Seems like these stats are becoming pretty common in Northrend, along with expertise, and some reading has led me to believe that haste is now a more valuable stat for us than it's been in the past. So despite my desire to be blissfully ignorant, I'm getting frustrated with my inability to figure out if some new piece is an upgrade, sidegrade, or downgrade.
Does anybody have any rules of thumb around how valuable they are relative to AP and Crit? I'll provide the decisions I'm facing, maybe to serve as examples and maybe (selfishly) because you can say "that's definitely better than that dummy!" even if you don't have any broadly applicable rules of thumb for quantifying the value of the stats.
Like how does Talisman of the Tundra compare to Skyguard Silver Cross or Crystalforged Trinket?
Chain of the Tolling Bell vs. Worgen Claw Necklace or Shattered Sun Pendant of Might?
And rings, I recently got Icy Ripper Ring and Scout's Signet Ring -- how do those compare to Mithril Band of the Unscarred and Acrobat's Mark of the Sha'tar?
Edited, Nov 21st 2008 10:29am by JeeBar
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Quantifying / Valuing Armor Pen and HasteFollow
This generally isn't my area of knowledge, but in my experience with level 80 mobs and only having 100 some hit rating due to upgrades and what not of gear as balance I find myself missing them more. Which brings me to the conclusion that wouldn't having an item that gives mediocre AP, a solid hit rating and expertise make it more valuable than say something that procs off the end of a kill or requires a useage with a cooldown?
They always say hit is the most damage worthy stat you can get until you cap.
They always say hit is the most damage worthy stat you can get until you cap.
yup. always always always get +hit until youre capped. next thing to do would, ideally, be expertise capped, but thats not necessarily required from a dps perspective (5-6% dodge is sucky sure, but not nearly as sucky as a low crit rate). after the hit, the values kinda differ, but AP is always a good bet, and crit up till about 30% or so is nice as well (general rule for melee dps, anything after 30% is gravy; still good, but not something to shoot for intentionally).
haste tho, haste is interesting. the way OoC works now is that haste for a druid will up its proc rate basically, which has some fun connotations attached to it. quantifying it isnt quite as easy from what i can see, but im sure its only a matter of time till someone does just that. in the meantime, for leveling, i wouldnt worry about haste. probably the only group that would want haste would be rogues and maybe fury warriors if hit isnt an issue (which, as you level up, hit becomes more and more of an issue thanks to the DR on the rating scale).
haste tho, haste is interesting. the way OoC works now is that haste for a druid will up its proc rate basically, which has some fun connotations attached to it. quantifying it isnt quite as easy from what i can see, but im sure its only a matter of time till someone does just that. in the meantime, for leveling, i wouldnt worry about haste. probably the only group that would want haste would be rogues and maybe fury warriors if hit isnt an issue (which, as you level up, hit becomes more and more of an issue thanks to the DR on the rating scale).
Regarding getting hit capped, the old 142 number was for level 70 against level 73 mobs, i.e. your level +3, which you only saw in heroic and raid bosses. I can't find the exact logic or number at the moment, but hit cap against your level +2 was dramatically lower, something around and maybe even under 100.
From that logic, one question and one point:
Question: Does/will that cap of 142 remain the magic number for mobs 3 levels higher than you all the way through 80?
Point: When leveling you're usually fighting mobs your level or 1-2 higher. Occassionally +3 but not consistently. So I'm thinking 100-120 hit is sufficient for leveling gear.
Interesting point about crit beyond 30% being gravy, I'd always thought higher the better. At 35% I'd get jealous hearing about y'all with 40+. Every gear comparison for me was simply "what does it do to my 1) AP and 2) crit?"
So thinking out loud, as far as coming up with a rule of thumb, what I'm thinking of so far is this:
Hit to 100 > AP > Crit to 30% > Expertise > Armor Penetration > Haste > Hit to 142
From that logic, one question and one point:
Question: Does/will that cap of 142 remain the magic number for mobs 3 levels higher than you all the way through 80?
Point: When leveling you're usually fighting mobs your level or 1-2 higher. Occassionally +3 but not consistently. So I'm thinking 100-120 hit is sufficient for leveling gear.
