FROST FAQ: It's ice cold! (update 12/7/08)Follow

So... you rolled your DK. You love it? Me too.

Now it's time to figure out the most important thing about any character... the spec. The ins and outs, and everything it's all about. Maybe I can help you with that.

What spec should I choose?

Well, instead of thinking of what build you need to be... DKs are different. All the specs can fulfill all 3 of a DK's roles. PvP, tanking, or deeps. So let's figure out your role, and what you're looking for in that role...

I wanna deeps!

** BIG OL' NOTE: ALL builds, talented well, do comparable dps... on average blood and unholy end up higher then frost in a raid setting... but it's close enough to play what you like. Try them all out and go from there. **

See the DPS FAQ here (( http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=10;mid=122803975248229803;num=34;page=1 )) for more info.

I wanna tanks!

What sounds like a better tank to you?

Great single target threat with self-healing. (blood)
Capable of every situation well, single target or aoe. (frost)
Godly at aoe encounters, with a great personal defense buff. (unholy)

Try them all out, but that's a decent guildline for what to expect.

I wanna pvpz!

This is a little more subjective, but basically...

What's better for pvp in your opinion?

High physical damage while being self-sufficent in 1v1 encounters. Strong for it's consistant damage and it's self healing abilities. (blood)
On-demand burst, with a lot of anti-kiting options. Ranged snares, a decent selection of armor-ignoring damage, and a strong PVP cc ability in Hungering Cold. (frost)
Gimmicks, magic damage, with good anti-magic abilities... and a pet. Bone shield, a strong main rune ability that ignores armor, and extra CC via the ghoul's stun. (unholy)

There's a few pvp threads floating around, but if pvp is your aim... take the time to try everything out! There's no way to tell you what's best... it all depends on what you can play well, what kinda pvp your aiming to master, your arena make-up/bracket... it's just way too varied. Unlike aiming for dps though, cross-specs and more unique builds can shine a little better... and as a DK, they tend to work better then most classes. There are a lot of talents which are debatable of what's worth getting, and what's something you can sacrifice to get it.

** If you took a quick gander, and think FROST is for you... read on >:D **

Why frost?

I personally love it. It has something for every situation. A good tanking cooldown, good aoe damage abilities, a lot of armor-ignoring damage, many answers to kiting in PvP, and the best non-cooldown RP dump a DK has to offer.

Frost throws out big crits and doesn't care who it offends doing it. Obliterate is it's mistress on the side, and Frost Strike is the wife that brings home friends for threesomes. It's everything a warrior wishes it could be, minus mortal strike. It's everything a mutilate rogue wants, minus stealth. It's a beast that most players seem to ignore... but not you. You wanna try it out, and I don't blame ya at all. >:D

** This guide will cover every aspect of frost, hopefully well, so find the section that interests you... and learn up on why ice blue is the new black. **


---THE FROST DEEPS SECTION---

The talent tree?

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVZGMxtIxdRhoVosx
Straight from Elitist Jerks. Testing to be the best for deeps atm. If raiding is your main goal... use this.

The EJ forums has been testing a new rotation... so now there seems to be 2 to work with...



Using either rotation should be fine, I'll try to keep updated if one clearly pulls ahead of the other.

With 'Blood of the North', this is your best bet... Howling Blast if you want to hit a few things instead of a Obliterate. Use HB whenever you can if the proc from Rime is up, waiting until the part of the rotation when you would be Frost Strike spamming. "Freezing Fog" is the proc you're looking for.

Keep both Frost Fever, AND Blood Plague up at all times.

(side note: some are saying IT first, then PS... but I'm trusting the EJ thread on DK DPS (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36303-dps_compendium/) and they mention PS first... I doubt the difference is anything signifigant though)

-- I don't like that build, what else ya got? --

Well... this is a touchy topic. I'll probably make some example builds though at some point... but instead...

I'll just run down some talents I like or see being useful, and why. Modify that build I linked earlier to taste.

*BLOOD*
-Scent of Blood: I like this for leveling, especially if you find yourself tanking runs while you level. Extra RP in a tree that makes such great use of it (Frost Strike) does speed up leveling a bit, and unlike Bladed Armor, works the same regardless of gear. Almost of no help doing dps in a instance run though.
-Rune Tap (and improved): Eliminates any downtime you'll ever see as Frost, and becomes a 3rd tanking cooldown for those who tank while leveling. DPS in instances makes use of this since it does give your healer a break, at the cost of some of your dps (Rune Tap =/= Death Runes, so using Blood Tap helps lessen the blow to your dps, and your rotation)
-Death Rune Mastery: Gives you more Death Runes during a normal rotation, which in turn gives you more pure Frost Runes. Useful if you tend to over-pull, as more Frost Runes = more Chains of Ice. Not highly recommended though; if you can't see the use for it without me telling you, it's probably not worth it.

