Merits of combat PvPFollow

Ah, but this is Zafire's definition of skill. I wasn't implying that this was a direct correlation to skill.


I had 2100 AP/38% crit. With an Evis glyph, that's 48% plus another 5% from LotP. Sorry, 53% isn't exactly 55%.

Oy vey. You guys are going to make me change my main back to paladin again.

HOLY HELL IN A HANDBASKET

i roll my priest as a main for a while, and DK as my new, unexpected, main, and WHAT THE @#%^ HAPPENED HERE

im just glad in the DK forums, we dont got Richards like this

hell, tjheo posts there, and he just acts like everyone else taking that class seriously, reading ej theorycraft and doing other research :D (everyone being on the same footing about the class, its real nice over there :D priest forums too)

zafire, your just ridiculous.. if you really want to just get a rise outta theo for your own lulz... use PMs

i try to still contribute and help out here, even though i stopped taking rogue seriously when everyone left the HARP bandwagon and joined me on the SS pain train back in s3... but people like that make me not even care to help out the forums that helped me so much way back in the day

(go check my first few posts, and youll see what i mean... @#%^in i cant believe i argued the MH ZG sword better then ravenholdt slicer o.o)

theo isnt the god of rogues, but if you have to ask a forum if your idea is sound, or feel like posting it just so people know... hes the first person id expect to tell you like it is

TL:DR?

dont be zafire, straight out

and stop derailing posts here, you got o-boards... use them

i always tell people to check alla forums if they need help, dont ruin this sites reputation 'for the lulz'

Edited, Nov 26th 2008 11:51pm by mongoosexcore

I'm a long time lurker on alla, following the Rogue, Mage, Warrior, Paladin and Death Knight forums ... and I have to say, the rogue forums have always been like this. I'm unsure about the priest forums from personal experience, but you're not the first person I've heard mention that they are quite a pleasant place to be. Heck, even the hunter forums, which I've checked in on, on one or 2 occasions, has a much more pleasant tone.

So, is it the nature of the class that attracts the more aggressive, ******* nasty players ... or is it something else. I'm tempted to say (and I'm sure most would understand the temptation) that Theo is at the base of it, but in all honesty, this kind of stuff goes on without Theo's involvement sometimes, so ultimately, it's probably the nature of the players who play rogues (the sneaky, backstabbing bastards that they are).

To be honest, however, the biggest e-peen slinging contests generally involve Theo, and that's part of the issue here.

Yes, Theo, you do a lot of research, and have written some threads which have been stickied, but your attitude is that without your contributions, this board would lack substance. You can't deny it either, your last post specifically indicated as such. As as interesting side-note, you also defer to posters like Nooble and Therion, both of whom grab my attention and respect considerably quicker than any post you've made, which clearly indicates that if you didn't contribute, the board would not collapse. Seriously, I've reach a stage now, where I don't even read your responses anymore, however detailed or concise they appear to be, because they all contain the same message ... "I'm right, everyone else here is wrong"

The fact is, all Theo contributes is regurgitated research, something that a large majority of the regular posters on this board do for themselves anyway. Evidence of this is the standard answers provided by Theo 85% of the time

1) "Use a Spreadsheet ******" (not even a SS that was developed by Theo - someone else's)
2) "Read the F*cking Sticky" (while presented by Theo, is simply a colation of information found in old stickies on this site, and info easily found on other sites) ...and my personal favourite
3) "Because I said so, I've done the math, and I'm right" ... How many times have I seen this response, with absolutely nothing to actually substantiate it.

Now, Theo, I'm not saying you don't know your stuff. I'm also not saying you don't help out here ... but please, try refraining from portraying yourself as the world's best rogue (yes, you do). Also try practicing a bit of humility once in a while, your are wrong sometimes and your opinions are just that, opinions. Some people, when pointing out deficiencies in your arguments, are met with insults, counter arguments (not necessarily relevant or correct), or flat out being ignored. Other people when presenting an opinion that differs from your are met with the same barrage.

Now please, before you start asking me for examples to back up my statements, I'm not going to do that - there's no need, everyone who reads this forum can only, in all honesty, agree with me.

A final note, not everyone raids. Not everyone that DOES raid, does so with a single goal in mind - to be top of the damage charts (not everyone can top the charts - it's impossible). Not everyone who PvP's likes arena, and not everyone who does arena strives to be 2100+. Some people like leveling for enjoyment, not to be as efficient as possible, and get to the end game asap (ie, some people like leveling as full sub - they find it fun).

So if somebody asks for an opinion on an issue not covered in the precious sticky (it won't be covered if it isn't in the interests of the author of the sticky), then telling that person that he's a ****** for thinking that way, and to do what the sticky says, will definitely not earn you any kind of respect, neither for you as a person, nor for what you are supposed to have accomplished. You Earn respect my Friend, you don't demand it.

Good for you son, but despite what you claim to have done, you still present neither a persona, nor a helping hand to any and all who come here seeking advice. And yet you demand to be respected for that.

I am yet to see a build from you that is either cutting edge or considerably different to builds presented on other forums. The fact that you seem to think in the same vein, and do the same calculations as most other people does not make you what you think you are. You re-hash existing material and present it here ... not that it's not appreciated, but it certainly doesn't mean that you're as ground-breaking as you would like people to think.

As for doing math, for you to simply say "I've worked it out, and I'm right, and you must believe me", just doesn't cut it. If you've worked it out - show us ... dazzle us, prove that what you say is not just hot air, but actually has substance.