Interesting point about crit beyond 30% being gravy, I'd always thought higher the better. At 35% I'd get jealous hearing about y'all with 40+. Every gear comparison for me was simply "what does it do to my 1) AP and 2) crit?"
So thinking out loud, as far as coming up with a rule of thumb, what I'm thinking of so far is this:
Hit to 100 > AP > Crit to 30% > Expertise > Armor Penetration > Haste > Hit to 142
one thing that i wonder about haste. Does it matter more the slower you swing. seems like you get more of a return for it. is this true or am i just messed up?
Jeebar wrote:
Question: Does/will that cap of 142 remain the magic number for mobs 3 levels higher than you all the way through 80?
Nope, it's a fair bit higher now.
From the Feral Druid Numbers Thread
Feral Druid Numbers wrote:
Hit Rating
==========
1 HitRating = 0.030% Hit
32.79 HitRating = 1% Hit
Cap vs Level 80 mob = 5% Hit = 163.95 HitRating
Cap vs Level 81 mob = 5.5% Hit = 180.34 HitRating
Cap vs Level 82 mob = 6% Hit = 196.74 HitRating
Cap vs Level 83 mob = 9% Hit = 295.11 HitRating (Raid Bosses)
==========
1 HitRating = 0.030% Hit
32.79 HitRating = 1% Hit
Cap vs Level 80 mob = 5% Hit = 163.95 HitRating
Cap vs Level 81 mob = 5.5% Hit = 180.34 HitRating
Cap vs Level 82 mob = 6% Hit = 196.74 HitRating
Cap vs Level 83 mob = 9% Hit = 295.11 HitRating (Raid Bosses)
No clue about the comparing stats for AP/Crit with Armor penetration/Haste, this will have to be derived from extensive testing and then comparing AP gained/lost from the dps-differences.
One thing I do know though, is how to theory a little:
ARMOR PENETRATION
- with the way mitigation scales with armor (first 1,000 armor giving a LOT more mitigation than lets say the difference between 19,000 and 20,000) ->
- armor penetration gets better and better the more you have
- with our Faerie Fire (Feral) as a good start to this, I would say you can NEVER go wrong with Armor penetration
- small example (NOT based on numbers at level 80, since I have no clue about them): armor mitigation is calculated through formulas like
* mitigation for bosses = armor / (armor + 10,558), with 10,558 the number for a level 70 player hitting him (might be off a little but hey, it is an example!)
- bosses armor was typically something like 7,000, so the base mitigation was 7,000/(7,000+10,558)= 40%
- now armor penetration, let's say 800 (Faerie Fire might be close ;-) ): mitigation becomes 6,200/(6,200+10,558)=37%, which is an increase of unmitigated dps done by the player of (1-37%)/(1-40%)-1 = 5%!
- now more armor penetration, let's say you get another 1,600 from items for a grand total of 2,400
- mitigation becomes 4,600/(4,600+10,558)=30.3%, which is an increase of unmitigated dps done by the player of (1-30.3%)/(1-40%) = 16.2%, which is more than 3*5% (three times the armor penetration in the first example)
- the more Armor penetration, the higher this gets
- there is no linear formula between Armor penetration and AP, it depends on the formulas above, so no conversion in general possible here...
- and, since all attacks you do benefit from Armor penetration, it can be quite valuable.
HASTE
- haste influence is quite easy to estimate, once you can make the following breakdown:
* damage% from white attacks;
* damage% from special attacks;
* damage% from Omen of Clarity attacks.
- let's say you have 35%, 55%, 10% (NO clue, just an educated guess). Total is 100% damage.
- one % haste gives you
* 1% more damage from white attacks (linear scaling);
* a little bit more damage from special attacks (a little more chance on an extra combo point through Primal Fury), which is approximately 0% (non-linear scaling, estimated to be 0%);
* 1% more damage from Omen of Clarity attacks (linear scaling).
