Ok, let me preface this with I am new to the boards. Obviously, this is my first post. I been reading for quite some time tho. I understand that flaming may/may not occur. My question is this. Doing my own bit of math and checking it on other boards (EJ) I come up with this. The damage caused by Instant Poison is .3(300+.1*AP) and for Wound poison .5(231+.04*AP). Please correct me if I am wrong. This yields results of 90+.03AP for instant and 115.5+.02AP for wound. Setting those two equal to each other and solving for AP you find that in order for instant to out DPS wound you need to have 2550 AP. This is with 5/5 in Improved poisons. My current AP is 1967 which is below the required 2550 to make instant put out the same DPS as wound. I do not raid/group often as I usually am soloing, at least in this part of my WoW career. Since I do not get raid/group buffs and my AP stays relatively the same barring any trinket pops wouldnt the better choice be wound poison as a muti rogue? My spec being the 51/17/3 posted in the sticky. If thats the case is it even worth putting the 5 points into Improved Poisons when I wouldnt even use instant solo. I understand that the mechanics of my theory falls apart as soon as you get into a group and bump your AP up over 2550. Please tell me I am wrong and missing something. A lot of the posts I read say to go wound/wound unless you have 4/5 or 5/5 improved then to go instant/instant. I have yet to take into account any increases due to precision.
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Wound does more DPS until you get to a ridiculous amount of AP in solo. With 50% proc rate versus IP's 20%, it's very heavily balanced in WP's favor.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=4;mid=122792076237431564;num=20;page=1
I think what Theo said there is pretty much true. It makes sense really; wounding generally > instant but instant scales (better?). Which is only logical, since I've got the feeling the *idea* would be to use instant in raids rather than wounding. Basically you already pointed it out yourself; stick with wound/wound until you get enough AP.
One thing though;
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wouldnt the better choice be wound poison as a muti rogue?
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A lot of the posts I read say to go wound/wound unless you have 4/5 or 5/5 improved then to go instant/instant.
You wouldn't ever want to go instant/instant as a muti rogue.
5 posts
yeah i made that instant/instant up cause i couldnt remember the combo off the top of my head. regardless i felt it irrelevant since the option is to go wound/wound. Strange I must have missed that post from theo. That being the case, is the 5 points spent in Improved poisons a waste when soloing? Would it be beneficial to spend them elsewhere? Unfortunately I have not looked much into where the points would go..
i'm at a point where i feel getting improved poisons isnt really worth it. you need 4 points to make IP = WP in overall dps for levelling, and you need high AP later on to make it better than WP. so basically you spend 4 points to get no DPS increase , then you only get a DPS increase from that last point. it feels kinda crappy tbh.
later on, in raids and the like, i'm willing to be that it might get better because you will be using DP for envenom, but i'm not sure how much more dps that will be compared to just using double WP
A spreadsheet should answer that question.
later on, in raids and the like, i'm willing to be that it might get better because you will be using DP for envenom, but i'm not sure how much more dps that will be compared to just using double WP
A spreadsheet should answer that question.
5 posts
Funny thing is, I put all my stuff into the spreadsheet and it tells me that if I use WP/IP my DPS is 10 higher than WP/WP... not that 10 is a huge difference...
probably a statistical difference due to a faster offhand.
Let's not discount IP too quickly. Apart from slightly better scaling with AP, it just does more damage per application (IP-IX is ~350 @ lvl 80) compared to 231 static for WP-VII. And don't forget that both can crit, which is more a factor for Mutilate where crit is such a more vital stat, but important for combat and HaT builds as well.
The vital stat to look at is application percentage which makes WP perform better while leveling (i.e. before IP starts getting really good) and in situations where uptime on target is short (i.e. trash or quest mobs). This also is why the "4-5 Imp Poison points" idea is so common. Increasing the application percentage is what helps push IP's performance.
From what I recall, the tipping point was lower than the 2550AP proposed by the OP. I want to say it was just under 2kAP @ lvl80, but I don't have the numbers in front of me and memory is untrustworthy. As a personal rule of thumb I've been using life-expectancy of target: Short = WP, Long = IP (also adding DP to fuel Mutilate).
For soloing I found (actually after being corrected on these here boards) that WP/WP in my Serrated-Muti build worked wonders.
Good first topic though. Rated up for goodness. Cheers!
The vital stat to look at is application percentage which makes WP perform better while leveling (i.e. before IP starts getting really good) and in situations where uptime on target is short (i.e. trash or quest mobs). This also is why the "4-5 Imp Poison points" idea is so common. Increasing the application percentage is what helps push IP's performance.
