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You are going to HAVE to respec to either Destro or Demo if you want to win that race, mate!
is affliction going to be at all effective in raiding this time around? i could swear i was hearing that affliction was top dps after 3.0.2, did that change again?
I would love if affliction could be comparative dps wise.
I would love if affliction could be comparative dps wise.
It will be very effective, just not on trash.
Edited, Nov 26th 2008 4:29pm by Lathais
Edited, Nov 26th 2008 4:29pm by Lathais
blizzard say that afliction and destro dps are meant to be about equal, with demo lacking behind due to increased survivability, but from what i've currently read and seen... afliction is last, with felguard/emberstorm spec and a heavy destro spec tieing for first place. shadowbolt has become a useless dps spell for all specs except afliction specs.
Which...frankly...is a crying shame.
Hey Jenovaomega,
so if I'm reading your post right (the super long one), 447 is the hit cap at 80 if I'm not talented with the hit, if the mob is not dotted with druid faerie fire/ spriest misery, and not alliance (meaning no draenei aura) right? Sorry if it seems like a really dumb question, but I've read your post all the way through and am having a hard time comprehending it. Probably too many words -_- lol
so if I'm reading your post right (the super long one), 447 is the hit cap at 80 if I'm not talented with the hit, if the mob is not dotted with druid faerie fire/ spriest misery, and not alliance (meaning no draenei aura) right? Sorry if it seems like a really dumb question, but I've read your post all the way through and am having a hard time comprehending it. Probably too many words -_- lol
yep, that's correct :)
Jenova wrote:
blizzard say that afliction and destro dps are meant to be about equal, with demo lacking behind due to increased survivability, but from what i've currently read and seen... afliction is last, with felguard/emberstorm spec and a heavy destro spec tieing for first place. shadowbolt has become a useless dps spell for all specs except afliction specs.
Numbers I have read say differently, for Demo spec at least. Deep Destro, yeah, SB is dead to you. Deep Affliction, you don't cast it much, so it doesn't matter much. Deep Demo, SB rules. Lemme see if I can dig up the numbers.
Quote:
But Incinerate or Shadowbolt when Molten Core is up? For me it will be Shadowbolt. Why?
Shadowbolt has a higher spell coefficient, but the same casting time due to Bane.
Max rank Shadowbolt: 690 damage. 85.71% spell coefficient.
Max rank Incinerate: 582 + 145.5 damage (if Immolate is up). 71.43%
Assume 1500 spell power.
Shadowbolt damage: 690 + 1500*0.8571 = 1975.65 damage
Incinerate damage: ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage.
This makes Incinerate a better choice with 1500 spell power.
Imagine Demonic Pact kicking in, so 1650 spell power.
Shadowbolt damage: 690 + 1650*0.8571 = 2104.215 damage
Incinerate damage: ((582 + 145.5) + 1650*0.7143)*1.1 = 2096.7045 damage.
This means that Shadowbolt will be superior over Incinerate with higher spellpower even if Molten Core is up.
Breakeven point:
690 + x*0.8571 = ((582+145.5)+x*0.7143)*1.1
x*0.8571 = 727.5*1.1 - 690 + x*0.7143*1.1
x*0.8571 = 800.25 - 690 + x*0.78573
x*0.07137 = 110.25
x = 1544.766709
So from 1545 Spell Power onwards Shadowbolt > Incinerate when MC is up. When MC is not up Shadowbolt will be superior.
Now... Molten Core vs ISB? When Spell Hit is maxed out, so Cataclysm is not needed, Shadowbolt clearly wins. It's damage is higher than Incinerate from 1545 Spell Power onwards during Molten Core.
With ISB up Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate from:
(690 + x*0.8571)*1.1 = (582+145.5)+x*0.7143
x*0.94281 = 727.5 - 759 + x*0.7143
x*0.94281= -31.5 + x*0.7143
x*0.22851 = -31.5
x = -137.8495471
From -136 Spell Power onwards Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate. This basically means that without Molten Core but with ISB Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate.