- meaning your new damage will be 35%*101% + 55%*100% + 10%*101% = 100.45% or an increase of 0.45%
- let's say your dps is 2,000 (again no clue), then this means an increase in dps of 9, or 126 AP (9*14)
- in this example 1% haste would be equal to more or less 126 AP
- this of course differs when damage breakdown is different and with extremely high crit% the 0% from extra combo points might be skewy too
- this might become VERY skewy (and even untrue) if haste has influence on other parameters too (like energy regeneration, which would be awesome), but I think at the moment it does not.
Oh well, chocolate cookies for everyone who read this post fully! /wink
One thing I do know though, is how to theory a little:
ARMOR PENETRATION
- with the way mitigation scales with armor (first 1,000 armor giving a LOT more mitigation than lets say the difference between 19,000 and 20,000) ->
- armor penetration gets better and better the more you have
- with our Faerie Fire (Feral) as a good start to this, I would say you can NEVER go wrong with Armor penetration
- small example (NOT based on numbers at level 80, since I have no clue about them): armor mitigation is calculated through formulas like
* mitigation for bosses = armor / (armor + 10,558), with 10,558 the number for a level 70 player hitting him (might be off a little but hey, it is an example!)
- bosses armor was typically something like 7,000, so the base mitigation was 7,000/(7,000+10,558)= 40%
- now armor penetration, let's say 800 (Faerie Fire might be close ;-) ): mitigation becomes 6,200/(6,200+10,558)=37%, which is an increase of unmitigated dps done by the player of (1-37%)/(1-40%)-1 = 5%!
- now more armor penetration, let's say you get another 1,600 from items for a grand total of 2,400
- mitigation becomes 4,600/(4,600+10,558)=30.3%, which is an increase of unmitigated dps done by the player of (1-30.3%)/(1-40%) = 16.2%, which is more than 3*5% (three times the armor penetration in the first example)
- the more Armor penetration, the higher this gets
- there is no linear formula between Armor penetration and AP, it depends on the formulas above, so no conversion in general possible here...
- and, since all attacks you do benefit from Armor penetration, it can be quite valuable.
HASTE
- haste influence is quite easy to estimate, once you can make the following breakdown:
* damage% from white attacks;
* damage% from special attacks;
* damage% from Omen of Clarity attacks.
- let's say you have 35%, 55%, 10% (NO clue, just an educated guess). Total is 100% damage.
- one % haste gives you
* 1% more damage from white attacks (linear scaling);
* a little bit more damage from special attacks (a little more chance on an extra combo point through Primal Fury), which is approximately 0% (non-linear scaling, estimated to be 0%);
* 1% more damage from Omen of Clarity attacks (linear scaling).
- meaning your new damage will be 35%*101% + 55%*100% + 10%*101% = 100.45% or an increase of 0.45%
- let's say your dps is 2,000 (again no clue), then this means an increase in dps of 9, or 126 AP (9*14)
- in this example 1% haste would be equal to more or less 126 AP
- this of course differs when damage breakdown is different and with extremely high crit% the 0% from extra combo points might be skewy too
- this might become VERY skewy (and even untrue) if haste has influence on other parameters too (like energy regeneration, which would be awesome), but I think at the moment it does not.
Oh well, chocolate cookies for everyone who read this post fully! /wink
the thing with armor pen immunios is that its now percentage based, so youll gain a higher effect from it on high armor targets than you will on low armor targets (but high armor targets will still block more overall damage than low armor targets will).
ArP is still a good stat, just not as good as it was when it was a flat value. when it was a flat value, it stacked with stuff like sunder and expose armor, meaning you could potentially drop some boss mobs down to zero armor, which meant a huge increase in dps. now, with a percentage modifier in place of the flat one, ArP is good, but not quite the crazy-good stat it was when it was first conceived.
having said that, this kind of change increases the value of flat armor reducers like sunder, expose armor, faerie fire and curse of recklessness. i dont know any numbers to back up what i say, but i personally feel like ArP is a tertiary stat at this point. hit, expertise and crit are all going to serve you much better from a raid stand point, and the change to OoC makes haste more valuable for a druid. ArP is going to be, imo, about tied with haste in terms of value on items for other classes, and somewhat under haste in value for druids (assuming hit cap of course).