*FROST*
-Endless Winter: Makes your Mind Freeze FREE, and since it's off the GCD... available ANY TIME you need it. Also adds Frost Fever to Chains of Ice... which is both good and bad. Bad as in if you tend to Chains of Ice mobs that are getting a CC to give the CC-er more time, the disease will break it. Good in that it puts Frost Fever on a mob, so for 2 mob pulls you don't have to use Pestilence to make Howling Blast work to full power on both mobs (CoI, switch to other mob, PS-IT-BS-BS-Blood Tap, HB, FS spam... then just start at rotation #1 listed above) so that's useful mainly to tanks or while leveling... since full rotations barely ever happen on regular mobs. Also makes CoI build a smidge of threat via disease damage if your tanking.
-Chillblains: Makes your IT and CoI snare 30% which is great if you world pvp, or hate running mobs chaining more groups. Also counts as a snare for Glyph of Blood Strike.
-Frost Aura: Debatable usefulness, but above 75 resistance crosses the first barrier of stacking spell resistance, so its moderately noticable.
-Hungering Cold: More of a note then anything, but aside from o-sh*t moments... this isn't that great for anything besides pvp. Just my take on it. Steep RP cost, and its basically a aoe Blind (rogue ability I'm sure most of you know and... 'love'). Kind of useful, but not worth other things you could be building towards while leveling.

*UNHOLY*
**Side note: I wouldn't take anything in this tree if your focusing on dps, unless you want to cross-spec for the pet to level with. This will drop some dps though, but makes leveling faster via chain pulling.
-Epidemic: If you can handle it, and plan on going deeper into the tree then this, this talent lets your #2 rotation change to OB x3 - FS spam. Hard to manage though, and if you don't plan on going deeper into the tree, the talent doesn't justify the cost.
-Virulence: Affects Icy Touch and Howling Blast for the spell hit.
-Blood-Caked Blade: More RNG white damage... helps a lot if your going further in the tree, and since it's damage that does itself, makes things a little easier if you get overwhelmed playing your DK. Good dps choice if your going this far into Unholy either way.
-Dirge: More RP is always fun, but I would HEAVILY suggest getting some Runic Power Mastery. You will be capping 100 RP often if you don't at least cap it to 120.
-Master of Ghouls: If you went this far, DO NOT GO ANY FURTHER! Good talent, and should be the only real reason your cross-speccing into Unholy. Useful with Chillblains (tell your ghoul charge off to a mob, IT it and pull aggro... it's snared 30% worth, gives you more time before it arrives, while your pet dps's it) and the ghoul's stun ability is useful for leveling/tanking. Don't be lazy though and manually control this pet! It's only worth its weight if you're making him start the next pull while you finish the current one.

"No Death and Decay/Blood boil/Pestilence in your rotation?"

Deeps wise, it isn't better then Blood Strike... and it can fudge up your rotation. This is deeps though, so I mean, use Pestilence to spread Frost Fever for a Deathchill Howling Blast (great for tanking btw). Doing that is only really useful on trash if your not tanking... and might pull aggro if you make use of it, since Howling Blasts crit upward of 2500 in the early 70s.

"Rune strike?"
Whenever you can... always. Save for the Frost Strike spam phase if you can though. :D

"2H or Dual wield?"
Short answer: 2H always.
Long answer: If you want to DW, there is ONE spec for you.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfV0VZG0ethxdRhoZfM0hxco
Switch some points if you like... this is the Frost FAQ though, not tri-spec. ;D

"What stats does Frost Deeps value?"

Strength, attack power, crit, hit are you main ones. Haste doesn't scale well, nor does armor ignore. Expertise is decent, but I'd focus on the others... since a chuck of your damage is in fact spells, so no dodges/parries to worry about.

"Glyphs?"

Icy Touch and Obliterate for sure. Rest aren't important enough to really worry about. Plague strike to maximize deeps though I suppose.

"When to Deathchill as Deeps?"

Whenever you like. Useful for a aoe pull, since a DC'd Howling Blast crits every target... but use on Obliterate or Frost Strike otherwise (before hitting 80, Frost Strike tends to hit harder then Obliterate, so that's my preference. Test with Recount to see what works for you.)

---THE FROST TANK SECTION---

Example trees:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGxxthcbohRVosx0g
Good if you do NOT have a windfury totem. Suggested.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcEZGxxzhed0hRVosx0g
Good if you have a windfury totem. Suggested.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xbZGxxtGcdoGRVostcr
Build I personally like for leveling as a tank. Hungering Cold is a okay emergency CC, Endless Winter to interrupt your own spells if needed, more RP generation, 120 RP cap if you end up being lazy about using RP, and less Death and Decay cooldown. More options here, especially if you tend to PUG, and especially if said PUGs tend to suck at following dps orders.