Imagine 1500 Spell Power
Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + 1500*0.8571)*1.1 = 2173.215 damage
Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage.
Shadowbolt vastly outdamages Incinerate at 1500 Spell Power with ISB even if Incinerate has Molten Core. And the damage difference will only get bigger with higher Spell Power.
Now imagine you sacrifice the 3% Spell Hit from Cataclysm to get ISB.
This means Incinerate will do it's full 100% damage while Immolate will do 97% damage.
Imagine 1500 Spell Power
Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + 1500*0.8571)*1.1*0.97 = 2108.01855 damage
Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage.
Now the formula:
Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + (spell power)*0.8571)*1.1*(chance to hit, capped at 1) = damage
Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + (spell power)*0.7143)*1.1*(chance to hit + 0.03, capped at 1) = damage.
Spell Power: A
(690 + A*0.8571)*1.1*x = ((582+145.5)+A*0.7143)*1.1*(x+0.03)
x*(759 + A*0.94281) = (x+0.03)*(800.25 + A*0.78573)
x/(x+0.03) = (800.25 + A*0.78573)/(759 + A*0.94281)
Now we calculate at 17% chance to miss (the maximum) wether ISB or MC is better.
0.83/0.86 = (800.25 + A*0.78573)/(759 + A*0.94281)
Now the Spell Power where the damage is the same:
0.83/0.86 = (800.25 + x*0.78573)/(759 + x*0.94281)
0.96512*(759 + x*0.94281) = (800.25 + x*0.78573)
732.52608 + x*0.90992 = 800.25 + x*0.78573
x*0.90992 - x*0.78573 = 800.25 - 732.52608
x*0.12419 = 67.72392
x = 545.325
With greater Spell Hit the fraction x/(x+0.03) will become ever bigger. So x*(number) will always become bigger, and thus x itself will become ever smaller.
This means that with the bare minimum Spell Hit (0) ISB build > MC/Cataclysm build from 546 Spell Power onwards. And with greater Spell Hit this number will become lower.
And it is certain that every level 80 Demo Warlock has a Spell Power greater than that (Demonic Knowledge). So ISB/Shadowburn is better than MC/Cataclysm for a raiding Meta Warlock.
Shadowbolt has a higher spell coefficient, but the same casting time due to Bane.
Max rank Shadowbolt: 690 damage. 85.71% spell coefficient.
Max rank Incinerate: 582 + 145.5 damage (if Immolate is up). 71.43%
Assume 1500 spell power.
Shadowbolt damage: 690 + 1500*0.8571 = 1975.65 damage
Incinerate damage: ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage.
This makes Incinerate a better choice with 1500 spell power.
Imagine Demonic Pact kicking in, so 1650 spell power.
Shadowbolt damage: 690 + 1650*0.8571 = 2104.215 damage
Incinerate damage: ((582 + 145.5) + 1650*0.7143)*1.1 = 2096.7045 damage.
This means that Shadowbolt will be superior over Incinerate with higher spellpower even if Molten Core is up.
Breakeven point:
690 + x*0.8571 = ((582+145.5)+x*0.7143)*1.1
x*0.8571 = 727.5*1.1 - 690 + x*0.7143*1.1
x*0.8571 = 800.25 - 690 + x*0.78573
x*0.07137 = 110.25
x = 1544.766709
So from 1545 Spell Power onwards Shadowbolt > Incinerate when MC is up. When MC is not up Shadowbolt will be superior.
Now... Molten Core vs ISB? When Spell Hit is maxed out, so Cataclysm is not needed, Shadowbolt clearly wins. It's damage is higher than Incinerate from 1545 Spell Power onwards during Molten Core.