As far as this thread goes - the reason that you and Zafire have clashed (as in soooo many other threads, where you actually land up by arguing the same issue over and over again), is that you and he are very much alike - you both think you're brilliant, and that anybody else findings / experience / opinions are nonsense. You'll never agree, even if one of you lands up by being proved comprehensively wrong. And if you want to deny that you're the same, to actually present the "I'm better looking that you" argument, only to be responded to in kind, is more evidence than anyone could ever need ... seriously, what the hell were you thinking?

Look, it's not Theo's fault that the majority of good rogue players are ***holes. Theo doesn't control the rogue forums. He's probably not even super good, he's just better than most. He admits that pretty frequently. So do most of the posters here.

People kind of elevate this whole edrama crap to some level of supreme importance when it's really like a sideshow for the longer posters to vent some steam. The rogue forums aren't about how Zafire hates Theo. That's just like, icing. It's what makes the forums entertaining and keeps people coming back to read the sub-defaulted posts. The people here aren't ***holes because they want to be like Theo, or because they harbour some secret grudge against humanity. They're ***holes because it is incredibly funny.

Edited, Nov 27th 2008 10:25am by zepoodle

Sure, you can't control the actions of others, nor be accountable for them, especially on an internet forum. But you can control your own, and right now, there are those on this forum who are acting like asshats, for absolutely no reason. Zafire's probably the worst at this stage, plainly and simply because he even admits to it (by blatantly trolling for a reaction). But Theo's not being any better by responding in kind (and the demanding of respect and the claim of better looks are just laughable). Now he may be perfectly happy with being like that, and has no intention of changing, but then he must understand that he won't be garnering any respect for doing so, regardless of what he says / does.

Still, Zepoodle, I agree with you ... this seems to be the general tone of the rogue forums ... so I guess it makes sense that the "biggest contributor" to the forums in terms of content, should be the biggest contributor to the forums in terms of the tone.

I act like an asshat because I like acting like an asshat.

The reason you're getting rated down (and not by me, I should mention) is that you're annoying; at least sometimes when I post I'm funny or I add something to the forum.

You're just coming in with a holier-than-thou disposition and claiming that we're a bunch of asshats and that someone who has provided a lot of advice and data for the forum is somehow pulling it out of his *** (while still being right).

Mozared, most of the time I don't show math because if people really look at it and know game mechanics, the choice that we're talking about should be obvious. Another is because they can see numerically that something is better than another pertaining to DPS via a spreadsheet. I know that Vulajin works hard on it, and as he's one of the top DPSers in one of the best raiding guilds in the US, I think you can trust that his spreadsheet is 99.9% right.

Good golly Theo, you really have attracted a train of admirers, haven't you ;-)

Was referring to the start of this thread. Don't suppose that needs more comment from my side.



Then it depends on what you call 'large margins'. People with builds far 'worse' than the ones I make/use have been able to achieve the same results. And to pick an example from that other thread (can't recall exactly which one atm), Theo called my build 'terrible' and came up with one which literally differed in SIX points. If that's something you call "sub-optimal by large margins", you should seriously consider relocating your margins. And, sub-optimal or not, I find my builds work better for me than the cookie cutters. Obviously, else I'd be specced cookie cutter. Not to mention, like Theo pointed out earlier in this thread, sub-optimal is especially in PvP a subjective term.

What I think the problem of this whole discussion is, is that there are no good arguments as to why being social is better than being an asshat. Nevertheless, I'm glad to see I'm not alone in defending the point anyway; I refuse to live in an anti-social world.

No, actually it wasn't. In my experiences of combat PvP from the PTR, I recall using it as a Shadowstep replacement a lot. Then somebody pointed out the current range and I started doubting. Either I'm recalling it wrong or the range has changed.

The 'problem' is you didn't know where I was coming from but gave your opinion anyway. In this case, I can hardly blame you for it, but it is in fact again a small example of somebody misjudging me; which is an explanation a lot of people (including you, iirc) have problems with hearing from my mouth.

Perhaps, perhaps it's a combination of both.



No, I didn't in the link, but I mentioned in the post that it should be included. It's just that the spec I had at 70 didn't include it and that's the spec I linked and said I was linking. The reason I didn't have it at 70, I've explained earlier; while I fully realize 5 points in DWS would improve my damage more than Elusiveness and Serrated, damage wasn't what I was looking for at the time. With WOTLK coming up, I'd be better off picking up Elusiveness and Serrated Blades, since this would make my level 70 playstyle closer to my level 80 playstyle as DWS would do. And getting used to my 80 playstyle as much as possible was what I was after.

okay 2 things

1: linking a AB scoreboard SS means nothing... how do i know, since you have ZERO assaults, that you dont just gank on the roads?

pvp is fine, world and bgs are fun, but linking bg scoreboards as a way of going "ha! look at how good i am" means precisely nothing

after all, any decent lock or hunter cracks 400k dmg in a AB or EOTS because of how easily they do mass damage

does it mean they are good? hell no
does it mean they suck? not at all

the way you get your results is what matters



and do tell, how is OVERKILL, no DW spec, no shadowstep a great build?

good for ganking, but arena? nah... if you focus on bg's are your main goal, kudos to you, but thats a build that at best is fun to tinker with

unless you got some REAL tricky **** up your sleeve.... but lack of DW spec should make killin resto classes a complete pain, and a lack of answers to being kited makes you vunerable to most casters

no riposte doesnt even secure yourself as a good anti-melee build

link your build, and feel free to explain... but i see that build as being miles behind mutilate in every single way, except MAYBE ganking zero-resil clothies

but even then, shadow dance is miles ahead