When WotLK came out a guild invited me to come heal for them, so saddly I've dropped my pally for now and am healing with my priest. I look forward to the day when I go back to tanking, but for now I'm really enjoying my roll as a healer.
I always loved it when healer would come over and I could give them my 2 copper. What they could do for me as a tank (biggest one was keep your shield to yourself :-) So here I am. What can I do for pally tanks (as that is what I look for when I pug) that can help you best BESIDES keeping you alive :-) in the WotLK?
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What you want from your healer?Follow
Eh, all I care about is that I don't die, and I'll make sure you don't get attacked. Then the simple stuff like "keep up the Renew" and "Shield is for emergencies only".
Sounds like you should know enough already, right? You can't forget how to tank, I hope. :P
And I'm not much on Priests anyway. If you were a paladin healer, I'd at least have some experience.
Oh, and if you're Disc, I love the Pain Suppression. I haven't seen much of Penance, but that sounds great too. Less damage taken is just as good as more healing done. If you're holy though, you have what, Guardian Spirit? I haven't even seen that one yet.
Sounds like you should know enough already, right? You can't forget how to tank, I hope. :P
And I'm not much on Priests anyway. If you were a paladin healer, I'd at least have some experience.
Oh, and if you're Disc, I love the Pain Suppression. I haven't seen much of Penance, but that sounds great too. Less damage taken is just as good as more healing done. If you're holy though, you have what, Guardian Spirit? I haven't even seen that one yet.
Let the dps die.
Srsly.
OK, so that's not applicable to all situations, so allow me to elaborate.
I was tanking heroic Nexus on my druid a few days ago (not exactly a pally tank, but the concepts are pretty much the same). I had a bunch of trigger happy dps...you know the type...ignore the kill order, crank up the dps when all I have is token aggro, load up the AoE before I can even land a Swipe, that sort of thing.
Healer was trying to keep them all healed through their own stupidity, which meant healer gets aggro, and then the dps come back on me saying I'm not building threat fast enough.
IMO, a good healer will know when dps are taking damage from "unavoidable" AoE and when they're taking damage because they're not doing what they need to be doing, and as a tank I'd rather you let them die than make my job difficult trying to keep things under control. It's not to teach them a lesson. It's not to get back at them for being dorks. (Even though it could easily serve either purpose :P). It's because the people doing what needs to be done should be preserved and if something has to go sideways, it should be the idiots eating the brunt of their own consequences.
Holding threat through AoE is a little (well, a lot) easier on my paladin than it is on my druid, but the potential for stupidity is always present. I know a lot of healers who zone in on their party/raid frame(s) and just start spamming heals wherever they look necessary. They don't seem to give any thought to anything else, but a healer that is aware of what is going on goes from a mana-bandage bot to a valued party member in short order.
Srsly.
OK, so that's not applicable to all situations, so allow me to elaborate.
I was tanking heroic Nexus on my druid a few days ago (not exactly a pally tank, but the concepts are pretty much the same). I had a bunch of trigger happy dps...you know the type...ignore the kill order, crank up the dps when all I have is token aggro, load up the AoE before I can even land a Swipe, that sort of thing.
Healer was trying to keep them all healed through their own stupidity, which meant healer gets aggro, and then the dps come back on me saying I'm not building threat fast enough.
IMO, a good healer will know when dps are taking damage from "unavoidable" AoE and when they're taking damage because they're not doing what they need to be doing, and as a tank I'd rather you let them die than make my job difficult trying to keep things under control. It's not to teach them a lesson. It's not to get back at them for being dorks. (Even though it could easily serve either purpose :P). It's because the people doing what needs to be done should be preserved and if something has to go sideways, it should be the idiots eating the brunt of their own consequences.
Holding threat through AoE is a little (well, a lot) easier on my paladin than it is on my druid, but the potential for stupidity is always present. I know a lot of healers who zone in on their party/raid frame(s) and just start spamming heals wherever they look necessary. They don't seem to give any thought to anything else, but a healer that is aware of what is going on goes from a mana-bandage bot to a valued party member in short order.
Quote:
It's not to teach them a lesson. It's not to get back at them for being dorks. (Even though it could easily serve either purpose :P). It's because the people doing what needs to be done should be preserved and if something has to go sideways, it should be the idiots eating the brunt of their own consequences.