With ISB up Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate from:
(690 + x*0.8571)*1.1 = (582+145.5)+x*0.7143
x*0.94281 = 727.5 - 759 + x*0.7143
x*0.94281= -31.5 + x*0.7143
x*0.22851 = -31.5
x = -137.8495471
From -136 Spell Power onwards Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate. This basically means that without Molten Core but with ISB Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate.
Imagine 1500 Spell Power
Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + 1500*0.8571)*1.1 = 2173.215 damage
Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage.
Shadowbolt vastly outdamages Incinerate at 1500 Spell Power with ISB even if Incinerate has Molten Core. And the damage difference will only get bigger with higher Spell Power.
Now imagine you sacrifice the 3% Spell Hit from Cataclysm to get ISB.
This means Incinerate will do it's full 100% damage while Immolate will do 97% damage.
Imagine 1500 Spell Power
Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + 1500*0.8571)*1.1*0.97 = 2108.01855 damage
Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage.
Now the formula:
Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + (spell power)*0.8571)*1.1*(chance to hit, capped at 1) = damage
Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + (spell power)*0.7143)*1.1*(chance to hit + 0.03, capped at 1) = damage.
Spell Power: A
(690 + A*0.8571)*1.1*x = ((582+145.5)+A*0.7143)*1.1*(x+0.03)
x*(759 + A*0.94281) = (x+0.03)*(800.25 + A*0.78573)
x/(x+0.03) = (800.25 + A*0.78573)/(759 + A*0.94281)
Now we calculate at 17% chance to miss (the maximum) wether ISB or MC is better.
0.83/0.86 = (800.25 + A*0.78573)/(759 + A*0.94281)
Now the Spell Power where the damage is the same:
0.83/0.86 = (800.25 + x*0.78573)/(759 + x*0.94281)
0.96512*(759 + x*0.94281) = (800.25 + x*0.78573)
732.52608 + x*0.90992 = 800.25 + x*0.78573
x*0.90992 - x*0.78573 = 800.25 - 732.52608
x*0.12419 = 67.72392
x = 545.325
With greater Spell Hit the fraction x/(x+0.03) will become ever bigger. So x*(number) will always become bigger, and thus x itself will become ever smaller.
This means that with the bare minimum Spell Hit (0) ISB build > MC/Cataclysm build from 546 Spell Power onwards. And with greater Spell Hit this number will become lower.
And it is certain that every level 80 Demo Warlock has a Spell Power greater than that (Demonic Knowledge). So ISB/Shadowburn is better than MC/Cataclysm for a raiding Meta Warlock.
I'm way too lazy to check the numbers though, and prefer SB anyway. So I'm sticking with it.
***** the numbers.
I have noticed that when critting, SB outdoes Incin.
Where I am now MAYBE Incin does more Normal damage - but overtime it won't.
Admittedly, I haven't tried this in HCs yet.
But it does seem - by seem I mean feel - that SB still does more damage. And it doesn't preclude you using CoA, Corr, Immo, CB...so IF it feels like it's more powerful than Incin I too will be sticking with SB.
Besides, I'll purely be looking at my DPS and how successful a raid is. We win, I win. We lose, I do more work.
I have noticed that when critting, SB outdoes Incin.
Where I am now MAYBE Incin does more Normal damage - but overtime it won't.
Admittedly, I haven't tried this in HCs yet.
But it does seem - by seem I mean feel - that SB still does more damage. And it doesn't preclude you using CoA, Corr, Immo, CB...so IF it feels like it's more powerful than Incin I too will be sticking with SB.
Besides, I'll purely be looking at my DPS and how successful a raid is. We win, I win. We lose, I do more work.
yes SB crits highier, that's obvious. but you can cast more incinerates and at a lower mana cost. hence the reason behind the 0/41/30 spec (felguard/emberstorm), where you put up corruption and immolate, spam incinerate and use SB whenever you get a shadowtrance proc.
Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 2:37am by Jenovaomega
Edited, Dec 3rd 2008 2:37am by Jenovaomega
Yeah, with Emberstorm, I could see Incinerate outdoing SB. However, with that spec you miss out on Demonic Pact though, which is the main reason I personally want Demo. Something interesting to look at though, and one more spec to try out and throw in my guide.
demonic pact isn't as good as what shamans can provide, so you get over-written by them, making the talent pointless in a raid scenario.
No, Demonic pact is better. A lot better. Shaman Totem provides what 148 I think? My self buffed spell damage is 1928 currently, since Demo Talents increase it a lot. 10% is 192, almost 50 more than what Shaman provide, and that's not even party buffed, much less raid buffed. This is with a couple heroic drops, a few normal drops, and mostly quest stuff. Overwrites the Shaman one.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 1:53pm by Lathais
Ok, just saw the totem Ele Specs get, with 280 SP and some Crit. I can't beat that, yet. However, my guild has no Ele Shaman. We have one 80 Shaman that is Resto. Plus, they don't always have it out, sometimes they drop Fire Elementals. I know, weak argument, once ever 20 minutes.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 2:17pm by Lathais
Also, not too sure, but there will probably be some bosses that require frost resistance totem. So my buff helps there.
All in all, pretty situational depending on raid make-up, and for those that do not run with elemental shamans, it is a good choice.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 2:19pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 1:53pm by Lathais
Ok, just saw the totem Ele Specs get, with 280 SP and some Crit. I can't beat that, yet. However, my guild has no Ele Shaman. We have one 80 Shaman that is Resto. Plus, they don't always have it out, sometimes they drop Fire Elementals. I know, weak argument, once ever 20 minutes.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 2:17pm by Lathais
Also, not too sure, but there will probably be some bosses that require frost resistance totem. So my buff helps there.
All in all, pretty situational depending on raid make-up, and for those that do not run with elemental shamans, it is a good choice.
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 2:19pm by Lathais
"Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases spell power by 280 for all party and raid members, and increases the critical strike chance of all attacks by 3% against all enemies within 40 yards. Lasts 5 min."
280> whatever you can provide right up until the the most extreme gear levels.
yes the flametongue totem is 144, so in the case of no elemental shaman you would be right that a demo lock is better, but come on... who doesn't want an elemental shaman :P
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 3:37pm by Jenovaomega
280> whatever you can provide right up until the the most extreme gear levels.
yes the flametongue totem is 144, so in the case of no elemental shaman you would be right that a demo lock is better, but come on... who doesn't want an elemental shaman :P
Edited, Dec 2nd 2008 3:37pm by Jenovaomega
Jenovaomega wrote:
No immolate there ?
Quote:
hence the reason behind the 0/41/30 spec (felguard/emberstorm), where you put up corruption, spam incinerate and use SB whenever you get a shadowtrance proc.
No immolate there ?
obviously immolate, just forgot to say it. thanks *fixed*
15 posts
Jen & all others,
A question based on your 5/13/53 spec:
Would it be any way viable to substitute doom instead of agony on bosses - Take the 5 points from affliction and put them into fire and brimstone instead, for increased immolate and conflag damage. you could then glyph conflagrate instead of COA and save on mana & lifetapping?
Im in no way a theorycrafter, but just wanted opinions on whether this could work or if its a waste
Edited, Dec 6th 2008 4:07am by rayfitz
A question based on your 5/13/53 spec:
Would it be any way viable to substitute doom instead of agony on bosses - Take the 5 points from affliction and put them into fire and brimstone instead, for increased immolate and conflag damage. you could then glyph conflagrate instead of COA and save on mana & lifetapping?
