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#1 Nov 19 2008 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent

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Ghostcrawler (blue Blizzard poster for the ones who do not know him wrote:

This is an update to my previous post on Feral armor changes.

ARMOR
As previously announced, we are changing the way bear armor works so that bonus armor on items does not receive the bear armor multiplier. Specifically this means that weapons, trinkets, rings, necks and cloaks with bonus armor will not be multiplied by the bear bonus. Only cloth and leather will benefit from the Bear and Dire Bear multiplier.

We are compensating Ferals for this armor loss by improving the Survival of the Fittest talent. In addition to its current effects (stats and crit prevention), it will now also increase armor contribution from cloth and leather items by 22/33/66%. That should be very close to your current armor bonus. This makes Survival of the Fittest rather over-budget by talent standards, but we figured it was one talent we can be pretty certain most tank-oriented druids will have (and to be honest nearly all Ferals).

FERAL ATTACK POWER
We are no longer going to have weapons in the game which improve feral attack power. Instead, your attack power will scale based on the dps of the item. Practically speaking this means almost no change for any gear you currently use -- you should not see your dps change. What it does mean is that we can create the occasional dps staff that could be used by druids or hunters (or very undergeared warriors), and that Ferals may occasionaly use two-handed dps maces. We are going to convert all existing Feral staves over to this new system (but again, you should not notice any change to your dps). We are also adjusting the UI so that when druids look at these weapons, you will see what the improvement will be to your damage in forms. This does not mean we are no longer going to create bear and cat weapons, just that those weapons will be slightly less niche than they are now.

These changes will be in place in the next patch. This patch will ship sometime before the 3.1 major content patch featuring the Ulduar raid.

On first glance this sounds huge in terms of scaling! Any thoughts that might spoil my euforism? (spelling?)

- Armor budget on items can be spent elsewhere now that talents compensate for the loss of armor bonus on items... meaning more stamina or attack power or crit rating or whatever.
- No more fixed +AP on weapons means that the more we progress into endgame (read: finding higher dps maces/staves), the more gain we get AP-wise. Scaling is always always better than non-scaling.

Very curious how everything looks when the patch comes, numberwise...

Edit: forgot to elaborate.

Edited, Nov 20th 2008 2:55am by Immunios

#2 Nov 20 2008 at 12:45 AM Rating: Good

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What will they do with predatory strikes then? Since it increases AP on equipped weapon it seems pretty nerfed with this change. Heart of the wild also gives a bonus to AP, but since we now get pure weapon damage this will result in less benefit from this talent. Overall it seems like our dps would drop unless those talents are modfied as well.

If you raid with an enhancement shaman you get a 10% to AP buff whenever he crits. Again we get a lot less benefit without the feral AP.

I do however look forward to the armor change and the change to sotf. it will be nice to have more choices in rings, neck and trinket slots.

#3 Nov 20 2008 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good

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Nice question on the PS ramifications.

Ghostcrawler wrote:

Instead, your attack power will scale based on the dps of the item

Re-reading the blue post it seems that the weapon AP will be based on the DPS. I think the new tool tip will display the AP granted via weapon DPS.

Love the changes with regards to FAP. Not really sure if a 66% bonus to armor would be the same as the bonus armor from all those slots. To late for math right now. Will either excel or research this tomorrow.

Either way having real choice in weapons and non-leather slots is great. DPS trinkets while tanking might be sexy.

I wish we could use polearms also to further expand our choices. Many of them have good stats for tanking. Would further expand the drop table selections and make more weapons desired by more classes.

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#4 Nov 20 2008 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good

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Well that's great news! I remember Ghost Crawler saying they wanted to get rid of Feral AP (because it's not a solution, it's just a quick fix) but I thought he said it would probably wait until another expansion.

What this mean, is that although there might be some bumps down the road, they are trying to make us fit in the same mold. Having wildly different mechanics from every other classes only meant that it was a pain to balance, and that we needed very specific gear which could often be either difficult to obtain or just non-existent.