From what I recall, the tipping point was lower than the 2550AP proposed by the OP. I want to say it was just under 2kAP @ lvl80, but I don't have the numbers in front of me and memory is untrustworthy. As a personal rule of thumb I've been using life-expectancy of target: Short = WP, Long = IP (also adding DP to fuel Mutilate).
For soloing I found (actually after being corrected on these here boards) that WP/WP in my Serrated-Muti build worked wonders.
Good first topic though. Rated up for goodness. Cheers!
5 posts
Ooo yea I see what you mean. I guess I jumped on the bandwagon in the sticky for the 51/17/3 build. Yes that build (the 51/17/3) is probably optimal for raiding/grouping. Call me a loaner, but I tend to solo a lot (farming mats, leveling, just tooling around). I see the muti/serrated build that theo's rogue has and it looks more along the lines of what I was thinking. In my original post i just couldnt see why having the 5 points in Improved Poisons would benefit me when soloing if i never use Instant. Yeah, my gear is mediocre, but I dont get a lot of time to play for raiding and whatnot and yeah, I admit I am an advocate of welfare epics.
I assume the build that theo has on his rogue armory is close if not the same muti/serrated build you are talking about.
On a lighter note, I am finally getting my DPS up above 1100. I know it is a faulty number as it tends to be on trash mobs when the fight doesn't last long. But I still hold the DPS number when fighting the shadow renevants in Wintergrasp for mats. Again they are short lived compared to boss fights, but at least they last longer than my 4 second Cheap Shot which is more than I can say for most of the trash I fight. I think I finally sucked it up and strictly followed shadowpanther.net instead of trying to make my own decisions. I was trying to balance my stats here and there as I earned gear along the way. Not give up too much crit while keeping my AP up and trying to keep my +hit up as well. All tat was getting me was 800 DPS :(. After saying ***** it and going by the PvE list my DPS jumped a lot. Just goes to show that trying to put your own spin on things isnt necessarily better than someone who has already planned things out for you.. :)
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I assume the build that theo has on his rogue armory is close if not the same muti/serrated build you are talking about.
On a lighter note, I am finally getting my DPS up above 1100. I know it is a faulty number as it tends to be on trash mobs when the fight doesn't last long. But I still hold the DPS number when fighting the shadow renevants in Wintergrasp for mats. Again they are short lived compared to boss fights, but at least they last longer than my 4 second Cheap Shot which is more than I can say for most of the trash I fight. I think I finally sucked it up and strictly followed shadowpanther.net instead of trying to make my own decisions. I was trying to balance my stats here and there as I earned gear along the way. Not give up too much crit while keeping my AP up and trying to keep my +hit up as well. All tat was getting me was 800 DPS :(. After saying ***** it and going by the PvE list my DPS jumped a lot. Just goes to show that trying to put your own spin on things isnt necessarily better than someone who has already planned things out for you.. :)
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I think Theo went up Sub for Prep, which I didn't (just checked, yup he did). This* is what I was leveling as for the last 3 to 80. But I wouldn't say it's the best build in the world or anything. Worked great for chain pulling closely clustered quest mobs though.
Gear stat weights are guidelines, nothing more. And mainly they're guidelines for raid. In 5-toon instances no fights really last long enough for small differences in DPS output between two pieces of gear to mean much. Those small differences are what min/maxing is all about, not casual players. Don't get too twisted up by trying to optimize until you're raiding or on an arena team. Same goes for raiding builds. Sounds like you got your head on straight about it, just a friendly reminder.
With that said though, if you look at what stats the new gear gave you, it should be obvious which stats are to blame for your increase in damage. Take a look at the new gear compared to the old and learn what seems to be working. Easiest way to learn about stat weights, really.
Hmmm.... damn I sound pretentious ;)
Good luck out there and happy hunting!
*Edit: At one point I flipped Initiative for Imp. Evis and saw good numbers, but ended going back as I preferred the CB generation. Just wanted to note that for completeness.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 2:18am by TherionSaysWhat
Gear stat weights are guidelines, nothing more. And mainly they're guidelines for raid. In 5-toon instances no fights really last long enough for small differences in DPS output between two pieces of gear to mean much. Those small differences are what min/maxing is all about, not casual players. Don't get too twisted up by trying to optimize until you're raiding or on an arena team. Same goes for raiding builds. Sounds like you got your head on straight about it, just a friendly reminder.
