ThreatFollow

#1 Nov 25 2008 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good

Scholar

1,331 posts

The question of threat, from glyphs and what-not, has been filtering around in this forum and others. So I thought I would relink and repost something on tankspot.

The original is http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/39775-wow-3-0-threat-values.html.

A link to the Threat addon they used for this is http://evilempireguild.org/ui/Threat.zip

Quote:

A summary! These are for a level 80 character.

Modifiers
Code:

Battle Stance ______________________   x 80 
Berserker Stance ___________________   x 80 
Tactical Mastery ___________________   x 121/142/163 
Defensive Stance ___________________   x 207.35

Note that in the original threat estimations (that we used in WoW 2.0), we equated 1 damage to 1 threat, and used 1.495 to represent the stance+defiance multiplier. We see that Blizzard's method is to use the multiplier without decimals, so in 2.x it would've been x149 (maybe x149.5); it is x207 (maybe 207.3) in 3.0. I expect that this is to allow the transport of integer values instead of decimal values across the Internet for efficiency. It appears that threat values are multiplied by 207.35 at the server, then rounded.

If you still want to use the 1 damage = 1 threat method, the stance modifiers are 0.8 and 2.0735, etc.

Threat Values (stance modifiers apply unless otherwise noted):
Code:

Battle Shout _______________________   78 (split) (verified build 9138) 
Cleave _____________________________   damage + 225 (split) (verified build 9138) 
Commanding Shout ___________________   80 (split) (verified build 9138) 
Concussion Blow ____________________   damage only (verified build 9138) 
Damage Shield ______________________   damage only (verified build 9138) 
Demoralising Shout _________________   63 (split) (verified build 9138) 
Devastate __________________________   damage + 5% of AP (verified build 9138) 
Dodge/Parry/Block___________________   1 (in defensive stance with Improved Defensive Stance only) (verified build 9138) 
Heroic Strike ______________________   damage + 259 (verified build 9138) 
Heroic Throw _______________________   1.50 x damage (verified build 9138) 
Rage Gain __________________________   5 (stance modifier is not applied) (verified build 9138) 
Rend _______________________________   damage only (verified build 9138) 
Revenge ____________________________   damage + 121 (verified build 9138) 
Shield Bash ________________________   36 (verified build 9138) 
Shield Slam ________________________   damage + 770 (verified build 9138) 
Shockwave __________________________   damage only (verified build 9138) 
Slam _______________________________   damage + 140 
Spell Reflect ______________________   damage only (only for spells aimed at you) (verified build 9138) 
Social Aggro _______________________   0 
Sunder Armour ______________________   345 + 5%AP (verified build 9138) 
Thunder Clap _______________________   1.85 x damage (verified build 9138) 
Vigilance __________________________   10% of target's generated threat (stance modifier is not applied)

You do not gain threat for refecting spells targetted at allies with Improved Spell Reflect. When you reflect a spell for an ally, your ally gains the threat for the damage dealt by the reflected spell.

Build 9138 - Glyph results below are verified for build 9138

Glyph of Sunder Armor will apply Sunder to the secondary target whether you use Devastate or Sunder. Threat gain is as follows:
Code:

Hit Target 1 with Devastate:  
    Target 1: threat = Damage + 5%AP 
    Target 2: threat = 345 + 5%AP 
 
Hit Target 1 with Sunder: 
    Target 1: threat = 345 + 5%AP  
    Target 2: threat = 345 + 5%AP

That is to say,
1) If a Sunder is used on the first target, a normal Sunder is applied to both targets and the normal Sunder threat is generated on both targets.

2) If a Devastate is used on the first target, the normal Devastate threat is generated on the first target, and normal Sunder threat is generated on the second target.

Calculations follow, below. If you see anything that I've done wrong, let me know so I can fix and/or re-test.

Edited, Nov 25th 2008 11:11am by devioususer

▲ Page top

Quote Reply

#2 Nov 25 2008 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good

__DEL__1591896429935

Scholar

1,331 posts

Quote:

(Note that in some cases I left my shield on, so rage gain from Shield Specialisation varies the threat numbers a very small amount off of the "perfect" number.)

Social Aggro
Gives zero threat.

Rage Gain
One point of rage generated gives 500 threat. This is not multiplied by the stance multiplier. This is not better than Sunder Armour, which at 438 normalised threat, yields 90797 threat in defensive stance. Rage always gives 500 threat.

Defensive Stance
Verifying others' findings, I hit some mobs a few times in defensive stance to get the defensive stance modifier:
452 damage creats 97322 threat. The defensive stance modifier is 207.3
(The modifier for battle stance and berserker stance is 80)

Damage Shield
Generates no innate threat, just the threat from damage done (modified by stance)

Revenge - Build 9014 update
1674 total damage at 2618 attack power, 372193 threat. Normalise to 1795 and subtract 1674 to get 121 innate threat
1683 total damage at 1780 attack power, 374059 threat. Normalise to 1804 and subtract 1683 to get 121 innate threat

Revenge now has 121 innate threat, independent of AP.

