When I first started playing this game ... ok, when I first realised that my attacks could miss, be dodged, parried, hit, and could crit (which doesn't necessarily co-incide with when I started the game ... I was a real noob), I figured that the mechanism that WoW used was a typical Multiple Check type system. In essence, I figured that for every swing, a 5% check was done to see if the attack would miss, then a 5% miss check would be done to see if it would be dodged ...etc etc ... all the way up to a 30% check to see if the attack would crit.
I distinctly remember thinking at the time that WoW must run on monstrous machines to make all those calculations not only quickly enough to not impact me, but also so that the other players around me, as well as the mobs' attacks, would be calculated accurately and quickly. That's when I discovered the attack table and the single roll system ... and then things made a touch more sense.
Aside from the sheer processing power required, a multiple roll system is flawed. A simple example is that if you have 50% chance to dodge and 50% chance to parry ... you should strickly speaking never be hit .. as half the attacks against you will be parried and the other half will be dodged. In a mutiple roll system, 50% dodge and 50% parry means a 25% chance of still being hit. In a single roll system, it works "correctly".
Which brings me to my question. From what I've read recently (having gone into it a little bit more ... I guess I was bored), it appears that everything is handled on a single roll attack table ... except crits on specials - these are rolled for again if it is determined that the attack will in fact land. This would effectively reduce the actual crit chance you have as it's taken as a percentage of a percentage. For Example (figures are thumb-sucks for illustration purposes):
Initial roll
5% Miss
5% dodge
5% parry
5% block
5% glancing
75% hit
I swing, I have a 75% chance to hit the target, the rest being made up of miss/dodge, etc. Let's say I fall in the 75% bracket, the second roll then happens ...
Crit Roll (1)
30% crit
70% normal hit
What this essentially would do is drop your effective crit chance to 30% * 75% = 22.5% crit.
Sorry if this all seems common knowledge, but I always thought that crit was bundled into the initial attack table regardless of whether it's a white hit or special attack. If this is indeed the way it works, it would highlight a far more important reason for maximising +hit and Expertise, meaning the elimation of miss / dodge / parry / block would mean that you effective crit rate actually goes up, closer to the number of your character screen.
In the example above (not being able to eliminate Glancing blows), that would be 30% of 95% hit, which gives an effective crit chance of 28.5%. It also makes the absolute importance of attacking from behind even more glaring.
So, in summary, if I am correct in my assumptions, Increasing +hit and expertise actually increases crit (on specials) as well.
Shoot me down, correct me, flame me, whatever (actually, I'd prefer being simply corrected, but hey, I guess I'll have to take what comes)
ps. Theo, I have read your mechanics section in the compendium, and it makes perfect sense, except that the hit table article in the Wiki on this site, as well as the (very similar) article describing the attack table on WowWiki.com specifically state that crits on specials are processed on 2 roll basis.
Looking over the mechanics section again, it all seems perfectly correct, but for white attacks only.
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Crit and the Attack TableFollow
http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table
Very beginning of the article has what you want.
Very beginning of the article has what you want.
bismarckmajivo wrote:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table
Very beginning of the article has what you want.
Very beginning of the article has what you want.
Yup, that's what I've always believed ... however, later in that same article, this in mentioned.
wowwiki attack table article wrote:
Two-roll theory for melee special attacks
In a discussion thread at http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=9104 , a user named Vulajin kept track of his critical hit rate over many many Backstabs.
He corrected for all possible factors he could think of, and in the end discovered that the rate he got was consistent with his attack being resolved using two die rolls: A first roll to determine whether the attack missed (using the assumed miss chance for the mob targets he was attacking), and a second roll to determine whether an attack that didn't miss was a critical hit (using his tooltip Crit chance adjusted for the mob target's level).
If his data are accurate, and if the game mechanics for yellow-damage attacks haven't changed since the time that discussion thread was written, then there are at least two random numbers generated to determine the outcome of special attacks. It is unfortunate, though, that these tests were done with Backstab and not with a special attack that can be made against a mob from the front, e.g. Sinister Strike or Heroic Strike. Such data would be more useful, because attacks from the front can be parried and blocked.
