After patch 3.0, I noticed a lot of my guildies had a rather large spike in their DPS just from the new talents. As a feral, it didn't seem my overall DPS actually increased much. Whether this was a partial gain from talents and a partial loss from changing powershifting to the energy return on Tiger's Fury or whatever, my DPS just didn't seem to change a lot.
Doing instances in Wrath my DPS seemed about the same as it was at 70 as I leveled through Utgarde Keep to Azjol-Nerub, etc, at about ~1000-1100 (Yes I know, I probably suck).
And then I hit 75. Savage Roar is AMAZING. My DPS in Azjol-Nerub spiked from ~1100 to 1615 after getting this move. Just seeing some of the numbers you can get made me giddy (I recall a >9k ferocious bite at one point).
Furthermore, it makes juggling CP a lot easier. With just Ferocious Bite and Rip, if Rip was ticking I always had to think "Gee, if I FB now, I'll have 0 energy. Will I be able to get 5 CP again before Rip falls, or just a little afterwards?". This was always especially frustrating if that last CP landed when I had a decent amount of energy, because I had to move away from a boss and couldn't spend it, etc. Just having a new move that doesn't eat ALL your energy gives you so much more flexibility in spending CP that it refreshed my love of feral DPS.
I guess the whole point of this is just to let any ferals leveling up know what's in store, and to let them know if the local boomkin etc has been bragging about his damage, don't worry, the game really is balanced around 80 ;)
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Because it needs its own post, Savage Roar.Follow
I for one noticed a decent spike in my feral DPS after 3.0. I can somewhat attribute this to the raid zone mob nerfs but not entirely as I also noticed my dps go up while doing my daily quests. Only by about 100 or so doing dailies but at least 200-300 in raids.
At 75 I got Savage Roar and yea, I'm not THAT impressed by it. It's definitely nice but I find its utility lies mainly in longer boss fights (which in Wrath aren't even that long). Typically I'll work the first 5 combo points up to use Savage Roar then spam my way to the next 5 and unleash a Ferocious Bite (I crit for 11k last night, on average though my FB crits are 5000-9000).
Even prior to Wrath, with just the introduction of 3.0, I found I stopped using Rip altogether. Doing the numbers it seemed to me that Ferocious Bite has the potential for way more dps. So far it hasn't let me down, last night in heroic Gundrak I topped out at 1500 dps for the first half of the instance and finished off a little over 1400 dps. My standard feral dps rotation has become Mangle x 1, Shred x 4 then Ferocious Bite, rinse and repeat. Mixed in there is the occasional Rake (not sure why lol) and the more occasional Berserk.
But back to Savage Roar, it's nice on boss fights if I can get the 5 point AP buff then quickly get another 5 points, and if I can squeeze a Berserk off in there before unleashing my FB that's just gravy on the taters.
At 75 I got Savage Roar and yea, I'm not THAT impressed by it. It's definitely nice but I find its utility lies mainly in longer boss fights (which in Wrath aren't even that long). Typically I'll work the first 5 combo points up to use Savage Roar then spam my way to the next 5 and unleash a Ferocious Bite (I crit for 11k last night, on average though my FB crits are 5000-9000).
Even prior to Wrath, with just the introduction of 3.0, I found I stopped using Rip altogether. Doing the numbers it seemed to me that Ferocious Bite has the potential for way more dps. So far it hasn't let me down, last night in heroic Gundrak I topped out at 1500 dps for the first half of the instance and finished off a little over 1400 dps. My standard feral dps rotation has become Mangle x 1, Shred x 4 then Ferocious Bite, rinse and repeat. Mixed in there is the occasional Rake (not sure why lol) and the more occasional Berserk.
But back to Savage Roar, it's nice on boss fights if I can get the 5 point AP buff then quickly get another 5 points, and if I can squeeze a Berserk off in there before unleashing my FB that's just gravy on the taters.
Try Savage Roar with the first combo point. More combo points increase duration not effect. Your wasting combo points and energy. Just make sure to keep it up.
Judge when to pop it based on TF being available, how fast your generating CPs and your energy level. How long do you need it to last for your desired rotation?
With a FB based rotation I would SR with my first CP, get off that first FB then TF up some energy to get a 5pt SR up as energy will be spikier with FB so the longer duration will give it less chance of falling off.
Judge when to pop it based on TF being available, how fast your generating CPs and your energy level. How long do you need it to last for your desired rotation?