Now we will gear up in a similar fashion to some other classes, but our shapeshifting and talents will adapt our gear to our needs. That means less gear, more uses, less complicated.

/cheer

Edit: I really like that GC takes the time to warn us in advance of such big changes - as he said last time, it's not implemented now but I don't want you to go out of your way to acquire some specific items that you will end up not needing as bad soon. For weapons, I think I'll stop vendoring quest rewards and wait after the patch, maybe one of them will be better for me than it was ;)

Edited, Nov 20th 2008 6:58am by PhoenixOmbre

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#5 Nov 20 2008 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good

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To DKDruid:

I think your AP will be more or less the same. The post says that AP will scale with dps. I think we will get for example an X times the weapon's dps as extra AP. In that case, all those nice buffs will still be awesome for us, as it should be. I do not worry about this, because nothing in the post hints of a nerf to ferals. The scenario you sketch would be a HUGE nerf, so it is not how it will be.

#6 Nov 20 2008 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent

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ghostcrawler mentioned this in beta. he said how the feral AP bonuses always felt "clunky", and that it was a rather inelegant way of keeping druids on par with other classes in terms of DPS potential. this is a nice change in two ways. one, it refines the stat system to be a bit easier to understand, and two it opens up a variety of items for a number of classes. druids can dip into more 2h maces now without worry about losing out on a big hunk of dps. you can get a craftable 2h mace as a starter point like a warrior or retadin would, instead of having to grind out exalted with a faction or hope for a drop from an instance boss before youre "viable".

#7 Nov 20 2008 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good

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I'm suprised the route they took with armor. I thought they were only going to adjust the difference for bear only but from how it's worded it sounds like ferals will get a nice boost in all other forms as well. This will give a nice boost to survivability in caster and cat form which should play out well in pvp. Some people have been doing some theory crafting with top tanking gear pre and post change though at it seems that it's a considerable nerf for potential raid tanking mitigation. If this is true then we may still see some future adjustments in bear's base modifier to keep the tanks in line with each other.

I'm happy to see the weapon change implemented so soon as well. It greatly increases the variety of weapons we have to choose from and now our progression won't be so linear in raiding. Perhaps this will also lead druids being able to train in polearms as well to further share itemization with hunters. Prior to this change it wouldn't have made sense to itemize another class of weapon for feral. But with this change former feral weapons will be perfectly viable hunter weapons as well, so allowing ferals access to polearms seems like a natural step to take since the itemization is already in place and polearms don't feel out of place as a druidic weapon.

#8 Nov 20 2008 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good

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We have a 370% armor modifier via dire bear, a 10% via Thick Hide and now 66% via SotF. Agility grants armor at the rate of 2 armor per agility but is not affected by bear modifiers and will be ignored.

From elitistjerks they had the armor adjustment as 5.17 armor per armor on gear. This will be changed due to the new mechanic. The math for armor from a single 100 armor item gives a 517 total (100+(100*3.7))*1.1 for a 5.17 increase.

The new equation now assumes SotF 3/3 and Thick Hide 3/3 as they directly modify our armor. With the Thick Hide granting a 10% and SotF giving 66% increase in the contribution from armor. The base modifier is 370%.

Example from a 100 armor item for new math
newGainA would be 100*4.7*1.1*1.66 = 858.22 armor rounded to 858 I think This would be assuming SotF works as Thick Hide does.

