It would be nice, perhaps, if JotW had a secondary effect, like reducing the cooldown on Divine plea by 5 seconds per talent spent - or buffing the entire talent to a point a bit closer to it's original value. Not necessarily 1/3 mana restoral...but maybe an additional 5% over what it currently gives.
Part of the problem with being ret, I think, is that we're made to be something we'd rather not be at times. if the **** hits the fan, and the tank isn't getting heals fast enough - we have to be able to rise to the call. Unfortunately - our big heal costs about 25% of our maximum mana at 80 and our small heal, as ret, might not be enough to get the job done.
I think the problem is, the changes in wrath increased our viability as a DPS but greatly reduced our versatility by reducing our mana supply.
I know we can't have the best of both worlds, but during raids we're going to be expected to save the day in a pinch...
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ima chime in for real now:
Tabstopper made a nice post for looking at things as a snapshot. it's clean but it makes too many assumptions. overall it shows that Ret's mana issues are not dire and are often player regulated. true, only to a point.
what is doesn't show are the other variables. refreshing SoB/SoM(usually every 90secs), necessary stuns/CC, mana usuage on CDs(AW, Hands, bubbles).
using SoB/SoM doesn't really generate as much mana-from-heal as it sounds. when you factor in JoL and DS healing, you will cover about half your dmg taken. i'm also too proud to leave an instant FoL on CD when i'm below 50% health.
however, you also need to consider: replenishment buff from other sources when you aren't attacking(maybe out of range or stunned), use of a mana pot, use of LoH, raid buffs in general, and innervate-type abilities.
if we consider pvp: Ret is f@cked. i got mana drained(7k->0k) in about 8s by a hunter when i repawned at a Wintergrasp GY. if that is any indication of pvp neutralization, arena will be interesting(btw i killed him).
Tabstopper made a nice post for looking at things as a snapshot. it's clean but it makes too many assumptions. overall it shows that Ret's mana issues are not dire and are often player regulated. true, only to a point.
what is doesn't show are the other variables. refreshing SoB/SoM(usually every 90secs), necessary stuns/CC, mana usuage on CDs(AW, Hands, bubbles).
using SoB/SoM doesn't really generate as much mana-from-heal as it sounds. when you factor in JoL and DS healing, you will cover about half your dmg taken. i'm also too proud to leave an instant FoL on CD when i'm below 50% health.
however, you also need to consider: replenishment buff from other sources when you aren't attacking(maybe out of range or stunned), use of a mana pot, use of LoH, raid buffs in general, and innervate-type abilities.
if we consider pvp: Ret is f@cked. i got mana drained(7k->0k) in about 8s by a hunter when i repawned at a Wintergrasp GY. if that is any indication of pvp neutralization, arena will be interesting(btw i killed him).
I dug out a WWS report of a Patchwerk kill and looked for a Ret pally. Found one, and he's not wearing any +INT that I can see.
WWS Report
The good: Righteous Vengeance accounted for ~5% of his damage. At 1% per talent point, that doesn't look too shabby.
In terms of Mana Regen, he regained 21442 mana over a 2' 25" fight from JotW, Divine Plea, JoW, Replenishment, and Spiritual Attunement. That amounts to 8872 Mana per Minute or ~740 MP5. Spiritual Attunement accounted for slightly more than 10% of the mana regen.
Crunching some #'s, Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring Totem each add ~1k Mana per minute, and would bring total MP5 up to ~915.
That's starting to look pretty sustainable in a Raid setting, and should allow some additional skill usage.
If you're running low, Runic Mana Potion would add a bit of a buffer to that. Late in a fight, LoH on a tank (with Glyph of Divinity) or on yourself could give another bump if needed. Innervate would seem to be a waste, particularly given the (hopefully) abysmally low Spirit stat for Paladins.
The bad: The Ret was near the bottom of the DDs at "only" 4k DPS.
The ugly: He took 42,000 Damage from SotM, and recovered ~8k from Divine Storm. That leaves ~234 DPS of self-damage that his healers need to pick up. Ah well, I guess that's what Lifebloom's for.