With a FB based rotation I would SR with my first CP, get off that first FB then TF up some energy to get a 5pt SR up as energy will be spikier with FB so the longer duration will give it less chance of falling off.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Color me unimpressed as well. It would be great on long boss fights, but I've yet to see a boss survive for more than 30 secs in WotLK. Absent that it seems largely a waste of energy and combo points. You pounce, mangle shred to open, do you really wanna burn three cps on SR? I usually only use it if a mob is about to die and autoattacks will finish it off, so I have extra ap for the next pull, or on bosses. It does give a nice boost to my damage, but the boss usually isn't up long enough for that to matter. And in PvP it seems borderline useless. I'd rather maim than SR if I've got combos up.
tuskerdu wrote:
Color me unimpressed as well. It would be great on long boss fights, but I've yet to see a boss survive for more than 30 secs in WotLK. Absent that it seems largely a waste of energy and combo points. You pounce, mangle shred to open, do you really wanna burn three cps on SR? I usually only use it if a mob is about to die and autoattacks will finish it off, so I have extra ap for the next pull, or on bosses. It does give a nice boost to my damage, but the boss usually isn't up long enough for that to matter. And in PvP it seems borderline useless. I'd rather maim than SR if I've got combos up.
Pounce, Roar, Mangle, Shred to 5, Rip, Mangle, Roar, Shred to 5, Rip/FB, etc.
Always Roar first. Any good rogue does the same thing and blows their opener CP (Cheap Shot or Garrote, usually) on a starter SnD.
Edited, Nov 26th 2008 3:11pm by Norellicus
the best part of savage roar to me is the sound effect. so cool.
as for bosses, once you get the the high 70's instances, stuff stops dying so fast. halls of lightning and halls of stone, among others, all have bosses that take quite a beating before they go down.
as for bosses, once you get the the high 70's instances, stuff stops dying so fast. halls of lightning and halls of stone, among others, all have bosses that take quite a beating before they go down.
Scholar
34 posts
I for one am in love with this ability on the rare chance that I am feral. I was bored and a friend needed a DPS for Gundrak, so off I go to an instance a few levels below me. Get to the last boss, pop savage roar, 5 CP, BAM 14.5k FB. I almost wet myself. For reference, that SR put me just above 8k AP. (The staff that drops in heroic violet hold is damn nice. Almost 2k AP from it alone, maybe a bit over. Not thinking too straight right now)
Thanks to SR I had 2300 DPS on that boss fight. I was damn proud of that since I'm nowhere near pro as feral. Generally resto where I do consider myself damn good. =D
Thanks to SR I had 2300 DPS on that boss fight. I was damn proud of that since I'm nowhere near pro as feral. Generally resto where I do consider myself damn good. =D
tuskerdu wrote:
Color me unimpressed as well. It would be great on long boss fights, but I've yet to see a boss survive for more than 30 secs in WotLK. Absent that it seems largely a waste of energy and combo points. You pounce, mangle shred to open, do you really wanna burn three cps on SR? I usually only use it if a mob is about to die and autoattacks will finish it off, so I have extra ap for the next pull, or on bosses. It does give a nice boost to my damage, but the boss usually isn't up long enough for that to matter. And in PvP it seems borderline useless. I'd rather maim than SR if I've got combos up.
I completely disagree with this view. SR is like an extra uber-trinket that you can launch pretty much any time you want. If I get lucky and put three critted Mangles on an enemy, usually it's almost dead anyway. So instead I pop a SR with 5 points, netting me over 30 seconds of a ~1400 AP bonus (this is at level 76, with all level 70 PvP gear; still no upgrades, but I'm completing each zone entirely before I move on, so I just got to Dragonblight).
My trinkets, in comparison, give around 320-350 AP when popped, have a two minute cooldown, and only last 20 seconds. My damage goes through the roof with SR up. My Mangle crits jump in damage by about 600+ on a crit (ie, in Winterspring right now for Wintersaber rep, 2200 to 2800). It is an amazing buff; you just need to use it at the right times; either keep a 5-point going at the end of a battle where a FB would be wasted, or pop it right after your first CP, so you still get (12?) seconds, enough to last most fights. It's an amazing move, and a huge increase for the spec that I, too, felt wasn't upgraded quite as much as the others during 3.0.2.
Edit: Played a paladin too long; it's SR, not SoR.
