I'm still not a pally, you dork.
That about sums it up.
My druid is on the shelf atm. Not because I dislike the class (zzzoooooomm to 80...was great fun). Not because I think Blizzard did a poor job with the changes to feral tanks (gear is much easier to find and a bear does well at the front of a competent party).
What I'm having a hard time with are groups that just don't think (what else is new, right?).
Unlimited target swipe is nothing short of pure bliss...unless your party is of the impression that Swipe + (glyphed) Maul = consecrate + HotR. It's not. It's this fantastic little thing we call, "hold aggro on more than three mobs through big heals without wearing out your <tab> key".
My Swipe does not...can not...most likely will not...hold aggro through AoE within at least 5-10 seconds of engaging.
My standard rotation in 5-mans for pulls of 3+ mobs has come to almost entirely exclude Lacerate. I can't afford the GCD. Rotation looks like Mangle -> toggle Maul (rage permitting) -> Swipe -> Swipe -> Mangle -> repeat. Two mobs is Mangle -> toggle Maul (rage permitting) -> Swipe -> Lacerate -> repeat.
With the change to FFF, pulling with Starfire/Moonfire is more or less moot. My FFF seems to generate 1.6 - 1.8k threat off the pull. Since spells in caster form don't get the threat bonus from bear form, dumping a near-full rage bar on a run in progress to generate a trivial amount of threat on a secondary target doesn't seem worth it (not that I've ever been a fan of it in the past, but I'm even less thrilled about the idea now). And since heroic mobs hit like angry concrete trucks, sacrficing DR off the pull to Enrage and recover lost rage for a caster pull just translates to more healer aggro keeping me going through the most treacherous part of the fight...the opening few seconds when I'm getting hit by the most mobs.
Since the mere suggestion of CC seems to trigger scoffs and mockery, the only other option appears to be the education of lazy/ignorant players the hard way.
"Where was my Growl button again?"
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WotLK feral tanks: ObservationsFollow
#2REDACTED,
Posted: Dec 02 2008 at 1:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) do u use omen or something? so you see aggro on the mobs?
Reminding people to hold off on the dps to allow threat generation gets totally annoying, agreed. I really need to make a macro for this constant reminder.
Damn, how much more cloth is gonna drop???
Wow! another bear staff that looks exactly the same as the last 7 I have earned with quest rewards.No wait, this one is a different shade of brown. Stats are slightly different though... (2pts, here, 2 pts. there)... Is it an up?
Hmmm... 6 levels and 2-3 drops... lame... Not alot on the loot tables so far.
Hmmm,,, my hunter really needs to get cracking on my LW to make some gear on down the road... Craftables are looking pretty good.
I don't have the swipe glyph but have found swipe tanking to work if, as noted above, dps gives me a couple of swipes before opening with aoes. It's when the ele shammy chain lightnings right after my first swipe that we run into problems. Other than that, bear tanking is a breeze nowadays. Also, with the change to challenging roar and the glyph it's easy to corral a stray pack of aoe mobs. It can basically be used every other fight, though I'm still used to it being on a 10-minute timer so don't use it as much as I should.
druidserg wrote:
do u use omen or something? so you see aggro on the mobs?
if yes:
try to leave out mangle if your 3+ mob-tanking. it takes the GCD u need for swipe-tanking.
just use maul and swipe. is enough for me to hold aggro. -> no! my DDs are no noobs ;-)
tab for a maul rotation on the mobs and your good to go. (just watch omen which on which mobs aggro is needed)
mage, warlock, hunter and druid wont steal you aggro through AoE
if they let u 2 swipes land on the mobs and start then (3 secs are enough).
and if there are situations where 2-3 mobs run away use all your abilities.
a 3 mob-running scenario i bash 1st, growl 2nd and charge/mangle-combo 3rd.
we have so many utilities to avoid raid-damage and keep the mobs on us.
and a little hard-work in tanking makes it more fun in my opinion ;-D
if yes:
try to leave out mangle if your 3+ mob-tanking. it takes the GCD u need for swipe-tanking.
just use maul and swipe. is enough for me to hold aggro. -> no! my DDs are no noobs ;-)
tab for a maul rotation on the mobs and your good to go. (just watch omen which on which mobs aggro is needed)
mage, warlock, hunter and druid wont steal you aggro through AoE
if they let u 2 swipes land on the mobs and start then (3 secs are enough).
and if there are situations where 2-3 mobs run away use all your abilities.
a 3 mob-running scenario i bash 1st, growl 2nd and charge/mangle-combo 3rd.
we have so many utilities to avoid raid-damage and keep the mobs on us.
and a little hard-work in tanking makes it more fun in my opinion ;-D
I never call for AoE unless the group we're about to fight is non-elite. Targets are marked for a focused fire kill order and in a heroic my gear won't currently allow me to withstand a prolonged beating from multiple mobs. Focused fire is critical. As such, Mangle is also critical. Swipe + Maul spam won't hold a main target through focused dps.