What this means: If Ret continues to be near the bottom of the pack on damage, they should get some kind of buff. Now the question is, will Blizzard consider this to be underperforming, or is it "working as intended"?
I have noticed that Shadow Priest performance seems to be a bit lackluster on WWS. I haven't looked for any Survival Hunters, but I'm wondering if Blizzard aimed to have DPS of classes that provide Replenishment a bit on the low side. (If so, they certainly haven't made it public).
Anyway, I thought it might be fun to inject some real raiding #s into this discussion.
WWS Report
The good: Righteous Vengeance accounted for ~5% of his damage. At 1% per talent point, that doesn't look too shabby.
In terms of Mana Regen, he regained 21442 mana over a 2' 25" fight from JotW, Divine Plea, JoW, Replenishment, and Spiritual Attunement. That amounts to 8872 Mana per Minute or ~740 MP5. Spiritual Attunement accounted for slightly more than 10% of the mana regen.
Crunching some #'s, Blessing of Wisdom and Mana Spring Totem each add ~1k Mana per minute, and would bring total MP5 up to ~915.
That's starting to look pretty sustainable in a Raid setting, and should allow some additional skill usage.
If you're running low, Runic Mana Potion would add a bit of a buffer to that. Late in a fight, LoH on a tank (with Glyph of Divinity) or on yourself could give another bump if needed. Innervate would seem to be a waste, particularly given the (hopefully) abysmally low Spirit stat for Paladins.
The bad: The Ret was near the bottom of the DDs at "only" 4k DPS.
The ugly: He took 42,000 Damage from SotM, and recovered ~8k from Divine Storm. That leaves ~234 DPS of self-damage that his healers need to pick up. Ah well, I guess that's what Lifebloom's for.
What this means: If Ret continues to be near the bottom of the pack on damage, they should get some kind of buff. Now the question is, will Blizzard consider this to be underperforming, or is it "working as intended"?
I have noticed that Shadow Priest performance seems to be a bit lackluster on WWS. I haven't looked for any Survival Hunters, but I'm wondering if Blizzard aimed to have DPS of classes that provide Replenishment a bit on the low side. (If so, they certainly haven't made it public).
Anyway, I thought it might be fun to inject some real raiding #s into this discussion.
I still want more mana. I almost *always* carry mana pots anyways. It's kind of silly not to.
Quote:
Innervate would seem to be a waste, particularly given the (hopefully) abysmally low Spirit stat for Paladins.
It's a worry then when you see a paladin with more spirit then intellect. I wonder if this could have caused some issues for him with JotW?
If Arena gear comes out with +Int I'll be gearing my Ret Paladin with some welfare epics to boost my mana pool.
Edit: Seems PvP gear doesnt have any intellect on it either.
Edited, Dec 11th 2008 8:18am by arthoriuss
Personally, I wouldn't mind being slightly lower on DPS if they gave us some of our mana efficiency back. I *liked* that we had a bit more range of action. I liked being able to throw out a flash of light every now and again when the instant cast symbol came up to help out healers. I'd like it if not every dps class was as close to the same as possible: just dpsing equally and nothing else. I'd much rather some of the dps fill a little wider role, like shamans can do aoe totem buffs, it'd be neat if ret paladins, like shadow priests, could aid in healing a little while they do their thing.
Overall though, I think ret paladins are in a lot better place than some other classes. Especially to how they used to be!
Overall though, I think ret paladins are in a lot better place than some other classes. Especially to how they used to be!
Quote:
Personally, I wouldn't mind being slightly lower on DPS if they gave us some of our mana efficiency back.
lucky for you, you can! plus its optional and not hardwired in.
throw in a +16 int gem instead of +str gem and you have your lower dps AND your mana.
Mana efficiency, not an extra 160 mana. :P
240 my friend. plus you get that regen'd from Judgement of the Wise @ about 5 mana per judgement. all from 1 cheap gem.
if you really want some bang for your buck, get the Lower City rep Glyph to your head(17str/16int).
if you really want some bang for your buck, get the Lower City rep Glyph to your head(17str/16int).