Edited, Nov 27th 2008 9:41am by LockeColeMA
I'm confused here. I understand its utility in boss fights or if there are spare combo points available on a mob that's dying soon. But unless you're chain-pulling, why Pounce-SR-Mangle-Mangle-etc? (Not enough energy to shred in there w/out a proc.) Why not the old standby of pounce/mangle/shred and then maim, shred, next mob? Seems faster. With glyph and RnT, normal mobs dont survive a pounce/mangle/shred/maim/shred (a mere 5 seconds of fighting, very efficient grinding), so why drag it out w a roar unless there's another two or three I'm just about to fight?
Don't get me wrong, this is clearly a great raid ability, and since I'm gonna be kitty at 80 given the DK tank glut I'm glad its around. But it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in leveling or pvp, unlike, say, my mage's new abilities.
Edited, Nov 27th 2008 11:21am by tuskerdu
Don't get me wrong, this is clearly a great raid ability, and since I'm gonna be kitty at 80 given the DK tank glut I'm glad its around. But it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in leveling or pvp, unlike, say, my mage's new abilities.
Edited, Nov 27th 2008 11:21am by tuskerdu
Just got it. Damn.
Hit it with 1 CP while questing and nothing lives for much longer. Usually they die before I can FB, Maim or whatever.
It should be popped with the first CP you get. In all cases.
Unless the first is for a Main stun but otherwise always.
Hit it with 1 CP while questing and nothing lives for much longer. Usually they die before I can FB, Maim or whatever.
It should be popped with the first CP you get. In all cases.
Unless the first is for a Main stun but otherwise always.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Using on the first CP is a good idea I'd never really thought of. Considering how fast basic non-elites die it makes perfect sense that all I'd need is like 5-10 seconds which is well within the time limit of the buff on one CP.
I have to say, I love it too. Situational use, but when I get a chance to use it, it really makes a difference. I normally tank in instances (my wife is a priest so we make our groups) so I probably won't get a chance to use it on elites or bosses, but in normal questing, it's extremely useful.
Especially playing duo, stuff dies so fast I often don't have time to use my combo points at all. With Roar, I can use points I accumulate on one unlucky first victim and use it to gain a tremendous amount of power to rip apart all the next targets that much faster.
Especially playing duo, stuff dies so fast I often don't have time to use my combo points at all. With Roar, I can use points I accumulate on one unlucky first victim and use it to gain a tremendous amount of power to rip apart all the next targets that much faster.
Nuit Midril - White Mage/Scholar on Ultros
Nuit the Insane! - Retired Druid on Sentinels.
Ombre - Retired Dragoon/bard on Phoenix.
I'm really surprised so many people are only marginally or situationally excited by our new roar. I luvs it! When I'm questing I manage to keep it up pretty much full time quite easily which means 90% of my combat I'm rollin' with around 5k attack power, instead of my normal measly 3500. Keeping the roar up has boosted my DPS by 16%, 600 to 700 per Recount. And that's just FFF+mangle spam...I can't WAIT to try it with a nice mangling+shredding+ripping rotation in an instance.
Horsemouth wrote:
Just got it. Damn.
Hit it with 1 CP while questing and nothing lives for much longer. Usually they die before I can FB, Maim or whatever.
It should be popped with the first CP you get. In all cases.
Unless the first is for a Main stun but otherwise always.
Hit it with 1 CP while questing and nothing lives for much longer. Usually they die before I can FB, Maim or whatever.
It should be popped with the first CP you get. In all cases.
Unless the first is for a Main stun but otherwise always.
Really? I'm thinking in an instance I'm gonna wanna crank up 4-5 CPs (2-3 special attacks) and get a long-lasting roar that requires less maintenance/cooldowns. That's more time/cooldowns I can spend shredding.
No.
If you are DPS you should have the Rip glyph. SR 1st CP, combo points come fast. Rip at 4. Generate CPs till SR is about to fall, then SR.
Keep both up.
When both have a good amount of time and you hit 4-5 CPs then FB.
PWNAGE
If you are DPS you should have the Rip glyph. SR 1st CP, combo points come fast. Rip at 4. Generate CPs till SR is about to fall, then SR.
Keep both up.
When both have a good amount of time and you hit 4-5 CPs then FB.