Im in no way a theorycrafter, but just wanted opinions on whether this could work or if its a waste
Edited, Dec 6th 2008 4:07am by rayfitz
and then you loose the molton core procs + have to use corruption in your rotation, a dot that is less mana efficient than CoA and ticks every 3 seconds instead of 2, so less molton core procs. fire and brimstone also simply isn't worth it, been proven plenty of times by others. also if you take the 3 points from suppression, your hit cap goes up.
also on a side note about this spec, it requires a selfbuffed crit rate of about 20% (before devestation) to be more viable than afliction or the 0/41/30, so currently i'm raiding as 56/0/15 until i get my crit rate up enough
also on a side note about this spec, it requires a selfbuffed crit rate of about 20% (before devestation) to be more viable than afliction or the 0/41/30, so currently i'm raiding as 56/0/15 until i get my crit rate up enough
I been Demonology since I made my warlock, and am past 70 right now.
Affliction and Destruction seems to always beat my DPS in shorter fights, because I depend on all of my DOT in order to reach maximum DPS, due to the lack of coefficients they get. Long fights, like bosses and chain pulls, seems to be where Demonology will shine, because I am harder to kill than the latter two.
Shadow Bolt and Incinerate do almost exactly the same damage, as long as I have an imp while using Incinerate. I have a macro that automatically rotates my main nuke, based on the minion that's summoned (Incinerate with imp, or Shadow Bolt with everything else; and Searing Pain with no minion).
Okay, about Health Funnel: I would not bother wasting DPS funneling health to an imp, or anything other than a felguard and voidwalker, because the other minions do not hold agro and are not made more taking a beating.
Demonic Synergy should replace the need for Health Funnel, if you are using an imp or other squishy minion.
To the original poster: if you were raiding before the new expansion, then your current hit gear should be perfectly fine until you reach 80. I do instances about 5 levels higher, and do not notice a significant difference in DPS between that and my own level. So, as suggested, I would concentrate on spell power until you reach 80.
Get Suppression and Cataclysm, if you can.
Affliction and Destruction seems to always beat my DPS in shorter fights, because I depend on all of my DOT in order to reach maximum DPS, due to the lack of coefficients they get. Long fights, like bosses and chain pulls, seems to be where Demonology will shine, because I am harder to kill than the latter two.
Shadow Bolt and Incinerate do almost exactly the same damage, as long as I have an imp while using Incinerate. I have a macro that automatically rotates my main nuke, based on the minion that's summoned (Incinerate with imp, or Shadow Bolt with everything else; and Searing Pain with no minion).
Okay, about Health Funnel: I would not bother wasting DPS funneling health to an imp, or anything other than a felguard and voidwalker, because the other minions do not hold agro and are not made more taking a beating.
Demonic Synergy should replace the need for Health Funnel, if you are using an imp or other squishy minion.
To the original poster: if you were raiding before the new expansion, then your current hit gear should be perfectly fine until you reach 80. I do instances about 5 levels higher, and do not notice a significant difference in DPS between that and my own level. So, as suggested, I would concentrate on spell power until you reach 80.
Get Suppression and Cataclysm, if you can.
sedrix, your opinion is invalid, you opened with saying "i loose to AFLICTION and destro due to how much i reply on my dots..." LOL afliction rely on them even more. also, if your imp makes up say... 10% of your total damage, spending 2-3 seconds channeling health funnel to keep it alive is much better than having no pet at all. also come back and comment when you hit 80 and have raided for 3 years.
Just finished Naxx Spider Wing as Felguard/Emberstorm. I won on overall DPS, Trash and Bosses. By quite a fair margin too.
You should NOT base you spell on your pet, but what you a specced ofr. With Emberstorm, SB and Incin do the same amount of Damage, but incin has a shorter cast time. With Meta/Ruin, SB does more damage with the same cast times. Woth either build you should have Felguard out anyway as he provides the most damage.
If your getting beat on trash as Demo, your casting too much. Immo and Incin or Corr and SB ONLY on trash, depending on spec.
For slightly longer lasting trash throw on the other DoT. Do not use CoA unless it is really tough, as it will still not get to it's most powerful ticks.
I'll post my WWS reports tomorrow.