So, I guess what I'm asking is, which piece of information is correct, or is Vulajin's data simply representative of an attack table which has since been changed.
I realise I might have joined this particular line of thinking 2 years too late :P ... but the fact that there is still the piece of information on the wowwiki page, with no citation requested, means that it's either true, or as yet unconfirmed.
As an aside :
Blizzard Representative in 2005 wrote:
"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."
Does not necessarily indicate to me a one roll system, what it says to me simply dissuades the comment that many people make to motivate stacking hit : "You can't crit if you can't hit".
However, it is a particularly vague (weird for Blizz, huh?) statement, and is subject to interpretation ... again, imo.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 1:36pm by robertlofthouse
Get the 'Recount' addon and go play away with a target dummy.
I don't know this info right off so I can't just tell you, but I imagine people have figured it out. Either way, this is a way for you to find out for yourself. Go to the level equal dummy, check your chance to miss, your crit etc and blast away for a while then check what your actual results are.
From what I recall though, hit actually doesn't raise your crit. Your crit is a straight amount. Misses take away from your chance to normal hit because of the one roll system.
I.e. if you have a 25% chance to crit, a 10% chance to miss in the various ways, the remainder is given to normal hit with a one roll system, i.e. you end up with a 65% of a normal hit. In other words, if somehow you got to some extreme and had a 90% chance to crit and 10% chance to miss on whatever mob, you'd literally never see normal attacks. Mostly this isn't reachable.
If you were on a two roll system, that rolled the chance of a successful attack critting after a roll to see if your attack hit, then yes, hit would increase your chance to crit.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 1:04pm by digitalcraft
I don't know this info right off so I can't just tell you, but I imagine people have figured it out. Either way, this is a way for you to find out for yourself. Go to the level equal dummy, check your chance to miss, your crit etc and blast away for a while then check what your actual results are.
From what I recall though, hit actually doesn't raise your crit. Your crit is a straight amount. Misses take away from your chance to normal hit because of the one roll system.
I.e. if you have a 25% chance to crit, a 10% chance to miss in the various ways, the remainder is given to normal hit with a one roll system, i.e. you end up with a 65% of a normal hit. In other words, if somehow you got to some extreme and had a 90% chance to crit and 10% chance to miss on whatever mob, you'd literally never see normal attacks. Mostly this isn't reachable.
If you were on a two roll system, that rolled the chance of a successful attack critting after a roll to see if your attack hit, then yes, hit would increase your chance to crit.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 1:04pm by digitalcraft
I can't really speak for Rogues, but I do think I've read a thread somewhere about Hunters having a Two-Roll system. Can't remember if it was on EJ or TKAsomething, but it appeared to have been proven quite conclusively. I was wondering if someone had a theorycraft source somewhere that proved Rogues only have a one-roll system.
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
I can't really speak for Rogues, but I do think I've read a thread somewhere about Hunters having a Two-Roll system. Can't remember if it was on EJ or TKAsomething, but it appeared to have been proven quite conclusively. I was wondering if someone had a theorycraft source somewhere that proved Rogues only have a one-roll system.
Yeah, that's pretty much the basis of my inquiry here ... in my last post, there's a link to an EJ thread where Vulajin presented extensive testing which clearly supported the theory of a 2 roll system on crits for specials, however, that thread is from 2006. The Hit Table Wiki article on this site (I can't see when it what written) more than presents the 2 roll system as a theory, it actually presents it as fact.
Now, as suggested, I guess I could go and try it myself on the training dummies, but if it's been tested and confirmed / refuted already by some of the gurus here, it would be great to receive that feedback.
As for it being different for rogues and hunters, it really shouldn't ... the only difference is that ranged attacks can't be dodged or parried, and can't glance (I saw a snippet somewhere that they can be block nowadays ... although I could be way off on that), which, assuming you've capped your hit, should essentially make it a non-issue.
I say go out and do some extensive testing (like 10k uses or more of an ability) and let the law of large numbers solve this for you.
just try to get a setup where your crit rate would be more than 5% apart.
just try to get a setup where your crit rate would be more than 5% apart.
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