TSo we gain from leather/cloth slots a ~858% increase in armor values on those items. Which seems ungodly over powered. Lets do some more math and see if it is in fact OP. I will do it for both ways of implementing the talent as Blizz has grammar issues and for the sake of thoroughness.

 
type	Slot		Armor	oldGain	          newGain 
leather	Head		443	2290.31	  	  3801.9146 
leather	Shoulders	409	2114.53		  3510.1198 
leather	Chest		564	2915.88		  4840.3608 
leather	Wrist		247	1276.99	          2119.8034 
leather	Waist		317	1638.89		  2720.5574 
leather	Gloves		353	1825.01		  3029.5166 
leather	Legs		477	2466.09		  4093.7094 
leather	Feet		375	1938.75		  3218.325 
other	Neck		336	1737.12		  369.6 
other	Back		150	775.5		  165 
other	Ring		490	2533.3		  539 
other	Ring		350	1809.5		  385 
other	Trinket		550	2843.5		  605 
other	Trinket		308	1592.36		  338.8 
other	Weapon		700	3619		  770 
other 	Idol		0	0		  0 
					 
Armor via old method		31376.73		 
Armor method A			30506.707		 
Armor from leather		27334.307		 
Armor from other		3172.4

Well according to the made up armor numbers I used we would lose 1k from the new math.

Math is fun.

Let me know if I botched anything as I can modify my spreadsheet and get new numbers.

edit: Thanks to AstarintheDruid for pointing out a math error and giving real numbers.

Edited, Nov 21st 2008 1:47pm by Horsemouth

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#9 Nov 21 2008 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good

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With the new weapon changes will will finally be able to use fist weapons to good effect?

I rocked fists for a bit before level 30. They look cool as heck. Not that I would see them much but it would be nice if Blizz though about us when making fist weapons. hint hint

Would be nice to have the additional option.

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#10 Nov 21 2008 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good

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Horsemouth,

NewGainA in your math can not be correct. It basically says that armor will be (100+(100*3.7))*2.76. This is due to the fact that you multiply by 1.1 AND by 1.66, taking the "1" into double account.

I think, reading Ghostcrawlers post that it will be like this (which in the end equals NewGainB):

OLD: (100+(100*3.7))*1.1 = 517
NEW: (100+(100*3.7))*1.1 + ((100*0.66)+((100*0.66)*3.7)) = (100+(100*3.7))*1.76 = 827

Sooooooo, the extra 827-517 = 310 per 100 armor from leather (cloth ignored for simplicity) must compensatie for the extra armor lost from bonuses on non-leather items. In your example, it clearly does not though. So if those values are not only "made-up" but also plausible, it would be a setback in total armor value...

But, aside from all this: NewGainA is incorrect, thus no ungodly overpowered druid armor I'm afraid.

#11 Nov 21 2008 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent

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Your math is WAY off, Horse.

100 armor leather belt

100 x 1.1 (Thick Hide) x 1.66 (SotF) x 4.7 (Dire Bear Form) = 858.22

If the SotF change is additive (and percentages almost never are):

100 x (1.1+.66) x 4.7 = 827.2

You should have multiplied by .66 instead of 1.66 if you want to use that particular method.

Pre-Nax gear:

 
Head      Helm of Cheated Fate            443 armor 
Shoulers  Spaulders of the Areless Thief  409 armor 
Back      Durable Nerubhide Cape          150 armor 
Chest     Heroes' Dreamwalker Rainments   564 armor 
Wrist     Advanced Tooled-leather bands   247 armor 
Hands     Heroes' Dreamwalker Handgrips   353 armor 
Belt      Jorach's Crocolisk skin belt    317 armor 
Legs      Chain Gang Legguards            477 armor 
Boots     Boots of the Whirling Mist      375 armor 
Neck      Amulet of Wills                 336 armor 
Ring1     Keystone Great-ring             490 armor 
Ring2     Ring of Earthen Might           350 armor 
Trinket1  Offering of Sacrifice           550 armor 
Trinket2  Badge of Tenacity               308 armor 
Weapon    Enraged Feral Staff             700 armor 
Idol      Idol of Terror                    0 armor

Armor from leather: 3185
Armor from other sources: 2884
Total armor from gear: 6069

Current system: 6069 x 1.1 (Thick Hide) x 4.7 (Dire Bear) = 31374
Proposed system: 3185 x 1.1 x 4.7 x 1.66 + 2884 x 1.1 = 30506

It's only a slight nerf if they leave armor on staves and stop multiplying. At higher gear levels, our armor should scale a little better as the iLevel of our gear increases and the base armor on our leather increases.