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 11:39pm by Lathais
You should NOT base you spell on your pet, but what you a specced ofr. With Emberstorm, SB and Incin do the same amount of Damage, but incin has a shorter cast time. With Meta/Ruin, SB does more damage with the same cast times. Woth either build you should have Felguard out anyway as he provides the most damage.
If your getting beat on trash as Demo, your casting too much. Immo and Incin or Corr and SB ONLY on trash, depending on spec.
For slightly longer lasting trash throw on the other DoT. Do not use CoA unless it is really tough, as it will still not get to it's most powerful ticks.
I'll post my WWS reports tomorrow.
Edited, Dec 7th 2008 11:39pm by Lathais
i'm afliction 56/0/15, once i gain about 8% crit from gear i'll spec destro and use that. we've been aoeing all of nax, both on 10man(1night clear) and 25man(2night clear). been a piece of **** to clear. in terms of damage, on 10man my max boss dps was 3.8k on patchwork, we'll be killing him today on 25man so i'll say what i'm achieving then... but currently on all the other bosses i've been doing minimum 3.2k, max 3.8k dps.. so for patchwork i forsee 4k+. I'm also top dps on almost all the bosses, with a well geared rogue and DK being my main contenders (our actual recorded dps is pretty much equal, so from the looks of things i'm winning due to a highier % of time spent dpsing)
for trash, as i'm afliction, for the weaker aoe trash groups I've been just spamming SoC from the outset, by the time i pull hate the mobs are close to dead anyways. for the harder mobs (which according to blizzard shouldn't even be aoeable... LOL) I open with CoA on each mob, then UA then tab SoC till 2-3 are left and just fully dot those up and finish them normally.
i'll check if anyone took a WWS report from last nights raid.
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 5:24am by Jenovaomega
for trash, as i'm afliction, for the weaker aoe trash groups I've been just spamming SoC from the outset, by the time i pull hate the mobs are close to dead anyways. for the harder mobs (which according to blizzard shouldn't even be aoeable... LOL) I open with CoA on each mob, then UA then tab SoC till 2-3 are left and just fully dot those up and finish them normally.
i'll check if anyone took a WWS report from last nights raid.
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 5:24am by Jenovaomega
Quote:
sedrix, your opinion is invalid, you opened with saying "i loose to AFLICTION and destro due to how much i reply on my dots..." LOL afliction rely on them even more. also, if your imp makes up say... 10% of your total damage, spending 2-3 seconds channeling health funnel to keep it alive is much better than having no pet at all..
First of all, you just said it's worth losing 90% of your DPS to keep an imp alive. If you're Demonology, your minion should not be dying in the first place, especially if you are deep enough to get Demonic Synergy, which I said should replace Health Funnel in most cases (it has for me). You seemed to missed that last part in your comment. My objection was to the constant need to keep it alive, not keeping it alive at all. There's only specific moments when HF is needed during a fight, and short fights are not one of them, as it was short fights I mentioned failing to Affliction/Destruction, which you seemed to generalize.
Second, Demonology does not get the spell coefficients that Destruction or Affliction has, so based on that, a good cast rotation is important. If you do not think so, then please explain the math to me, with and without a felguard, because I can test rotations to see if that works. I notice that Curse of Agony does not cause a significant increase in DPS compared to Curse of Elements, so when I say DOT, I really mean two of them, mainly.
Third, when you disagree with someone, it's best to come up with an explanation, because the attitude does nothing for your "argument". Please, explain your points if you have them.
Quote:
If your getting beat on trash as Demo, your casting too much. Immo and Incin or Corr and SB ONLY on trash, depending on spec.
I stack Corruption and Immolate, before the main nuke. And, I prefer Curse of Elements instead of Agony. Should I just not bother with curses at all, if the fight it short?
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 9:03am by sederix
Stacking Corruption and Immolate is too much, and a curse on top of it is way too much. I already answered the question you asked, but let me break it down even further.