The trouble is getting everyone on the main target instead of nuking the first marked enemy they haphazardly click on/tab to.
tuskerdu wrote:
I don't have the swipe glyph
Good, cuz you'd be cheating...there isn't one. : )
You had me worried for a sec, thinking I was missing something like a glyph that amped Swipe damage by 10% or something, but some quick googlage edumucated me about the fact there WAS a swipe glyph in WLK beta that made Swipe hit 4 targets instead of 3, but when Blizzy turned swipe into frontward facing AoE that glyph became moot so they replaced it with the Maul glyph which makes it hit 2 instead of 1.
Lol, I misread the initial post and thought it said there was a swipe glyph. Not wanting to expose my ignorance for missing this glyph I instead nonchalantly said "well, I don't have the swipe glyph" and exposed ignorance in reading comprehension instead.
I just tell dps to hold off until I can 2 or 3 swipes in and unload. I swipe and maul constantly with anything more then 3+mobs. I have never had a problem holding aggro. If a mob gets pulled off of me, I will quickly growl/mangle and bring them back or mangle if they aren't out of range.
By the time the first mob is dead, I have already built up enough threat usually on the others to not even have to press another button. I did have a mage the other night whine and cry because I was tanking and not a pally. I told him to try to pull something off of me in an aoe situation and the guy couldn't.
I love bear tanking right now, I am just worried that people still have a misconception about Bears MT'ing anything.
By the time the first mob is dead, I have already built up enough threat usually on the others to not even have to press another button. I did have a mage the other night whine and cry because I was tanking and not a pally. I told him to try to pull something off of me in an aoe situation and the guy couldn't.
I love bear tanking right now, I am just worried that people still have a misconception about Bears MT'ing anything.
I agree Aurelius, and I've been having similar experiences. Everyone thinks they can unload right off the bat.
My experience at this point is that EZ mode dungeons are making people lazy and/or letting poor players get away with bad habits. I haven't been in a dungeon yet that required any real CC. Most of the pulls are simply grab-them-all and let the dps do its thing. This mostly works just fine. There always seems to be the idiot that doesn't know how to target the skull, or feels the need to send their pet onto a different mob. But, all in all, these instances seem so forgivable that it doesn't matter.
My guess is that once people start running heroics, they will need to re-learn (or learn) the right way to go about things. I haven't made it to 80 yet (darn RL), but I've been hearing that the heroics are a bit difficult. The sloppy play I've been seeing in instances probably won't fly in heroics. But, for now, it's not worth the hassle of chiding and correcting people in instances that are so easy.
My experience at this point is that EZ mode dungeons are making people lazy and/or letting poor players get away with bad habits. I haven't been in a dungeon yet that required any real CC. Most of the pulls are simply grab-them-all and let the dps do its thing. This mostly works just fine. There always seems to be the idiot that doesn't know how to target the skull, or feels the need to send their pet onto a different mob. But, all in all, these instances seem so forgivable that it doesn't matter.
My guess is that once people start running heroics, they will need to re-learn (or learn) the right way to go about things. I haven't made it to 80 yet (darn RL), but I've been hearing that the heroics are a bit difficult. The sloppy play I've been seeing in instances probably won't fly in heroics. But, for now, it's not worth the hassle of chiding and correcting people in instances that are so easy.
I am not a pally either but I play one on tv.
Seriously though most groups I have ran with have held off on the AoE long enough for me to get in a few good swipes . If not I run around like a drunkard trying to control all the mobs. Which usually works well enough if I have some rage, otherwise someone might die. But hey they should as they were stupid.
Challenge Roar being on a 2.5 minute CD is nice and can save many idiots from the death they deserve. The threat and damage component to FFF has let me use it to hold caster mobs that are actually not even in melee range. As long as the DPS leaves them alone it is more than enough to stay ahead of the healer on the aggro table. I think it kind of freaks out some people.
I have been pretty much face-rolling my way through instances. I hit 2 and 3 until it is boss time. Only changing if the dps pulls aggro. The challenge is gone until, hopefully, heroics.
Except one run I did the other day. Was the most fun and challenging thing I have done in the x-pac so far. It involved me eating crits and crushes. I had to mark and pull good. Heck, I wasn't sure if I remembered how at the beginning of the run. I even had the rogue Sap targets!!! I am still amazed the group let me tank for them. We only wiped on Ymiron and the one time I started attacking when the healer was AFK. Ymiron killed me both times we fought him but I got him low enough for a higher level feral druid to take over and tank him to death. Why the 79 was DPS and the lowly 76 was tanking is beyond me but damn I had fun.