I usually try to warn them first. Refer them to Omen. After that they can die. Tank is always first, then me, then dps. Tank or myself die and we are usually walking back, and taking a dur hit. Hate that. Last repair bill was over 12g.
IMO
A good healer doesnt spam heal himself while soul stoned, watching the tank die. I use agunitframes, and nothing i hate more then watching my health bar slowly drain, seeing no faded bar indicating a heal is coming my way, tank and heals are top priority, if healer is soulstoned, tank is top priority, cant tell you how many times ive solo killed raid/heroic bosses from 50% on with just me and a healer because dps doesnt do what i explain.
I've even solo'd a handfull of raid bosses by myself with no heals from 40%-50% health on my own, which makes me want to punch people in the face when they whipe a boss fight because no dps is left or no heals when boss is semi close to dead so tank gives up (dps turning around and running because they "predict" that we might whipe is another button pusher to **** me off but were not talking about dps XD).
Also, healing talents are there for a reason, take advantage of any talent that will be beneficial. Some priests/pally's will argue that divine spirit/beacon of light arent worth putting points in, and it makes me laugh inside that they call themselves healers. those are the healers that in a tight spot, have no utility spells to keep the fight going and whipe on what could have easily not been
Dont over estimate your healing capabilities or get over confident about your healing, was in halls of lightning last night with a 75 priest that was actually getting rude with me when i stopped dps'ing (was ret at the moment and top dps) the pull before the 3rd boss and started off healing. this was approximately 5 whipes into the dungeon but it was a group of friends so no big deal till the healer got a little upset and said why doesnt she just leave and let me heal, because 3 dps makes it take longer, to which i replied "so does whipeing" (hadnt done it yet so didnt realize it was an 80 dungeon and probly wouldnt have gone with a 75 healer if i had known)
Not directing this at you, but dont blame bad healing on a lag spike/big hit/other person/etc, people arent stupid, as a tank im watching my health bar for incomimg heals, watching party health, and keeping an eye on the healer, and when i go down, i know exactly why i went down, wether it was bad healing, my fault, or a big hit, and in the rare occassion that i dont know what happened, i look at the combat log. Makeing excuses for why you couldnt heal in time, or someone got in your way, or a big hit that never happened, good tanks know whats going on around them, makeing an excuse that is an obvious lie to anyone paying attention only makes you look bad, and when im eating 8+ gold repair bills ill call you on it
A good healer doesnt spam heal himself while soul stoned, watching the tank die. I use agunitframes, and nothing i hate more then watching my health bar slowly drain, seeing no faded bar indicating a heal is coming my way, tank and heals are top priority, if healer is soulstoned, tank is top priority, cant tell you how many times ive solo killed raid/heroic bosses from 50% on with just me and a healer because dps doesnt do what i explain.
I've even solo'd a handfull of raid bosses by myself with no heals from 40%-50% health on my own, which makes me want to punch people in the face when they whipe a boss fight because no dps is left or no heals when boss is semi close to dead so tank gives up (dps turning around and running because they "predict" that we might whipe is another button pusher to **** me off but were not talking about dps XD).
Also, healing talents are there for a reason, take advantage of any talent that will be beneficial. Some priests/pally's will argue that divine spirit/beacon of light arent worth putting points in, and it makes me laugh inside that they call themselves healers. those are the healers that in a tight spot, have no utility spells to keep the fight going and whipe on what could have easily not been
Dont over estimate your healing capabilities or get over confident about your healing, was in halls of lightning last night with a 75 priest that was actually getting rude with me when i stopped dps'ing (was ret at the moment and top dps) the pull before the 3rd boss and started off healing. this was approximately 5 whipes into the dungeon but it was a group of friends so no big deal till the healer got a little upset and said why doesnt she just leave and let me heal, because 3 dps makes it take longer, to which i replied "so does whipeing" (hadnt done it yet so didnt realize it was an 80 dungeon and probly wouldnt have gone with a 75 healer if i had known)
Not directing this at you, but dont blame bad healing on a lag spike/big hit/other person/etc, people arent stupid, as a tank im watching my health bar for incomimg heals, watching party health, and keeping an eye on the healer, and when i go down, i know exactly why i went down, wether it was bad healing, my fault, or a big hit, and in the rare occassion that i dont know what happened, i look at the combat log. Makeing excuses for why you couldnt heal in time, or someone got in your way, or a big hit that never happened, good tanks know whats going on around them, makeing an excuse that is an obvious lie to anyone paying attention only makes you look bad, and when im eating 8+ gold repair bills ill call you on it
I agree with the majority of posts here. In a dungeon I want the healer to:
1. Keep me alive
1a. Keep him/herself alive
2. Make sure I have all of the buffs you can give me and keep them up when they are about to run out.
3. Heal the DPS if you have time and they really need it, otherwise tell them to lern2omen, lern2bandage, or lern2healthpot.