ArP is still a good stat, just not as good as it was when it was a flat value. when it was a flat value, it stacked with stuff like sunder and expose armor, meaning you could potentially drop some boss mobs down to zero armor, which meant a huge increase in dps. now, with a percentage modifier in place of the flat one, ArP is good, but not quite the crazy-good stat it was when it was first conceived.
having said that, this kind of change increases the value of flat armor reducers like sunder, expose armor, faerie fire and curse of recklessness. i dont know any numbers to back up what i say, but i personally feel like ArP is a tertiary stat at this point. hit, expertise and crit are all going to serve you much better from a raid stand point, and the change to OoC makes haste more valuable for a druid. ArP is going to be, imo, about tied with haste in terms of value on items for other classes, and somewhat under haste in value for druids (assuming hit cap of course).
RareBeast -- did I read you correct that we will now need 295 (!) hit rating?
I can't have read that correctly. I'm just 75 but I am not seeing a ton of hit on feral gear. Does this change at 80? Tell me I'm misreading here....
I can't have read that correctly. I'm just 75 but I am not seeing a ton of hit on feral gear. Does this change at 80? Tell me I'm misreading here....
Quor,
Thanks for the clarification on the new mechanics for Armor penetration! I understand that now you get "ignores X% of armor"? Agreed with you then...
Thanks for the clarification on the new mechanics for Armor penetration! I understand that now you get "ignores X% of armor"? Agreed with you then...
Quote:
RareBeast -- did I read you correct that we will now need 295 (!) hit rating?
I can't have read that correctly. I'm just 75 but I am not seeing a ton of hit on feral gear. Does this change at 80? Tell me I'm misreading here....
I can't have read that correctly. I'm just 75 but I am not seeing a ton of hit on feral gear. Does this change at 80? Tell me I'm misreading here....
I don't think you need to worry too much about +hit. It will come - just remember we are sharing gear with rogues and they need 755!! +hit to get capped - so leather gear will come with +hit. :)
Thanks for all the time and thought you guys put into this. I made it all the way thru your post, Immunios, but if you tested me on reading comprehension I'd surely not deserve one of the cookies you offered up.
Simply put:
Immunios' Post
------------
My Head
It's clear I'm not the only one facing the dilemma of quantifying/valuing all these crazy new stats relative to our old standbys. I'm just gonna keep vendoring things unless they are clear upgrades.
Edited, Nov 24th 2008 4:22pm by JeeBar
Simply put:
Immunios' Post
------------
My Head
It's clear I'm not the only one facing the dilemma of quantifying/valuing all these crazy new stats relative to our old standbys. I'm just gonna keep vendoring things unless they are clear upgrades.
Edited, Nov 24th 2008 4:22pm by JeeBar
ElitistJerks will come up with something no doubt.
If you do want to try it yourself and if you have enough time:
- take easy, long duration boss fights -->without any moving involved<--
- record a LOT of them, wearing a certain combination of armor and figure out your dps (always measure in dps)
- change some armor, preferably you only change ONE stat, for example from no haste on a leg-slot to 15 haste on a leg-slot, no other differences
- the difference in dps belongs (with enough recording) to the 15 haste (in the example), let's say +20 dps
- then your 15 haste is worth 20*14=280 AP (always convert to AP /smile)
- so one haste is worth 280/15=18,7 AP (which is NOT true by far by the way)
- do this for ALL stats (convertion to AP) and you get the table that ElitistJerks had pre-WotLK!
No other way to do these things...
If you do want to try it yourself and if you have enough time:
- take easy, long duration boss fights -->without any moving involved<--
- record a LOT of them, wearing a certain combination of armor and figure out your dps (always measure in dps)
- change some armor, preferably you only change ONE stat, for example from no haste on a leg-slot to 15 haste on a leg-slot, no other differences
- the difference in dps belongs (with enough recording) to the 15 haste (in the example), let's say +20 dps
- then your 15 haste is worth 20*14=280 AP (always convert to AP /smile)
- so one haste is worth 280/15=18,7 AP (which is NOT true by far by the way)
- do this for ALL stats (convertion to AP) and you get the table that ElitistJerks had pre-WotLK!
No other way to do these things...
Quote:
- take easy, long duration boss fights -->without any moving involved<--
Or the level 80 boss target dummy :P
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