing these out there.

#25 Dec 04 2008 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
*****
13,048 posts
Gikkers wrote:
Back to the original topic, I have a really rough theory regarding improving blood spec tanking.

Blood spec relies on healing to keep itself alive, however when you move into frost pressence, you lose 2% of the healing. Maybe add a talent or add to blood aura a skill that would allow frost presence to add healing, maybe something like 1/2 blood pressence or 1% damage dealt is healed while in frost pressense. This way you spec frost for mitigation and spec blood for self healing, creating 2 styles of tanking. Obviously numbers would have to be fiddled with, but it might be a decent theory. I do understand it would be a bit out of place to have the blood tree modify the frost pressence, but it could be worded to be a modified blood aura to make sense. Just a thought.

Another general thought that could go into a lower tier of a tree (possibly blood just for added tanking skills in blood) would be something where the damage of your weapon goes into def rating or armor. Maybe 10% weapons max damage is added to your def rating. Or max weapon damage is added to armor.

I'm not claiming these are perfect by anymeans, I'm just brainstorming and throwing these out there.

Blood Aura is in no way related to Blood Presence. The two are not linked at all.

Neither should either matter. DKs hardly tank from doing damage; if they did, they wouldn't be using DnD, as it's an inefficient use of runes (especially with the lower amount of AP they'll have because of their gear).
#26 Dec 05 2008 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
**
889 posts
I really hope they're plan is to make Bone Shield and IBF have lower mitigation (proportionate to the buff they're give Frost Presence), only while you're in Frost Presence. I'd like Bone Shield to still be useful when I'm solo'ing in Blood Presence =/
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 178 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (178)