PWNAGE
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
See, Rip even with a glyph amounts to, at most, 4k and change over 12 or 14 seconds (I fail to remember the exact numbers), while Ferocious Bite can do 4k or more in a single hit and be used again in 5 seconds or depending on how fast you can acquire combo points (conditions of the fight definitely come into play like if the mob is pinballing around, or if there is some aoe forcing you to move out from behind, etc).
I don't mean to try and step on anyone's toes by advocating an alternative to the standard mangle > shred x 4 > Rip ability rotation, I haven't crunched any numbers personally. It's just that Mangle > Shred x 4 > Ferocious Bite feels more efficient to me. And 1500 dps in Northrend heroics wearing mostly quest reward blues/greens isn't half bad IMO.
I don't mean to try and step on anyone's toes by advocating an alternative to the standard mangle > shred x 4 > Rip ability rotation, I haven't crunched any numbers personally. It's just that Mangle > Shred x 4 > Ferocious Bite feels more efficient to me. And 1500 dps in Northrend heroics wearing mostly quest reward blues/greens isn't half bad IMO.
Tavarde wrote:
And 1500 dps in Northrend heroics wearing mostly quest reward blues/greens isn't half bad IMO.
Doesn't sound bad to me, lookin' up from level 75, that's for damn sure.
What kinda stats do you have to be crankin' out that kinda DPS?
To Tavarde: I think your 4K max for a Rip is quite wrong. Your conclusion might hold though, especially for higher AP-values:
<<<< WARNING Mr. ROBINSON, WALL OF MATHY TEXT AHEAD!! >>>>
* Rip at 80 does: (534+0.05*AP)*6 damage without any bonuses. For example if AP=3,000 you get 4,104 damage over 12 seconds. Add in the mangle bleed bonus (30%): 1.3*4,104=5,335. Add in the Glyph of Rip: 5,335/12*14=6,224. Other bonuses may apply too I think (Naturalist?) but let's say they do not. Now mind you, this damage is NOT mitigated by armor. And - as you pointed out - still works in fights with "moving" involved.
* Ferocious Bite at 80 does: 1,570+0,35*AP base damage and for every energy above 35 you get another 9.4+AP/410 damage. In the example of AP=3,000 this means that FB does AT MAX 3,707 base damage. Add in the chance to crit with Rend and Tear active (let's say 85% total crit chance) and the crit bonus damage (including Predatory Instincts): 3,707*(85%*2.2+15%*1)=7,488 damage. Mind you, this is with a 100 energy Bite! (just for the numbercrunching, with 35 energy this becomes 5,292, which is much more likely to happen...). Again Naturalist is out of the equation. Let's assume that you do take the talent Feral Aggression too (+15%), since you always use Ferocious Bite: Bite does 6,086 to 8,611. Now armor mitigation, which often is something like 10%-20%, so let's say 15%: Bite does 5,173 to 7,319 damage.
At 10,000 AP Rip does 9,409 damage and Bite does 10,011 to 14,348 damage after mitigation. So the more AP you have, the more Bite gets better. The lower value of Bite is by the way by far the most common. With the 65 energy you would need to save to get additional damage you might do more by just using them!
What bugs me in the above is that you must "waste" 5 points in Feral Aggression, or else Rip (with Glyph and full duration) WILL outdamage your Bite. (at least, so it seems!)
<<<< WARNING Mr. ROBINSON, WALL OF MATHY TEXT AHEAD!! >>>>
* Rip at 80 does: (534+0.05*AP)*6 damage without any bonuses. For example if AP=3,000 you get 4,104 damage over 12 seconds. Add in the mangle bleed bonus (30%): 1.3*4,104=5,335. Add in the Glyph of Rip: 5,335/12*14=6,224. Other bonuses may apply too I think (Naturalist?) but let's say they do not. Now mind you, this damage is NOT mitigated by armor. And - as you pointed out - still works in fights with "moving" involved.
* Ferocious Bite at 80 does: 1,570+0,35*AP base damage and for every energy above 35 you get another 9.4+AP/410 damage. In the example of AP=3,000 this means that FB does AT MAX 3,707 base damage. Add in the chance to crit with Rend and Tear active (let's say 85% total crit chance) and the crit bonus damage (including Predatory Instincts): 3,707*(85%*2.2+15%*1)=7,488 damage. Mind you, this is with a 100 energy Bite! (just for the numbercrunching, with 35 energy this becomes 5,292, which is much more likely to happen...). Again Naturalist is out of the equation. Let's assume that you do take the talent Feral Aggression too (+15%), since you always use Ferocious Bite: Bite does 6,086 to 8,611. Now armor mitigation, which often is something like 10%-20%, so let's say 15%: Bite does 5,173 to 7,319 damage.