Edited, Nov 21st 2008 11:02am by AstarintheDruid

#12 Nov 21 2008 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good

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Agreed totally with Astarin, though I somehow can not believe that the 66% will be multiplicative. But we will see! /smile

(( of course I hope it is! ))

#13 Nov 21 2008 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good

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I didn't Thick Hide was still going to work on non-leather slots. Will edit the post.

Thanks for showing me where I mathed wrong.

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#14 Nov 21 2008 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent

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Ghost posted a follow up to this - Linky

GhostCrawler wrote:

Hi.

On the subject of weapons, this change should be transparent to most druids. You will end up having a few more items that you can use, but your feral staves will continue to do the damage they do now. If it makes it clearer, imagine that feral attack power is not going away as a concept, but weapon dps will instead translate to their current FAP values. This is also not license for us to never again add weapons which are optimized for druids. It should just provide more options in between major upgrades.

On the subject of armor, the intent of the change is to give you more options in which trinkets and other jewelry you use, instead of always having to rely on the (relatively rare) bonus armor pieces. (We don't think the solution of just dropping bonus armor pieces everywhere is a great one either -- no single stat should trump the others by that much.) The change isn't intended to be a nerf at all. A lot of numbers have been thrown around in this thread. Give me some time to review them and see where any discrepancies lie.

Our design remains to have fewer specialized items drop so that more loot is actually valued by someone in the group. A lot of the druid itemization was a relic of the older system and we have been wanting to convert it over. But with any change like this, it may take some time before all of the rough edges are smoothed over. To use a tired cliche, the designers tend to take the stance that the design of WoW is a journey not a destination.

On the myriad of other topics...

I realize some players have made some passionate and intelligent arguments for other ways in which bears can scale from gear. That isn't something we are going to do at the moment, but something we may investigate in the future. I understand that it's fun to improve tanking gear, and while we don't want it to be such a burden to get the +armor pieces, we also don't want the choices to be so meaningless that you aren't gearing for tanking at all. Let's see how things stand after these changes go live.

We are not adding additional weapons that druids can use at the moment, but we may consider it in the future.

Block is a very good stat now, and we have read a lot about the notion that "unblocked hits are the new crushing blows." We don't want the block mechanic to mean that death knights and druids (and possibly even paladins) are left behind. Again the goal is to have four viable tank classes. That doesn't mean identical, but it also doesn't mean that druids get swapped out for some fights or relegated to permanent off-tank status.

Edited, Nov 21st 2008 3:48pm by GryphonStalker

#15 Nov 22 2008 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good

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Another follow up. :> I do suggest reading the link as Ghost answers some questions posed.

Upcoming Feral Changes, Part III

GhostCrawler wrote:

Here is a thread where you can continue your discussion on the previously mentioned Feral druid changes.

I do urge you to confine the discussion to the armor and FAP changes only. The threads fill up too quickly as it is, so this is not a great place to chime in with totally unrelated questions, even druid ones.

The changes should be a buff for any druid not in full Naxx 25 gear (and I'm pretty sure that means ALL druids for the moment). One of the reasons we are announcing this change early is so you can make your preparations accordingly. A druid with every possible item from Naxx 25-level content loses about 3700 armor, but to be honest, those armor trinkets and weapons were so insanely good that they were likely going to be nerfed anyway.

Also note this is a reasonable buff for PvP, since you typically don't wear a bunch of +armor trinkets in those situations.

