80 Tank Talent TreeFollow

Well I apologize if someone has talked about this, I searched previous posts and didnt see it. But Level 80 what kinda tree are we looking at.

This is what I will be going with at 80, currently 78 now. Waiting for Tuesday maintance to continue.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=050000000000000000000000000050053503015251533310301502300002000000000000000000


I know gotta get deep in the prot tree, really was unsure were to put 3 of the points so i put them in the Improved Hammer of Justice, I hate putting one point is something just to get to the next level, feels like a waste to me.

Any thoughts? different tree's?

More of just a couple of questions about your tree, for the most part I like what I see, just have a few suggestions, but haven't had a chance to really run any numbers to back them up so take what I say as just an opinion.

I would probably drop the 5 points in reckoning unless with the new expansion it's gotten changed; it seemed before the expansion that when you were tanking it didn't really proc that much. I'd put the 5 points into improved devotion aura and divine guardian just for the added bonuses. Just my thoughts tho, for the most part as I said it looks like a fairly strong build

i think you accidentally linked the OP's talent build Ehcks. My 80 build will most likely be this. Seals of the pure is better threat than conviction pt for pt, but adding crusade to conviction nearly doubles the threat/dps from those 8 talent pts, especially against humanoids/demons/undead/elementals(+6% damage).

I am a bit curious as to why people seem to be ignoring Guarded by the Light. At 2/2 it provides a 6% reduction in incoming magic damage and a 30% reduction in the mana cost of HS, HoR, and SoR. This seems pretty useful to me, especially for dungeons/heroics/raiding.

I am interested in Mahlerite's build going farther into the Ret tree for conviction and crusade, but if I were to pick up conviction and crusade, I definitely wouldn't go 5/5 kings since most Ret/Holy Pallys will have kings in their spec and the blessing of choice for Prot is definitely BoSanc. Those 5 points from kings would be better spent for SotP or in the Prot tree somewhere else. In a 5-man where you are the only Paladin, BoSanc yourself and give everyone else BoM or BoW. In a raid (or sometimes in a 5-man) there will be at least one Ret or Holy Paladin around to give everyone BoK.

I also don't really see PoJ being terribly useful for Prot spec unless you plan to PvP as a Prot. When I am doing PvE the speed increase really isn't necessary, and if I am mounted I am using Crusader Aura anyway, which does not stack with PoJ.

Edited, Nov 25th 2008 2:03pm by jeromesimina

Edited, Nov 25th 2008 2:08pm by jeromesimina

Yep, I did. :-\ Edited my post and reposting this one.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000050053503310251533312301502300502000000000000000000

I took Seals of the Pure -- it's going to stay at least until I can judge whether something else is more valuable in a raid or not.

Also, since Auras are raid-wide now, it's far better for a Ret Paladin who has all of the Ret Aura buffs to put it up. Healers love anything that helps with healing, so yes -- Devotion Aura is a pretty standard talent to take for us now. If you're anticipating only regular/heroic 5 mans on the other hand, you'll likely be using Ret yourself all of the time. All things considered, if I *HAD* to choose one or the other to have on, I'd probably choose Ret unless it's a big raid with lots of people taking lots of damage..

You're right in that threat isn't a big enough issue to decide to use Ret Aura based on. Mainly, it's because in any situation where I would be forced to choose one or the other I would be running with 4 other people and no other Paladin. None of the 5 man (including heroic) content comes CLOSE to justifying a healing bonus or a meagre (though it DOES exist) mitigation bonus. The 1/8 of a second that using Ret Aura cuts off of every fight will add up some day (or so I'll keep telling myself) -- if only in repair costs. These epics cost a TON to spiffy up. In the only situations where I would say that the healing bonus is a real plus, it's not an issue -- because there's a proper Ret there to put up the aura.