At 10,000 AP Rip does 9,409 damage and Bite does 10,011 to 14,348 damage after mitigation. So the more AP you have, the more Bite gets better. The lower value of Bite is by the way by far the most common. With the 65 energy you would need to save to get additional damage you might do more by just using them!
What bugs me in the above is that you must "waste" 5 points in Feral Aggression, or else Rip (with Glyph and full duration) WILL outdamage your Bite. (at least, so it seems!)
the way i see it now with glyphs, rip, FB and SR, is that you'll want to keep SR up full time. how many combos you use and how you choose to do this is up to you. but you want it up full time. after that, you want rip, because its a DoT, affected by mangle/trauma, and because it ignores armor.
that last part is the big thing. it ignores armor. even fully raid debuffed (sunder/EA+CoReck/FF) some mobs will still have some pretty hefty hunks of armor. given the chance of ArP from flat to percentage based, you can't effectively stack ArP to mitigate the rest, as some will ALWAYS be there, even on low armor mobs (some exceptions may apply depending on the mob). as such, rip will generally do better unless such a fight comes that you're fighting a boss with low enough armor to make up the difference.
if you can use a low energy FB to get about the same damage as rip, but in a shorter amount of time, why wouldnt you? likewise, if you can get an FB thats roughly equal to the damage of rip while rip is going on, then again, why wouldnt you? so, in theory, the best setup would likely be a situation where you can keep rip and SR up full time, inserting FB's as CP and time allows.
i still think, no matter how you cut it, that rip is still more important than FB from a raid dps perspective. if youre guaranteed to get that full duration of rip, it will outperform FB. if not, then use FB. but due to the DoT-and-armor-ignoring nature of rip and the necessity for a crit on FB (anything less than 100% crit is an unreliable thing) rip will still outperform FB on most ocassions.
thats my feeling on it.
that last part is the big thing. it ignores armor. even fully raid debuffed (sunder/EA+CoReck/FF) some mobs will still have some pretty hefty hunks of armor. given the chance of ArP from flat to percentage based, you can't effectively stack ArP to mitigate the rest, as some will ALWAYS be there, even on low armor mobs (some exceptions may apply depending on the mob). as such, rip will generally do better unless such a fight comes that you're fighting a boss with low enough armor to make up the difference.
if you can use a low energy FB to get about the same damage as rip, but in a shorter amount of time, why wouldnt you? likewise, if you can get an FB thats roughly equal to the damage of rip while rip is going on, then again, why wouldnt you? so, in theory, the best setup would likely be a situation where you can keep rip and SR up full time, inserting FB's as CP and time allows.
i still think, no matter how you cut it, that rip is still more important than FB from a raid dps perspective. if youre guaranteed to get that full duration of rip, it will outperform FB. if not, then use FB. but due to the DoT-and-armor-ignoring nature of rip and the necessity for a crit on FB (anything less than 100% crit is an unreliable thing) rip will still outperform FB on most ocassions.
thats my feeling on it.
The Combo "Mangle-> Shred till 4/5 CP -> FB
is the weekest dps combo u can do.
For max. DPS:
Keep SR up all times, keep Rip up all times, keep Rake up all times(yes Rake -> its the ability with the most DPE),
shred if u can spare energy, FB if u can get it in without letting SR and Rip running out.
is the weekest dps combo u can do.
For max. DPS:
Keep SR up all times, keep Rip up all times, keep Rake up all times(yes Rake -> its the ability with the most DPE),
shred if u can spare energy, FB if u can get it in without letting SR and Rip running out.
What about on Loatheb where you get to +50% chance to crit buff? That gives you basically 100% chance to crit with FB on bleeding mobs with rend and tear (assuming you hit ofc).
On a side note:
Did anyone notice the 2-set bonus of the feral T7 gear? "Increase the duration of rip by 3 sec". What the heck is that extra second good for if rip ticks every 2 sec?! Uuuuh yay an extra sec of no damage...
On a side note:
Did anyone notice the 2-set bonus of the feral T7 gear? "Increase the duration of rip by 3 sec". What the heck is that extra second good for if rip ticks every 2 sec?! Uuuuh yay an extra sec of no damage...
I dont take Loatheb fight for DPS messurement.^^
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