We don't want to make any changes to the way Feral druids work at this point to make them more like warriors. Now we also don't want druids to be inferior tanks to warriors, but we see no evidence that is happening at the moment and only speculation that it might happen in the future, at which point we will make additional changes if needed. You can say you don't believe we will make changes, which sort of ends the conversation. :(

The goal was not to make you ignore +armor trinkets. The goal was that a bear lacking those trinkets wouldn't be at such a disadvantage. We would rather you use a new level 80 trinket with a little bit of wasted block on it than a blue trinket from level 62 or something with silly amounts of armor.

It is fine, helpful even, to alert us to situations where you think bears might not be competitive at surviving encounters compared to other tanks. Our goal is they are roughly similar and we will continue to make changes if they are not. While I understand some of you want more different tanking stats to focus on, that is not our goal for the moment. We think it is perfectly possible given the current design to make bears able to stand up to the damage they need to. In other words, the numbers may still need to be tweaked on occasion, but there is nothing inherent to the calculations that says a tank must have block and parry as tanking stats in order for the math to work.

Some more details to help answer some of the questions we've seen:

-- Cloaks do have base armor which gets multipled by the bear bonus.
-- There is no multiplier on any bonus armor. Not the bear bonus. Not the talent bonuses.
-- There is a 2% armor benefit you can get from a metagem.
-- The ultimate bear modifier should be 4.7 (Dire Bear form) x 1.66 (Survival of the Fittest) x 1.1 (Thick Hide) x 1.02 (meta gem).
-- The best bear we can create in current itemization has 35,907 armor, which is 68.34% mitigation vs. level 83 bosses or 70.21% mitigation versus level 80 mobs.
-- Before these changes, you might have been able to build a bear with nearly 40,000 armor, but that relies on using Defender's Code and Origin of Nightmares, items of such ridiculous power that we were going to nerf them anyway before this change. (Now they're fine.)
-- Note how close that 40,000 armor is to the cap already. :(
-- We do have concerns block may be too good a stat for future raids, and we'll keep an eye on it.
-- Equipping a weapon will still boost Savage Roar (and everything else) the way it does currently.

Bottom line: armor was too good for druids. That was a blessing if you could get the items and a curse if you could not.

The counterarguments we get are: 1) Well, I can't be competitive without that armor, or 2) Give me something else to focus on then.

We think number one is a concern, but we're not convinced it's a problem at the moment and totally solvable if it gets to be. Number two is just a different design. We designed Ferals with fewer mitigation stats than other classes. You still have tanking stats, and gear can still provide upgrades. That's not to say it will always be the case, but we have no plans to change it at the current time.

#16 Nov 22 2008 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent

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Horsemouth wrote:

With the new weapon changes will will finally be able to use fist weapons to good effect?

Ahh, the good old days.

Running around with a dagger might become in again. Of course, back then we used the dagger to stab stuff with.

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#17 Nov 22 2008 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good

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It's still unlikely that 1H weapons will be useful. I believe they're using weapon DPS to convert to FAP, and 2H weapons have much higher DPS values than 1H weapons.

#18 Nov 22 2008 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good

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If I remember we can equip two fist weapons both with a DPS rating.

Its more of a crazy idea than a thing I will likely do or they would even itemize for at all.

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#19 Nov 23 2008 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good

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I'm almost positive we can't dual wield one-handed weapons, not even two fist weapons which seem inherently dual-wieldable.

#20 Nov 23 2008 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good

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Ya we can't dual wield fists. Just got an off hand fist quest reward and couldn't equip.

I remember using 2 fists that I bought from the vendor in Darn while still questing in the area. Must of been the left was not classified as a weapon or I am just old and don't remember stuff for beans.

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#21 Nov 23 2008 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent

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so is it gonna be vs your dps or the dps and the speed of your weapon??

#22 Nov 23 2008 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good

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Ahh....the good old says when [wowitem=13385]Tome of Knowledge[/wowitem] was the best feral off-hand in the game. I only DE'd it 2 days ago after having it sitting in my bank in case Blizzard ever made an OP 1h Weapon for us. I realised it was never going to happen and if it did I could always go and solo another - and I REALLY need the bank space!