Ok, first of all, Felguard is almost a must for Demo raid DPS. He provides the most damage of any of the pets, and increases your damage and a little survivability on the AoEs. Deep Demo without the Felguard is almost pointless. Maybe, if your healers don't heal your pet(mine do in raids and 5-mans) or if you totally suck and pet managemnt, you could alter the spec some and Imp might be more useful.
Ok, I'll break down the specs yet again, though it has been done in other posts and further up in this post, apparently that's too difficult for you, so here we go.
Meta/Ruin
Main nuke of this build is SB. So, with Glyph of Corruption you can get a few instants. On trash, that dies quickly, and DoTs will not last cast ONLY Corr for the Glyph procs and spam SB away. If multiple mobs are being tanked, or anything not being CC'd, you can throw Corr ONLY on them also. Pretty simple, adding in Immo will lower DPS as it will not last it's full duration and a SB will get you more damage out of your time spent casting
Felguard/Emberstorm
Incinerate is your main nuke here. With Emberstorm, it's damage is about equal to SB, but it's cast time is lower. So you get more out of your cast time with Incin and should never cast SB, unless it's a boss and you have Corr up and you get Glyph Procs. The only reason it's better here is the cast time is instant, and therefore less than Incin. On trash, Immo for increased Incin Damage and Incin away. Corr will not last the full duration, so you lose DPS per cast time casting it. Some tougher trash it may be ok, but for the easy stuff, it is just not worth it.
Why CoEl does not add DPS on short fights:
CoEl takes a GCD away. This is one less Incin/SB you get. It adds 10% damage. My normal hits on either are around 3k, 3.3k with CoEl up. On a trash mob, I'll get 3-4 w/o casting a curse, and 2-3 with casting a curse.
3 casts w/o CoEl would do 9k damage, 2 with would be 6.6k damage
4 w/o CoEl 12k, 3 with 9.9k
5 w/o CoEl 15k, 4 with 13.2k
6 w/o CoEl 18k, 5 with 16.5k
7 w/o CoEl 21k, 6 with 19.8k
8 w/o CoEl 24k, 7 with 23.1k
9 w/o CoEl 27k, 8 with 26.4k
10 w/o CoEl 30k, 9 with 29.7k
11 w/o CoEl 33k, 10 with 33k
So if you can fit 10 Incinerates while casting CoEl, it finally becomes equal to not casting it. I don't know much trash that has over 330k HP, and that's not including other people DPSing on it. This is also only relevant if you do not have a Druid or Death Knight, as they have a debuff that will overwrite CoEl.
In other words, curses are a waste on trash.
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 12:47pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 1:43pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 1:56pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 2:00pm by Lathais
Ok, first of all, Felguard is almost a must for Demo raid DPS. He provides the most damage of any of the pets, and increases your damage and a little survivability on the AoEs. Deep Demo without the Felguard is almost pointless. Maybe, if your healers don't heal your pet(mine do in raids and 5-mans) or if you totally suck and pet managemnt, you could alter the spec some and Imp might be more useful.
Ok, I'll break down the specs yet again, though it has been done in other posts and further up in this post, apparently that's too difficult for you, so here we go.
Meta/Ruin
Main nuke of this build is SB. So, with Glyph of Corruption you can get a few instants. On trash, that dies quickly, and DoTs will not last cast ONLY Corr for the Glyph procs and spam SB away. If multiple mobs are being tanked, or anything not being CC'd, you can throw Corr ONLY on them also. Pretty simple, adding in Immo will lower DPS as it will not last it's full duration and a SB will get you more damage out of your time spent casting
Felguard/Emberstorm
Incinerate is your main nuke here. With Emberstorm, it's damage is about equal to SB, but it's cast time is lower. So you get more out of your cast time with Incin and should never cast SB, unless it's a boss and you have Corr up and you get Glyph Procs. The only reason it's better here is the cast time is instant, and therefore less than Incin. On trash, Immo for increased Incin Damage and Incin away. Corr will not last the full duration, so you lose DPS per cast time casting it. Some tougher trash it may be ok, but for the easy stuff, it is just not worth it.