Seriously though most groups I have ran with have held off on the AoE long enough for me to get in a few good swipes . If not I run around like a drunkard trying to control all the mobs. Which usually works well enough if I have some rage, otherwise someone might die. But hey they should as they were stupid.
Challenge Roar being on a 2.5 minute CD is nice and can save many idiots from the death they deserve. The threat and damage component to FFF has let me use it to hold caster mobs that are actually not even in melee range. As long as the DPS leaves them alone it is more than enough to stay ahead of the healer on the aggro table. I think it kind of freaks out some people.
I have been pretty much face-rolling my way through instances. I hit 2 and 3 until it is boss time. Only changing if the dps pulls aggro. The challenge is gone until, hopefully, heroics.
Except one run I did the other day. Was the most fun and challenging thing I have done in the x-pac so far. It involved me eating crits and crushes. I had to mark and pull good. Heck, I wasn't sure if I remembered how at the beginning of the run. I even had the rogue Sap targets!!! I am still amazed the group let me tank for them. We only wiped on Ymiron and the one time I started attacking when the healer was AFK. Ymiron killed me both times we fought him but I got him low enough for a higher level feral druid to take over and tank him to death. Why the 79 was DPS and the lowly 76 was tanking is beyond me but damn I had fun.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
I've run Heroic Violet Hold and Nexus and they are both still EZ mode. I hope some heroics out there are tougher, but I've yet to see anything that requires cc, strategy or any semblance of brainpower. I'd say it's allowing bad players to form bad habits, etc, but it doesn't appear that any facet of WotLK is going to require much of those skills.
I have yet to see a tank who could without risk, tank some of the heroic pulls without CC. Even our MT who had 4pcT6 and has got significant upgrades since then has been beaten down by some heroic pulls faster than the healer could cope with. Granted, if the sap fails or someone breaks something, you can usually recover and not wipe, but it's still worth CC'ing 1-2 mobs a pull to minimise risk.
Violet Hold though I must admit, trash is a non-issue. Some of the bosses take some getting used to though - they are harder than the last boss by far (kinda like it was in BM).
Violet Hold though I must admit, trash is a non-issue. Some of the bosses take some getting used to though - they are harder than the last boss by far (kinda like it was in BM).
Rarebeast wrote:
I have yet to see a tank who could without risk, tank some of the heroic pulls without CC. Even our MT who had 4pcT6 and has got significant upgrades since then has been beaten down by some heroic pulls faster than the healer could cope with. Granted, if the sap fails or someone breaks something, you can usually recover and not wipe, but it's still worth CC'ing 1-2 mobs a pull to minimise risk.
Yep as a beginning 80 you wont be able to.
But if you further progress it's really not a problem to tank without CC. Just makes a healers life easier.^^
Im 3 piece T7 now and mostly epic geared. 30k hp, 31k armor, 36% dodge unbuffed.
But u can get these numbers easy with heroic gear.
I found out that (for me) naxx-gear didnt improve my hp, armor much.
It improved my dodge cause of mass agi and it improved my TPS by an enormous amount,
cause of all the crit/expertise on the items.
I can steal a deff-warris mob so easy right now :-D
I always use barkskin on groups of 4. It lasts till one mob is down and 3 mobs are np healing.
I also have no problem pulling the groups of 4 trolls in drak'tharon.
Sry if a bit off-topic
I must admit, we are finding things easier and easier with only marginal upgrades. Some of the bosses are still a challenge but it seems to be the healer that is under the most pressure. Our healer is VERY well geared - even his damage set has over 1900 spellpower, but he still struggles to keep us all up at times. The Rhino interrupting his heals on the last boss in Gundrak is his pet hate :)
Tanking and DPS seem to have it pretty easy compared to the healers in heroics.
Tanking and DPS seem to have it pretty easy compared to the healers in heroics.
If the group does focus-damage, the healer is only for about 10 secs under pressure.
then the first mob dies and healing gets way easier.
then the first mob dies and healing gets way easier.
try gundrak tusker. the snake boss alone is harder than most of the rest of the instance, and youre generally well-served to CC on some of the pulls in there (double fire weaver or double lancer pulls come to mind).
the MT of my warriors guild is a druid. he was pretty well-geared from BC, and has maintained that level of gearing up to 80 for the most part (in terms of upgrades, if not so much item level per se). hes been able to handle everything from nexus to utgarde keep to gundrak to the halls of lightning without too much trouble.
in short, the gear is there (even if a lot of the damn staves are identical in look) and the potential is there. its just that the gear and the potential tends to lie on the far side of idiotic pugs.
and that my children, is why we never run with more than one pug.
the MT of my warriors guild is a druid. he was pretty well-geared from BC, and has maintained that level of gearing up to 80 for the most part (in terms of upgrades, if not so much item level per se). hes been able to handle everything from nexus to utgarde keep to gundrak to the halls of lightning without too much trouble.
in short, the gear is there (even if a lot of the damn staves are identical in look) and the potential is there. its just that the gear and the potential tends to lie on the far side of idiotic pugs.
and that my children, is why we never run with more than one pug.