I don't know how many random DPS I have run into that will go into a 5-man with no healing potions and no bandages. I know that these now have cooldowns that make it so you cannot spam-heal yourself using multiple pots and bandages in the same combat, but they do still have a use. If the DPS brings pots and bandages and still refuses to use them because it "cuts down on their DPS to spend time doing that" then that is even worse.
I am not saying DPS should come to a 5-man with buff foods, pots, bandages, elixers, flasks, etc. (that would be overkill for 5-mans) but a few healing pots and a few bandages should be in their bags. If it is a heroic and I haven't done it before, any DPS that brings all the extras, uses them properly, and uses omen usually gets an add to my friends list and probably even asked if they would be interested in joining my guild.
I realize that this rant turned into more of what I expect from DPS than what I expect from the healer, but for the smoothest most efficient runs, it requires teamwork from everyone, and in my experience it is the DPS that drops the ball more often than the healer or the tank.
1. Keep me alive
1a. Keep him/herself alive
2. Make sure I have all of the buffs you can give me and keep them up when they are about to run out.
3. Heal the DPS if you have time and they really need it, otherwise tell them to lern2omen, lern2bandage, or lern2healthpot.
I don't know how many random DPS I have run into that will go into a 5-man with no healing potions and no bandages. I know that these now have cooldowns that make it so you cannot spam-heal yourself using multiple pots and bandages in the same combat, but they do still have a use. If the DPS brings pots and bandages and still refuses to use them because it "cuts down on their DPS to spend time doing that" then that is even worse.
I am not saying DPS should come to a 5-man with buff foods, pots, bandages, elixers, flasks, etc. (that would be overkill for 5-mans) but a few healing pots and a few bandages should be in their bags. If it is a heroic and I haven't done it before, any DPS that brings all the extras, uses them properly, and uses omen usually gets an add to my friends list and probably even asked if they would be interested in joining my guild.
I realize that this rant turned into more of what I expect from DPS than what I expect from the healer, but for the smoothest most efficient runs, it requires teamwork from everyone, and in my experience it is the DPS that drops the ball more often than the healer or the tank.
Gone is the day when you are told not to shield tanks. Anything that reduces damage should be used if you think you are going to need it. With Sanc, no pally tank should have mana issues. Even without sanc, on a boss fight a paladins threat lead should be so high by the time he runs out of his initial mana bar + divine plea that the mana he would have gained back from being hit shouldnt matter. Most boss fights arent lasting so long to where a Tank being oom means the DPS are gonna pull aggro. Warrior and Druids are gaining so much threat from the damage they are putting out that shielding them from damage taken isnt a big deal. I havent grped with many DKs but i doubt they are any different.
Healing the DPS is your JOB. Theres no its, ands or buts about it. If a DPS is going out of his way to take damage, you can politely tell him that you may not be able to heal him thru what he is doing. Hes either gonna stop, or he'll die. With beacon of light, theres really no reason or excuse you can give to not heal the other 3 ppl in the group no matter what is going on. Its much more effective to keep all 5 ppl alive and finish the instance quickly!
Healing the DPS is your JOB. Theres no its, ands or buts about it. If a DPS is going out of his way to take damage, you can politely tell him that you may not be able to heal him thru what he is doing. Hes either gonna stop, or he'll die. With beacon of light, theres really no reason or excuse you can give to not heal the other 3 ppl in the group no matter what is going on. Its much more effective to keep all 5 ppl alive and finish the instance quickly!
crazeecracker wrote:
Healing the DPS as long as the tank is taken care of is your JOB.
Fixed. There are ifs, ands, or buts about healing if you really think about it. No one is (or at least shouldn't) going to heal some DPS if it means the tank is going to die. Your post makes it seem like healing DPS is a top priority, and while keeping them alive is indeed important, it takes a back seat to keeping yourself and the tank alive.