Why CoEl does not add DPS on short fights:
CoEl takes a GCD away. This is one less Incin/SB you get. It adds 10% damage. My normal hits on either are around 3k, 3.3k with CoEl up. On a trash mob, I'll get 3-4 w/o casting a curse, and 2-3 with casting a curse.
3 casts w/o CoEl would do 9k damage, 2 with would be 6.6k damage
4 w/o CoEl 12k, 3 with 9.9k
5 w/o CoEl 15k, 4 with 13.2k
6 w/o CoEl 18k, 5 with 16.5k
7 w/o CoEl 21k, 6 with 19.8k
8 w/o CoEl 24k, 7 with 23.1k
9 w/o CoEl 27k, 8 with 26.4k
10 w/o CoEl 30k, 9 with 29.7k
11 w/o CoEl 33k, 10 with 33k
So if you can fit 10 Incinerates while casting CoEl, it finally becomes equal to not casting it. I don't know much trash that has over 330k HP, and that's not including other people DPSing on it. This is also only relevant if you do not have a Druid or Death Knight, as they have a debuff that will overwrite CoEl.
In other words, curses are a waste on trash.
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 12:47pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 1:43pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 1:56pm by Lathais
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 2:00pm by Lathais
firstly, CoE is sh*t to use. both deathknights and moonkins can provide a better buff, so CoA is a better choice. for trash, corruption on each mob, SB otherwise is enough.
in terms of 'pet dieing' a demo felguard lock's pet is more likely to die than a destro lock's imp. it's not a case of 'constantly' trying to keep it alive, it's a 'only if a boss directly targets the pet with a direct damage attack will i need to worry', and thinking of it as 'i'm loosing 90% of my damage to keep it alive' is wrong, it's more, 'i'm spending 1-2 seconds to keep 10% of my damage going' and it really is every once in awhile 'cos the imp is a ranged pet, so it's not in range with most of the mob damage that would hit it. think of it another way... the boss fight is 6 minutes long, your pet does 10% of your damage at like... 400dps, you push out 2kdps yourself. if your pet dies anytime before... roughly 30seconds before the end of the encounter, you'll LOOSE total damage if you chose NOT to spend 2-3 seconds healing your pet / decreasing the damage it takes will be a total dps INCREASE.
the felguard isn't a 'must', going that far into demo means loosing out on ALOT of powerful abilities in the other trees, which more than equal the bonus of the felguard, with the bonus of those abilities not being able to die :P
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 1:30pm by Jenovaomega
in terms of 'pet dieing' a demo felguard lock's pet is more likely to die than a destro lock's imp. it's not a case of 'constantly' trying to keep it alive, it's a 'only if a boss directly targets the pet with a direct damage attack will i need to worry', and thinking of it as 'i'm loosing 90% of my damage to keep it alive' is wrong, it's more, 'i'm spending 1-2 seconds to keep 10% of my damage going' and it really is every once in awhile 'cos the imp is a ranged pet, so it's not in range with most of the mob damage that would hit it. think of it another way... the boss fight is 6 minutes long, your pet does 10% of your damage at like... 400dps, you push out 2kdps yourself. if your pet dies anytime before... roughly 30seconds before the end of the encounter, you'll LOOSE total damage if you chose NOT to spend 2-3 seconds healing your pet / decreasing the damage it takes will be a total dps INCREASE.
the felguard isn't a 'must', going that far into demo means loosing out on ALOT of powerful abilities in the other trees, which more than equal the bonus of the felguard, with the bonus of those abilities not being able to die :P
Edited, Dec 8th 2008 1:30pm by Jenovaomega
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