I am mostly prot these days, but last week I got to spec retri for part of naxx, and I was disappointed with the results. A good example would be Loatheb, where I am not required to tank. I usually pull out a dps one hander, replace any gear with no block value with retri gear, click off RF and dps. I put out a quite respectable 3007 dps, coming in ahead of a poorly played hunter, an elemental shaman and a ret pally.
The previous week - when specced retri - I managed 2.7k, complete with the usual mana problems (not helped by having to use seal of command instead of martyr!) Now my retri gear isn't the best, and my prot gear is very good, but would you expect a well equipped prot warrior to beat a fury or arms warrior? A bear to outdps a boomkin?
Previously retri's poor dps could be compensated for by "added utility" but with the current raid stacking a ret provides pretty much nothing unique anymore, lets take a look at the list:
- Extra Blessing - My guild usually runs me (prot) and two holys, everyone gets all the buffs they need.
- Improved BoM - Most holys take this now on their way to Conviction, improved battle shout is almost as good.
- Heart of the Crusader - Most holys take this, some prots (like me) take this, elemental shamans and some rogues can also do this.
- An extra judgement - I will keep one judge up all the time (usually light) and the holys will keep the other up most of the time, so an extra ret will actually help a lot in this case if you don't have a prot.
- Sanctified Retribution - Does not stack with Ferocious Inspiration.
- Swift Retribution - Does not stack with improved moonkin aura.
- Replenishment - Also provided by shadow priests and survival hunters, though you really want at least 3 people doing this so all the mana users get is most of the time.
So basically bringing a ret to a raid nets you an extra replenishment and an extra judge at the cost of a significant amount of dps. Unless dps is brought in line with at least other hybrids then theres really no reason to take one, which is ironic since blizzard's "bring the player, not the class" policy. If you know a really good ret pally, its almost a good idea to make him reroll deathknight, in 2-3 weeks he could be up to raiding speed and putting out a lot more dps!
Edited, Dec 13th 2008 6:08pm by Tinyknight
The previous week - when specced retri - I managed 2.7k, complete with the usual mana problems (not helped by having to use seal of command instead of martyr!) Now my retri gear isn't the best, and my prot gear is very good, but would you expect a well equipped prot warrior to beat a fury or arms warrior? A bear to outdps a boomkin?
Previously retri's poor dps could be compensated for by "added utility" but with the current raid stacking a ret provides pretty much nothing unique anymore, lets take a look at the list:
- Extra Blessing - My guild usually runs me (prot) and two holys, everyone gets all the buffs they need.
- Improved BoM - Most holys take this now on their way to Conviction, improved battle shout is almost as good.
- Heart of the Crusader - Most holys take this, some prots (like me) take this, elemental shamans and some rogues can also do this.
- An extra judgement - I will keep one judge up all the time (usually light) and the holys will keep the other up most of the time, so an extra ret will actually help a lot in this case if you don't have a prot.
- Sanctified Retribution - Does not stack with Ferocious Inspiration.
- Swift Retribution - Does not stack with improved moonkin aura.
- Replenishment - Also provided by shadow priests and survival hunters, though you really want at least 3 people doing this so all the mana users get is most of the time.
So basically bringing a ret to a raid nets you an extra replenishment and an extra judge at the cost of a significant amount of dps. Unless dps is brought in line with at least other hybrids then theres really no reason to take one, which is ironic since blizzard's "bring the player, not the class" policy. If you know a really good ret pally, its almost a good idea to make him reroll deathknight, in 2-3 weeks he could be up to raiding speed and putting out a lot more dps!
Edited, Dec 13th 2008 6:08pm by Tinyknight
Quote:
A good example would be Loatheb
really? you are using the most unconventional boss encounter in the game as a reference to the classes dmg output and utility?
a Ret pally can fully fill a raid spot better than any other spec/class. you get respectable dmg output AND you get almost every missing raid buff to a degree. you made a list of the competing classes and their relevant buffs...the Ret pally brings em all.
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