Heroic Throw
Heroic throw is nice because the mob has to run to you, so the threat number gets updated without any melee hits. Too easy!

2618AP: 1700 throw damage, 528742 threat. Normalised threat is 2550, and removing (1700) damage leaves 850 innate threat
2044AP: 609 throw damage, 189414 threat. Normalised threat is 913 and removing (609) damage leaves 304 innate threat
1916AP: 579 throw damage, 180084 threat. Normalised threat is 868 and removing (579) damage leaves 289 innate threat

We see that Heroic Throw doesn't use a flat modifier. If we do this, though:

2618AP: 1700 throw damage, 528742 threat. Normalised threat is 2550, and dividing by damage done (1700) we get 1.50
2044AP: 609 throw damage, 189414 threat. Normalised threat is 913 and dividing by damage done (609) we get 1.50
1916AP: 579 throw damage, 180084 threat. Normalised threat is 868 and dividing by damage done (579) we get 1.50

We conclude that Heroic Throw generates 150% of damage as threat.

Sunder Armour
see next post for updated numbers.

Shield Bash
No damage dealt by Shield Bash.

2618AP: 7464 threat. Normalised threat is 36
2044AP: 7464 threat. Normalised threat is 36

We conclude that Shield Bash has a flat 36 innate threat, independent of AP.

Heroic Strike
I just let the mob beat on me until I had rage to HS, then recorded the value. No extra melee hits.

2618AP: 813 damage, 222280 threat. Normalised threat is 1072, and removing 813 damage leaves 259 innate threat
2044AP: 796 damage, 218755 threat. Normalised threat is 1055, and removing 796 damage leaves 259 innate threat
1916AP: 733 damage, 205692 threat. Normalised threat is 992, and removing 733 damage leaves 259 innate threat

We conclude that Heroic Strike has a flat 259 innate threat, independent of AP.

Cleave
As with Heroic Strike.

One target:
2618AP: 577 damage, 166295 threat. Normalised threat is 802, and removing 577 damage leaves 225 innate threat

Two targets:
2618AP - Target 1: 570 damage, 141516 threat. Normalised threat is 682.5, and removing 570 damage leaves 112.5 innate threat
2618AP - Target 2: 1201 damage, 272354 threat. Normalised threat is 1313.5, and removing 1201 damage leaves 112.5 innate threat

We conclude that Cleave has a flat 225 innate threat, independent of AP. If there is one target, the full 225 is applied to it. If two, half of the 225 is applied to each.

Shield Slam
Beat up one mob, then move to another and slam it in the face. A melee attack usually slipped in, so we'll account for it.

2618AP - 548 melee damage, 2648 shield slam damage, 822350 threat. Normalised threat is 3966, and removing (548 + 2648) damage leaves 770 innate threat
2408AP - 0 melee damage, 2396 shield slam damage, 656470 threat. Normalised threat is 3166, and removing 2396 damage leaves 770 innate threat
2204AP - 465 melee damage, 2432 shield slam damage, 760352 threat. Normalised threat is 3667, and removing (465 + 2432) damage leaves 770 innate threat
2048AP - 1005 melee damage, 2596 shield slam damage, 906327 threat. Normalised threat is 4371, and removing (1005 + 2596) damage leaves 770 innate threat

We conclude that Shield Slam has a flat 770 innate threat, independent of AP.

Shockwave
Beat up one mob, then move to another and boom.

2204AP - 1080 shockwave damage, 223939 threat. Normalised threat is 1080, and removing 1080 damage leaves 0 innate threat
2048AP - 1206 shockwave damage, 250064 threat. Normalised threat is 1206, and removing 1206 damage leaves 0 innate threat

We conclude that Shockwave has no innate threat component.

Concussion Blow
2618AP - 515 melee damage, 1007 c.blow damage, 315586 threat. Normalised threat is 1522, and removing (515 + 1007) damage leaves 0 innate threat
2204AP - 493 melee damage, 2104 c.blow damage, 538488 threat. Normalised threat is 2597, and removing (493 + 1206) damage leaves 0 innate threat

We conclude that Concussion Blow has no innate threat component.

Devastate
I am still testing to confirm 100% but it appears that in WoW 3.0 Devastate applies the Sunder Armour debuff but does not give the threat for it. You gain only the threat from the damage done by the Devastate, plus the innate threat (see below).