Stoicism is one of the flavor talents that I'm going to be switching around when I experiment in a little while. I don't know what I'll end up taking in the end. I chose it as the first one I'd run with because it looked like it would give me the most compared to the other options. Improved Hammer of Justice and Conviction are the only other talents that I'm REALLY considering replacing it with. I'm sure I'll experiment with others, but those are the only two talents that I havn't taken that I feel I really might POSSIBLY end up with.

Heart of the Crusader is another of the talents that I'm planning on playing with. This is one that I almost surely will change, since it's three wasted points when you run with a Ret.

I'm fairly confident that I won't end up with Kings in the final build. I used to say (prior to the new tree) that you should NEVER expect Holy or Ret Paladins to give you Kings. YOU are the Protection Paladin, it's your duty (and with a #$(* BoSanc like we used to have, it was easy to do). I totally disagree now. Kings feels more like it should be part of a fourth "leftovers" tree now, especially being Tier 1 and a 5 point talent.

Guess I will chuck mine in as well. I'm leveling prot at the moment because trying to do it holy is a pain. We also have more healers in the guild than tanks so I'm doing as many instances as I can to avoid questing.

This will be my spec once I hit 80:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=050020000000000000000000000053053500310251533312321512000000000000000000000000

The only small change I might make to this is reckoning, need to see what the numbers are like before deciding.

I've also noticed that I'm doing a crapload more threat than I used to do (not tanked since the 3.0 patch came out). With an AS pull, hammer and shield combo plus the usual HS and Conc (all of which would take about 6 or 7 secs) I have such a huge threat lead that none of the DPS even come close to pull aggro. Even when they are 3 levels above me.

Hence, I generally run with Dev aura since threat is a non issue.

Might look into this conviction thing as mentioned above.

I've debated that for JotJ as well..

The only real benefit I can see for it in a raid environment is when all of the tanks are occupied with different mobs in different areas and you cant rely on them to do it for you. There are other talents that can be taken that WILL make a difference on every single attack you make (or receive) -- the Jury's still out.

I'll be making my first talent shuffle tonight, I'll let you know what I find.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=050000000000000000000000000053053502310251533312321501020000000000000000000000

This is the build I'm rolling with this week. After some empirical testing by both me and other members of the maintankadin community, it is clear that Seals of the Pure in the Holy tree is noticibly more effective for threat generation than Conviction in the Ret tree. Both are generally minor increases (of LESS than 1% TPS generation per point invested) but hey, even from a non-threat perspective... damage is damage, right? Conviction only has a prayer to compete with Seals of the Pure when you factor in healing. If you need to throw a heal up, 5% crit can be valuable... but is it worth it for us? Probably not.

I did not take Unyielding Faith. After raiding, it is 100% clear to me that it is wasted points. There will ALWAYS be another class (Shammies anyone?) who can give us the same benefits all of the time. While it may be valuable in some 5 mans, that's not what I'm tailoring my build for. As a raid main tank, it's pointless.

I kept Stoicism. There's a lot of hot debate about this one. Many see it as a waste, Imp. HoJ being the alternative. I was actually somewhat glad that I took it. That may change when I decide on meta gems for a future helm, but for now -- I'm happy with Stoicism.

The upper Protection Tree remains the same. I took 2/3 Improved HoJ because I had the points. It was either that or Benediction -- mana isnt a huge issue. Not great for raid bosses, but it's nice on trash to throw up a couple of times every fight. I kept Judgements of the Just after seeing several cases first hand where I definitly wanted to have the slow effect up and I was the only one available to do it. Where I once thought, "well, yea -- but someone else can do this too.." I now realize that it is extremely important. It is also the cheapest option available to all of the classes to get a slow up. Where the others have to weigh their available resources before casting, all we need is a free GCD (which Judgement is on the 9/6/9 rotation anyway, so it happens constantly).