With that said though, if you look at what stats the new gear gave you, it should be obvious which stats are to blame for your increase in damage. Take a look at the new gear compared to the old and learn what seems to be working. Easiest way to learn about stat weights, really.
Hmmm.... damn I sound pretentious ;)
Good luck out there and happy hunting!
*Edit: At one point I flipped Initiative for Imp. Evis and saw good numbers, but ended going back as I preferred the CB generation. Just wanted to note that for completeness.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 2:18am by TherionSaysWhat
5 posts
Is the 3 points in serrated blades worth more than the 9% dmg increase HfB in the 51/17/3 build?
and if serrated blades is worth that much how does a build like this look?
45/13/13
again this build will be used for solo where you sneak up, cheap shot, muti, evis, and muti again if needed...
Thats what I am doing now with the 51/17/3 build and typically I can kill the mob before the 6 sec of Overkill runs out. I would think the 20% increased damage to Evis would be beneficial. That and i give up the 5 pts in MoD for filling out precision and 3 in close quarters. The one point in remorseless is hanging there as a filler at this point and since I would only use Wound poison, Deadly brew goes away. Please... flame away. Its my first try and again it is purely for soloing.
and if serrated blades is worth that much how does a build like this look?
45/13/13
again this build will be used for solo where you sneak up, cheap shot, muti, evis, and muti again if needed...
Thats what I am doing now with the 51/17/3 build and typically I can kill the mob before the 6 sec of Overkill runs out. I would think the 20% increased damage to Evis would be beneficial. That and i give up the 5 pts in MoD for filling out precision and 3 in close quarters. The one point in remorseless is hanging there as a filler at this point and since I would only use Wound poison, Deadly brew goes away. Please... flame away. Its my first try and again it is purely for soloing.
Highly recommend at least taking Relentless Strikes, as a 1 point talent is was godly, and even at 5 points it's the best energy regeneration talent you could possibly get. Free/10 energy finishers? It's hard to say no.
Assuming the build was just for soloing its pretty decent I think.
The only problem is that it would absolutely suck in a group. No CttC or HFB is bad. And I'm going to go with HFB>Serrated Blades, though I'm not entirely sure. But ArPen isn't that good a stat, and HFB is 9% more damage, which means bigger Mutis, bigger Envenoms and Bigger Eviscerates.
The only problem is that it would absolutely suck in a group. No CttC or HFB is bad. And I'm going to go with HFB>Serrated Blades, though I'm not entirely sure. But ArPen isn't that good a stat, and HFB is 9% more damage, which means bigger Mutis, bigger Envenoms and Bigger Eviscerates.
Serrated/Muti wasn't optimal for 5-toon instances, but it certainly didn't suck in them either. I found it actually performed better than Combat in my groups. Lacking HfB was a drag in groups, but that's why I kept MP in mine, to offset the groups' damage loss from my not having HfB. For soloing single-pull mobs that could be chain pulled, the build definitely outperformed Combat in my experience (for instance: the viking mobs all around Shadow Vault). But to be honest, I had Hit Rating issues through to 80 and with Combat's reliance on Hit that could account for it.
ArP is a weak stat on bosses where the amount of it from Serrated is static and lame as a blind gazelle. But against quest mobs who have much less total armor, Serrated performs much better.
Actually I found HfB a burden while soloing and preferred the ease of not having it to worry about. It's vital for raiding/heroics of course, don't get me wrong. But while chain pulling it didn't seem to make much of a difference when I swapped between HfB/Precision and the Serrated/Muti build above.
Again, these are just from my personal experience with the gear I had at the time (t6/swp, gemmed for agi). Don't know if I have the gumption right now to do a full math proof of HfB averages vs. ArP... sounds kinda boring and we all know what to use for raiding, right? ;)
Moo, let us know how it goes for you so that we have some comparative anecdotes?
ArP is a weak stat on bosses where the amount of it from Serrated is static and lame as a blind gazelle. But against quest mobs who have much less total armor, Serrated performs much better.
Actually I found HfB a burden while soloing and preferred the ease of not having it to worry about. It's vital for raiding/heroics of course, don't get me wrong. But while chain pulling it didn't seem to make much of a difference when I swapped between HfB/Precision and the Serrated/Muti build above.
Again, these are just from my personal experience with the gear I had at the time (t6/swp, gemmed for agi). Don't know if I have the gumption right now to do a full math proof of HfB averages vs. ArP... sounds kinda boring and we all know what to use for raiding, right? ;)
Moo, let us know how it goes for you so that we have some comparative anecdotes?
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