How likely is a tank/healer to be able to finish a fight and then recover the group? Now, how likely is a DPS/healer to do the same?
Keep the tank alive. Keep yourself alive. THEN, when that's all taken care of, keep the DPS alive.
My mistake, upon reading several of the posts it seemed that people were saying...***** the dps unless they are playing perfectly. That rarely happens, i certainly did not mean to ignore the tank, obviously. Its generally not often that you have a tank and dps dying at the exact same rate, at the exact same time. My post was mainly stating that you need to heal the dps no matter how bad they are. And for the record, if the tank dies, and the 3 dps are alive. SEVERAL of the heroic bosses can actually be tanked by the Holy Pally, speaking from experience! :)
Ideally, of course, your DPS should know how to react when they get aggro (hint: unless the mob is at 5% health, the answer is not cranking up the DPS). For me as ret, i got my stun, my hand of salvation, my precious bubbles. should those fail, my next task is stand still and heal myself until the healer catches up.
crazeecracker wrote:
My post was mainly stating that you need to heal the dps no matter how bad they are.
(1) If the DPS takes normal splash damage, or gets hit en passant by adds, you heal them.
(2) If the DPS stands in the fire, you heal them until it compromises your ability to keep the party alive.
(3) As nice as it might feel, you don't let them die just to teach them a lesson.
Eventually, either they'll learn by themselves, or (3) will morph into (2) and you can let them die with a clean conscience.
Scholar
37 posts
I am a pally tank, and have a pally healer that tells the party that he will be healing me. They will be okay as long as I am alive.
As a healer you must let the tank know when you are silenced or stunned. I have a few abilities of my own that I will use if you cannot heal. I hate to use my Lay on Hands on trash pull, especially with a boss coming up next, but I will. I need time to find my cursor or key to use those abilities though.
Keep the dps alive. I cannot always finish the fight alone. They only need to be alive, not necessarily at 100%.
I know you are keeping an eye on the health bars, but watch the fight as well. I may not be aware of a mob capable of healing and need to be informed for the next pull.
Good Luck
As a healer you must let the tank know when you are silenced or stunned. I have a few abilities of my own that I will use if you cannot heal. I hate to use my Lay on Hands on trash pull, especially with a boss coming up next, but I will. I need time to find my cursor or key to use those abilities though.
Keep the dps alive. I cannot always finish the fight alone. They only need to be alive, not necessarily at 100%.
I know you are keeping an eye on the health bars, but watch the fight as well. I may not be aware of a mob capable of healing and need to be informed for the next pull.
Good Luck
crazeecracker wrote:
Gone is the day when you are told not to shield tanks. Anything that reduces damage should be used if you think you are going to need it. With Sanc, no pally tank should have mana issues. Even without sanc, on a boss fight a paladins threat lead should be so high by the time he runs out of his initial mana bar + divine plea that the mana he would have gained back from being hit shouldnt matter. Most boss fights arent lasting so long to where a Tank being oom means the DPS are gonna pull aggro. Warrior and Druids are gaining so much threat from the damage they are putting out that shielding them from damage taken isnt a big deal. I havent grped with many DKs but i doubt they are any different.
I told our holy priest to stop shielding me today after I found myself going OOM on a regular basis in reg Utgarde Pinnacle. Caster pulls mean I'm not getting the blocks/parries/dodges to proc BoSanc so I'd rather soak the damage and get some mana back via heals so I can continue a full threat rotation.
Quote:
Healing the DPS is your JOB. Theres no its, ands or buts about it. If a DPS is going out of his way to take damage, you can politely tell him that you may not be able to heal him thru what he is doing. Hes either gonna stop, or he'll die. With beacon of light, theres really no reason or excuse you can give to not heal the other 3 ppl in the group no matter what is going on. Its much more effective to keep all 5 ppl alive and finish the instance quickly!
It's situational. It depends on the type of tank (healing threat in heroics with a bear tank can become a serious issue if you've got a geared healer spamming heals on sloppy dps). Nobody is suggesting to not heal dps ever...but if you've got dps pulling threat and then continuing to nuke the target that's chewing their face off, they become a liability. Let them die.