I've shuffled my Ret tree around a bit. 2/2 Improved Judgements was not needed because the extra second is just cut off in rotation anyway. It takes a full 9 seconds before you can get around to casting Judgement again anyway, so why bother having it on an 8 second cooldown? The only real benefit is when you break rotation, for example when a judgement debuff is resisted and you want it up ASAP. Still, 1 second longer without a judgement debuff up isn't exactly "ZOMG I GOTZ TO BLOW ALL MY LONG COOLDOWNZ TO SURVIVE THIZ!" of a situation. So I reduced this talent to 1/2.

I grabbed Improved Blessing of Might for a very specific reason. Kings is 5 points, Might is 2. Kings is a FUNDAMENTAL talent of a Ret build. It then follows that a Ret, who has Kings straight from their cookie cutter, would Kings the entire bloody raid. Leaving me to Might the Rets (and more importantly Sanctuary myself). Sounds good in theory. Works good in practice. Again, you might take it to tailor to a 5 man build but frankly after testing -- no, Kings isnt ALL THAT. One thing I dislike about the maintankadin community is that everyone is obsessed with Kings because of the influence of a few key figures. I've looked into it, and given the choice I'd rather have Sanctuary. I would ALWAYS 100% want my healers to have Wisdom before Kings, and physical damage dealers to have Might. Warlocks, Mages, Shadow Priests, and Crit Chickens. They're the classes that get Kings before anything else. And frankly, it isn't as big a deal of a buff for them as it is for us. If that says anything.

I cut Heart of the Crusader because, as I expected, there would always be a Ret putting it up. Just as long as you each know what the other is Judging, the slow effect and 3% crit will always be up. Ideally Prot judges Light for the threat boost and Ret Judges wisdom. Not hard to coordinate.

Next week I might shuffle some more. I *may* look for a way to fit Kings in, but I don't think much else will change.

I just caught some crap from a group member who wanted BoK

Am I wrong that a Paly tank doesn't need BoK.

My understanding is that BoK is either a Ret or Holy Paly's job to pick up. Tanks have 2 goals - Damage Mitigation and Threat Generation. Thus - BoK is not my problem.

Ret Palys are focused on 2 goals - DPS and Buffing

Holy Palys are focused on 2 goals - Healing and Buffing


Should I have BoK at 74? Or at 80? I chalk it up to "not my problem".

Here i make a few changes:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=050020000000000000000000001053053500310251533312321502000000000000000000000000


OK, i do think that 2 points in Unyielding Faith are better spend than 2 on Imp Bless of Migh. Why? of corse, on raids there will be a ret paly that can do the job of doing that. In the same reason you speak that there will be a shaman to take care of the fear blah blah... tanking is all about survival... so Unyielding Faith could save you *** on that critical moment were your support is down, charmed poly etc. That the diference between a wipe vs a win... those critical moments. Let someone else to worry about buffing.

Now, 2 points in Impro Jugment... as you say it... it may not fit on the rotation, but could make you have a diferent option. if you get dissarmed, you can still jugment but can't use HotR and so.

Now, since everyone want kings and noone can take, at least the last point i put it on Kings. Will be just a 2% stat for everyone, but i think it will be worthy that than nothing. Also the same thing up there, i would prefer a 2% king buff + a BoM VS an inmprove BoM only. I do believe this will help most the raid. Of corse, if there somone with the full 10% king and someone else with IBoM too... then with my build you lose 1 point... with yours you lose 2.

And 2 point in IHoJ = bad stuff, lot of raid stuff can't be stuned. Also for interrupts, there WILL be a lot of player aroud you worryed about that. Plus your 40 sec cooldown won't make it alone.


Peace ^^

Is not that we can't hold agro. All the built work perfect. I think the disccusion has come to the detail of: where i do spend my last 5 points for a better build.


If you want more judge more often, 2 on Improve Jugdment
If you want to have kings, 5 point on Kings
If you want to have 30% less fear and disoriented, 2 point in UF
IF you want to have less mana spend per cast, 5 point on Bene
If you want more stuns, 3 points in IHOJ
If you want to slow, 2 points in JotJ

Any combination of those you get you a desired thing. I think at this point, go with whatever you like more/need more.


Have fun.