One Devastate:
2608AP - 600 melee damage, 535 devastate damage, 262711 threat. Normalised threat is 1266, and removing (600 + 535) damage leaves 132 innate threat
2054AP - 535 melee damage, 491 devastate damage, 233891 threat. Normalised threat is 1128, and removing (535 + 491) damage leaves 102 innate threat
2466AP - 663 melee damage, 1244 devastate damage, 420920 threat. Normalised threat is 2030, and removing (663 + 1244) damage leaves 123 innate threat

Clearly, the innate threat is not a flat value. Looking at it this way, though:

2608AP - 132 innate threat is 5% of 2608
2054AP - 102 innate threat is 5% of 2054
2466AP - 123 innate threat is 5% of 2466

We conclude that the first Devastate you apply has innate threat equal to 5% of your AP.

Two Devastates:
2626AP - 1194 melee damage, 2480 devastate damage, 815714 threat. Normalised threat is 3934, and removing (1194 + 2480) damage leaves 260 innate threat
2048AP - 933 melee damage, 881 devastate damage, 418640 threat. Normalised threat is 2019, and removing (933 + 881) damage leaves 205 innate threat

We see that the innate threat values are 10% of the AP values. However, there are two Devastates in this test, and so each Devastate had 130/102 innate threat.

We conclude that the second Devastate you apply has innate threat equal to 5% of your AP.

Three Devastates:
2616AP - 1878 melee damage, 2969 devastate damage, 1086304 threat. Normalised threat is 5238, and removing (1878 + 2969) damage leaves 392 innate threat
2206AP - 1154 melee damage, 1757 devastate damage, 673434 threat. Normalised threat is 3248, and removing (1154 + 1757) damage leaves 337 innate threat

We see that the innate threat values are 15% of the AP values. However, there are three Devastates in this test, and so each Devastate had 130/112 innate threat.

We conclude that the third Devastate you apply has innate threat equal to 5% of your AP.

Four Devastates:
2616AP - 2021 melee damage, 3804 devastate damage, 1316047 threat. Normalised threat is 6347, and removing (2021 + 3804) damage leaves 522 innate threat
2206AP - 2385 melee damage, 2817 devastate damage, 1170474 threat. Normalised threat is 5645, and removing (2385 + 2817) damage leaves 440 innate threat

We see that the innate threat values are 20% of the AP values. However, there are four Devastates in this test, and so each Devastate had 130/110 innate threat.

We conclude that the fourth Devastate you apply has innate threat equal to 5% of your AP.

Five Devastates:
2616AP - 3459 melee damage, 4342 devastate damage, 1752933 threat. Normalised threat is 8453, and removing (3459 + 4342) damage leaves 652 innate threat
2490AP - 4189 melee damage, 2952 devastate damage, 1609242 threat. Normalised threat is 7761, and removing (4189 + 2952) damage leaves 620 innate threat

We see that the innate threat values are 25% of the AP values. However, there are five Devastates in this test, and so each Devastate had 130/124 innate threat.

We conclude that the fifth Devastate you apply has innate threat equal to 5% of your AP.

We conclude that all applications of Devastate get innate threat equal to 5% of AP.

▲ Page top

Quote Reply

#3 Nov 25 2008 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good

__DEL__1591896429935

Scholar

1,331 posts

Quote:

Spell Reflect
Defensive Stance: Reflected 836 damage spell, gained 173345 threat. 836 x 207.35 = 173345
Battle Stance: Reflected 793 damage spell, gained 63440 threat. 793 x 80 = 63440

We conclude that spell reflect generates threat equal to the damage reflected, and the the stance modifier is applied.

Standing with my back to a mob who is beating on me and triggering spell reflect gave a gain of zero threat.

Reflection of Spells Cast at Allies
Got my friend to load up the threat addon to monitor what's going on and get on his mage. Here's what we got:

1) I go in and social aggro the mob (level 68 Dragonflayer Death Weaver in Fjord)

2) He shoots it in the face with a fireball for initial 2978 damage + 4 ticks of 33 damage from the DoT

3) Mob casts shadow bolt at mage, which I reflect

4) I finish killing the mob to preserve the mage's threat.

On initial hit, mage gets 268020 threat. The ticks each add 2970 threat for the 33 damage. At the end of the DoT ticking, he had 344710 threat, where we expect him to have 279900 threat from just the pure damage. The difference is 64810 threat. The reflected spell dealt 648 damage, so there we have it. The third tick of the Fireball DoT was a bump of 67780 threat, rather than the expected 2970. The mage did indeed gain the threat from the reflected damage, just delayed a little bit.

We conclude that when you reflect a spell for an ally, your ally gains the threat for the damage that the reflected spell deals.

Sunder Armour
Sunder's threat changed again in build 8982. Full results are pending, but the innate threat appears to be 345 + 5% AP

Quote:

Sparan was good enough to find me a Glyph of Sunder Armor - thanks!