I either run with guildies (and only some of them) or I go and level my hunter. Too many idiots out there.
Horsemouth wrote:
Except one run I did the other day. Was the most fun and challenging thing I have done in the x-pac so far. It involved me eating crits and crushes. I had to mark and pull good. Heck, I wasn't sure if I remembered how at the beginning of the run. I even had the rogue Sap targets!!! I am still amazed the group let me tank for them. We only wiped on Ymiron and the one time I started attacking when the healer was AFK. Ymiron killed me both times we fought him but I got him low enough for a higher level feral druid to take over and tank him to death. Why the 79 was DPS and the lowly 76 was tanking is beyond me but damn I had fun.
No crits if talented, and no crushed in LK.
selebrin wrote:
No crits if talented, and no crushed in LK.
Ymiron is level 82. I was level 76.
edit for clarification. We have crit reduction via talents that works for mobs up to and including 5 levels above. Crushes can happen from mobs 4 levels above. 82-76=6. So I ate some crushes and some crits.
Edited, Dec 4th 2008 11:41pm by Horsemouth
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
selebrin wrote:
Horsemouth wrote:
Except one run I did the other day. Was the most fun and challenging thing I have done in the x-pac so far. It involved me eating crits and crushes. I had to mark and pull good. Heck, I wasn't sure if I remembered how at the beginning of the run. I even had the rogue Sap targets!!! I am still amazed the group let me tank for them. We only wiped on Ymiron and the one time I started attacking when the healer was AFK. Ymiron killed me both times we fought him but I got him low enough for a higher level feral druid to take over and tank him to death. Why the 79 was DPS and the lowly 76 was tanking is beyond me but damn I had fun.
No crits if talented, and no crushed in LK.
Your chance to be crit is a function of the difference between your level and the mob who's hitting you. So since it's a variable, it's always been my understanding that when we talk about being "critproof" we're talking about the combination of defense rating, resilience and/or talents eliminating our chance to be crit by bosses THREE levels higher than us. First because you can't say something that precise when the chance to be crit is variable, and second because most such theorycrafting is done assuming a level 80 player matched against heroic/raid bosses which are treated as level 83 for purposes of hit/crit/miss/etc combat chances.
In this case he's talking about Ymiron, the last boss in the level 80 instance Utgarde Pinnacle. If it's the same as TBC, then bosses in the non-heroic level 80 instances are 82 -- he said he was level 76, a full 6 levels lower than that, so he'd need more than the 6% crit reduction of 3/3 SotF to take crits off the table.
As far as crushing blows...yeah, I thought those were gone from the game too.
EDIT: Damnit, Horsemouth, you're too frakkin' fast! Here I was proud to leap to your defense and I wasted all my blah blah time when you took care of yourself much more succintly.
Edited, Dec 4th 2008 8:45pm by JeeBar
And I type slow. :)
Thanks though JeeBar. ;P
They didn't remove crushes they simply made them unlikely. (Source )
Thanks though JeeBar. ;P
They didn't remove crushes they simply made them unlikely. (Source )
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Ah, I missed that you were 76
I don't find heroics to be too difficult at all. Every one I've done so far I've tanked sans CC and it hasn't really been too difficult imo. Going back there were a couple pulls I would have used CC since it was tough on the healer but in general they havn't been too bad. All I did was mark a skull as first kill, occasionally an X if there was a second problem mob. Giving the dps a target to focus on at first gave me enough time to get threat on everything else and by time the first is downed they were in the clear for aoe.
I must say that the maul and frenzied regen glyphs go a long way though. By planning use of barkskin and frenzied regen near the start of pulls, I could amplify my survivability when I'm taking the most damage so that my healer doesn't get overwhelmed and I can get away with ignoring CC. Also glyphed maul is a great way to get 2 stacks of infected wounds on all the targets to reduce their attack speed and further reduce incoming damage on pulls.
Bear single target threat output is also insane, I love it. I'm clearing 4500tps sustained on bosses :D
I must say that the maul and frenzied regen glyphs go a long way though. By planning use of barkskin and frenzied regen near the start of pulls, I could amplify my survivability when I'm taking the most damage so that my healer doesn't get overwhelmed and I can get away with ignoring CC. Also glyphed maul is a great way to get 2 stacks of infected wounds on all the targets to reduce their attack speed and further reduce incoming damage on pulls.
Bear single target threat output is also insane, I love it. I'm clearing 4500tps sustained on bosses :D
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