#23 Nov 24 2008 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent

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Sounds like this is going to put druids into direct competition with all of those ret pallies and possibly DKs (are any DK specs into 2H weapons)?

Will this mean that a druid will get more DPS out of taking some 3.5+ speed, super high DPS weapon.

As for the armor, eh, I dont trust 'em - my AC went from 30k to 20k a few weeks before the expansion and now the math is saying that its going to decrease again?

At least SoF has made DEF moot for us now so I can load up on dodge and STA.

#24 Nov 26 2008 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent

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Yet moar follow up, I am curious what they will eventually come up with. I'm also glad I'm taking thing very slow in Northrend, so by the time I actually hit end game they may have this all figured out. :3

Master GhostCrawler wrote:

Armor
We changed the way armor worked because we thought it was a bad design that a druid with the Naxx 25 armor trinkets would be amazing and one lacking them would be far behind, perhaps to the extent that you wouldn't be invited to tank. As a few people have pointed out, the change to the armor calculation is as much of a nerf as not getting those trinkets to drop is a nerf.

Having armor as a good stat is fun. Having armor as such a good stat that you don't really care what else the item has on it is a problem. (And to be fair, I initially didn't realize the situation was quite as broken as it was, so thanks to all the persistent druids out there on this and other forums.) While some of you liked the element of having to get a couple of fairly rare drops to be a really good tank, other druids seem to understand the problem and agree with the change.

Stuff besides armor
The other part of the design is that without bonus armor being so ridiculously good for druids, you are left with fewer stats on which you can try to improve your tanking survivability. This is the "It may have been broken, but it's all we had" argument.

While I think it is a bit silly to totally discount Stamina ("because nobody wants to be a mana sponge") and Dodge ("because it has diminishing returns") as bad tank stats, overall we are sympathetic to the idea that it's fun to get drops that make you a better tank and druids don't get to do that as much as other classes. We're talking about other ways to scale your mitigation through gear. I don't have any announcements to make about how that would work, but you should keep a couple of things in mind: 1) We wouldn't want to do it through armor or dodge, since making it easier to get those values very high unsolves the problem again, 2) Adding additional mitigation of any kind would probably mean having to nerf Ferals in other ways (like say armor) to keep you from getting too far ahead of other tanks. But we need to see what block actually does for paladins and warriors too.

#25 Nov 27 2008 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good

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I'd like to add, that they should remove the armor bonus from Moonkin form, and go with a stamina increase instead. I noticed that they started to change this in the past patch, so it would be more intuitive to let the Ferals keep their armor bonus and give the casters the stamina, since Moonkin no longer can regenerate mana based on melee damage.
Having read the last blue post: resilience can be more useful to druid tanks than other classes.

Edited, Nov 27th 2008 8:24pm by sederix

#26 Dec 16 2008 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent

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SirJac wrote:

I'm happy to see the weapon change implemented so soon as well. It greatly increases the variety of weapons we have to choose from and now our progression won't be so linear in raiding. Perhaps this will also lead druids being able to train in polearms as well to further share itemization with hunters. Prior to this change it wouldn't have made sense to itemize another class of weapon for feral. But with this change former feral weapons will be perfectly viable hunter weapons as well, so allowing ferals access to polearms seems like a natural step to take since the itemization is already in place and polearms don't feel out of place as a druidic weapon.

Well it seems I'm a prophet, druids will be able to train in polearms in the new patch according to mmo-champion.

Quote:

Druid (Skills List / Talent + Glyph Calc.)

Polearms: Now trainable by Druids.
Starfall: Instead of canceling shapeshifting, now cancels on shapeshifting into an animal form.

Just wanted to say that I called it :)

Edited, Dec 16th 2008 11:02am by SirJac

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