Devastate/Sunder with Glyph of Sunder Armor

Two tests: Attack with a Devastate and attack with a Sunder. I had 2266AP

Devastate
Confirmed that attacking with Devastate applies Sunder to target 2.

Target 1: 1642 melee damage, gained 363899 threat. Normalise to 1755 threat, and remove 1642 damage to leave 113 threat.
Target 2: Gained 95278 threat. Normalise to 459.5 threat

113 threat is 5% of AP. We're getting the normal Devastate threat on target 1.
459.5 threat is 345 + 5% of AP, which is the normal Sunder threat.

Sunder
Target 1: 475 melee damage, gained 193769 threat. Normalise to 934.5 threat, and remove 475 damage to leave 459.5 threat
Target 2: Gained 95278 threat. Normalise to 459.5 threat

459.5 threat is 345 + 5% of AP, which is the normal Sunder threat.

- If a Sunder is used on the first target, a normal Sunder is applied to both targets and the normal Sunder threat is generated on both targets.
- If a Devastate is used, the normal Devastate threat is generated on the first target, and normal Sunder threat is generated on the second target.

Vigilance

I cast vigilance on my mage friend, then went and aggro'd a mob and let it beat on me for a second. Mage was not spec'd frost, so his threat multiplier (for UI reported threat) is 100. Mage proceeded to beat down the mob with Frostbolts:

Frosbolt 1: 2113 total damage. 211300 total threat; my threat: 21130, mage threat: 191070
Frosbolt 2: 4196 total damage. 419600 total threat; my threat: 41960, mage threat: 377640
Frostbolt 3: 5726 total damage. 572600 total threat; my threat: 57260, mage threat: 515340

Vigilance is reducing its target's threat by 10%, and transferring that 10% to you. The transferred threat is not modified by your stance modifier.

Thunder Clap - Build 9014
428 damage generated 164180 threat. Normalise to 791.80 threat, and divide by damage to get 1.85.

Thunder Clap's innate threat multiplier has been increased to 1.85 (from 1.75)

A link was in here I missed it first posting.

Quote:

Due to popular demand, here's the addon I use: [link=Due to popular demand, here's the addon I use: http://evilempireguild.org/ui/Threat.zip]http://evilempireguild.org/ui/Threat.zip[/link]

Quote:

Caveat Emptor
You get what you paid for. I wrote this for my own use. It's not polished, it's very rough. I make no guarantees that it will do what you want or expect it to do, especially where spells are concerned. I certainly am not taking feature or change requests.

How it works
If you are walking up to a mob and blasting an ability, it's pretty straightforward. You'll see the something like:
Code:

Threat: 0xF130005D99006BEB Thunder Clap - 499

That's the mob's GUID, the ability you used, and the damage it did. At some point, you'll then see:
Code:

Threat: target - 181069

Which is your current threat against your target. If you have a focus target, it will also report threat you have against it.

Now, the threat display only updates when the event fires for it, so you do not always get a 1:1 mapping of ability with a threat update following immediately. Once you start doing combinations or are trying to do something like 5 sunders in a row you'll start to see see something like this:
Code:

Threat: 0xF13... Sunder Armor - nil 
Threat: 0xF13... Devastate - 1811 
Threat: 0xF13... Melee - 776 
Threat: target - 7136052 
Threat: target - 7699422

In this case, you're getting the update for the Devastate and then the melee hit in succession after both have landed. If an instant attack and a white damage swing land close enough together, you will only get one threat update for both:

Code:

Threat: 0xF13... Sunder Armor - nil 
Threat: 0xF13... Devastate - 1811 
Threat: 0xF13... Melee - 776 
Threat: target - 7699422

Once you get a bit of practice looking at it, you start to get pretty good at figuring out which threat update is for which ability, or at least juggling the numbers around because the threat gain of -300 using the number for two abilities makes a lot less sense than +132 for just one.
Reply With Quote

Edited, Nov 25th 2008 11:16am by devioususer

▲ Page top

Quote Reply

#4 Nov 25 2008 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good

__DEL__1591917454730

Sage

608 posts

Awesome stuff, thanks Devious ... how do we go about requesting a Sticky ?

▲ Page top

Quote Reply

#5 Nov 25 2008 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent

__DEL__1591896429935

Scholar

1,331 posts

I just see this from the quotes above on a single target optimum threat =

1 keep shield slam on CD.
2 keep revenge on CD.
3 devastate whenever possible between cooldowns and have the rage for it
4 heroic strike on excess rage

If you still have too much rage (which may happen) start throwing in shockwave for added threat and damage.

You'll want to keep tclap and demo shout on your main target as well. Thought I would add that part in.

So tanking looks like a no brain-er, and generally I haven't found it all that difficult. Especially if you have enough EH and Avoidance. And you get healed smartly.

▲ Page top