Quote:
I told our holy priest to stop shielding me today after I found myself going OOM on a regular basis in reg Utgarde Pinnacle. Caster pulls mean I'm not getting the blocks/parries/dodges to proc BoSanc so I'd rather soak the damage and get some mana back via heals so I can continue a full threat rotation.
Having mana problems in UP? I've never ever had mana problems in that instance yet, actually I very rarely have mana problems even if the healer spam shield etc.. Just use divine plea ;)
As a paly tank I don't mind getting the shield so long as you let the DPS know you plan on doing it - thus Hold off... This is particularly true on single pulls where I can stack a ton of agro quickly on one mob.
Don't keep it up all the time, but to start the fight, or ignore a quick damage burst - It's ok.
If you keep my mana up (Paly ability) I'm happy. If you keep me at 100% health and I'm running low on mana - I'll sit down and eat a big hit. Your mana is effectively my health and mana.
If you get in trouble - run to me. If you are not sure where to be there are only 3 places for you to stand. Behind the mob, on the side of the mob, or in my consecration. You can DPS if you can heal too - frankly - I don't care what you do - so long as you keep me up.
Don't shackle the undead with a paly tank. I have an AOE stun that is awesome and stacks a ton of agro.
DPS die. They do it a lot. Don't pull agro saving someone stupid. I can save him, but if I'm choosing to let him die - don't decide you're going to help him. He's clearly stupid - throwing 10k worth of heals on him will pull agro onto you... The only people who matter on 9/10 fights are you and me. If either of us die we fail.
Speak up. If something is wrong - tell us. So many DPS like to talk... So many healers are quiet???
Don't keep it up all the time, but to start the fight, or ignore a quick damage burst - It's ok.
If you keep my mana up (Paly ability) I'm happy. If you keep me at 100% health and I'm running low on mana - I'll sit down and eat a big hit. Your mana is effectively my health and mana.
If you get in trouble - run to me. If you are not sure where to be there are only 3 places for you to stand. Behind the mob, on the side of the mob, or in my consecration. You can DPS if you can heal too - frankly - I don't care what you do - so long as you keep me up.
Don't shackle the undead with a paly tank. I have an AOE stun that is awesome and stacks a ton of agro.
DPS die. They do it a lot. Don't pull agro saving someone stupid. I can save him, but if I'm choosing to let him die - don't decide you're going to help him. He's clearly stupid - throwing 10k worth of heals on him will pull agro onto you... The only people who matter on 9/10 fights are you and me. If either of us die we fail.
Speak up. If something is wrong - tell us. So many DPS like to talk... So many healers are quiet???
I think the biggest thing a healer, who knows his stuff can do is speak up and help lead. If the tank needs pointers give them, if the DPS does, give them, if you know strat, tell it. I think sometimes peeps get miffed at me as a tank because I ask them to interupt, stay on the kill order, get CC off faster and if the healer would chime in to it would help. No one will ever not bring a healer because he gives out good advice or comes off as a little bossy.
crazeecracker wrote:
My mistake, upon reading several of the posts it seemed that people were saying...***** the dps unless they are playing perfectly. That rarely happens, i certainly did not mean to ignore the tank, obviously. Its generally not often that you have a tank and dps dying at the exact same rate, at the exact same time. My post was mainly stating that you need to heal the dps no matter how bad they are. And for the record, if the tank dies, and the 3 dps are alive. SEVERAL of the heroic bosses can actually be tanked by the Holy Pally, speaking from experience! :)
Heal the tank first, heal yourself second if you take secondary damage (if you're getting hit there's something wrong), heal dps next if you can spare it. Know your dps and prioritize; for instance - a hunter can FD (30 sec CD) and then bandage so he loses priority to the melee Shammy. If your Rogue does twice the damage (not dps!) as the dps warrior then he gets priority. Don't worry about which dps is a dope. If you have the time and opportunity, heal. If not, they should have an "oh sh't" button available.
Healing is a cold, calculating operation. Whenever I've lost site of that and tossed a heal to a dpser who has been QQing or joking lately about dying so much (not necessarily about not getting heals), it has had consequences. It always seems that's when the boss lands two or three blows in quick succession and beats down the tank.
It's been said before: If the tank dies it's the healer's fault, if the healer dies it's the tank's fault, if the dps dies it's their own damn fault - lrn 2 OMEN.
"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
Hermann Goering, April 1946.
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