"Which of those builds is right for me at end-game?"
It's all based on the likelihood of you having a Windfury totem for your group. Odds are you will have a windfury available in 25 man raids... so if that's your focus I would avoid Icy Talons. For mainly a 5-man tank, I would almost for sure get that talent series. 10 mans are up in the air, but personally... if I wasn't garunteed a windfury totem, I'd spec Icy talons for the raid.



Notes on tanking, based on my personal experiences:

-I personally don't use Death and Decay that often. BIG pulls I consider it... but for 2-3 mobs, the runes are put to better use in the from of a Pestilence/Howling Blast IMO. It generates not only more damage, but equal-ish threat if you got a reasonable hit (Death and Decay I think is more though)... and if you need Death and Decay, it isn't on cooldown. Do not take that as law... it's just my observations so far. But it is a good move for generating threat, so try out both openering and see what works better for you. The more mobs, the more Death and Decay is appealing to me.

-IT->PS->PEST->HB->BB is a good opener for most situations if you aren't into/aren't using Death and Decay.

-When tanking, mark targets for a Deeps order. When you see the current target nearing death, burn some RP on the NEXT target, so you're ahead of the curve threat wise. The Deeps will kill in your order... doesn't mean you hafta tank in that order.

-IMO, Glyph for Icebound Fortitude, Pestilence, Dark Command, Raise Ghoul (the minor one), Blood Tap, and Icy Touch. They work well for frost tanking. Adjust to taste, that's the set Ilike using though.

-If you see yourself having trouble aggro wise, use Death and Decay if you aren't... be on your toes for Dark Command and Death Grip. If you are having trouble surviving the immediate pull, Chains of Ice a hard hitting mob and get him CC'd (can't have Endless Winter for this)... or at the very least just kite the group backward. It will take the mob time to reach you, effectively reducing damage taken in. Be ready to taunt it if the healer pulls it though.

-Some Death and Decay notes: Plant where you will tank the mobs... it's cost doesn't give you the chance to use it and kite mobs over it. Keep 'em in the area the whole time. **IF you or another DK in your group are using Death and Decay FOR DEEPS.. STOP! It's cost does NOT warrant the threat you are making, and it's dps is negligible at best if thats your role in the group.

It's not hard to get the feel for it, but tanking as frost isn't hit a button and relax... you gotta be on top of things. Your RP shouldn't ever get too high, and feel free to burn some of that on all the mobs evenly (FS tab FS for example). Do NOT be afraid to use your CDs... but try to not burn them ALL unless it's a really bad o-sh*t moment. Even if the situation isn't that bad, helping your healer out with a quick IB or UA is always a good thing to do (avoid using Lichborne for this though, the cooldown is a little long to warrant that kind of use).

Any further concerns and I'll be glad to help out... just speak up :D

---FROST PVPZ SECTION---

To be announced at a later date. I'm not 80 yet so.... yea....

Some speculation notes though!

-I personally like Imp. Rune Tap for PvP. It's a 20% heal on a 30 second cd, that uses runes that are secondary for your build. Did I mention you can get Hungering Cold AND Imp. Rune tap in the same build?

-If your fighting a healer, let your RP build... then burn it ALL once it cracks 100+! Frost strike ignores armor.. so that's some serious burn some healers won't see coming/won't keep up with. Combo with stagulate/interrupts/death grip for results. HoTs don't repair massive burst, they WILL need a hard-cast.... so be ready to stop it 7 ways from Sunday. >:D

Don't be afraid to kite pets with CoI either! Any class DEPENDANT on them will lose enough deeps to make it worth the 1 frost rune... plus, I believe it's no diminishing returns vs pets... since they aren't players. ;)

Just try things out, the build I plan on trying out for 80 PvP is...
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2300321133000000000000000003252500132502102321035101301000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=131003060501

Gotta test and figure things out though... my focus is 2v2 arena, so that + frost mage is seeming very win to me. <3

---END NOTES---

Don't be afraid to give all the specs a try, or even fiddle around some points in the specs. DKs are still WAY new, so nothing is set in stone. Ask questions if you got them... I'm sure there are plenty of helpful DKs on these boards to help you out.

Frost questions or concerns? Ask right here in this thread, or PM me.
Any other questions? I learned all the basics... I can TRY to help, but let's keep this thread frosty :D So PM or make a new topic... I troll enough, along with others... we'll get to you. Promise.

Now stop reading and go level. Expansions out, what are you doing NOT playing it? XD



edit: 12-07-08: big update to deeps section, small update to tanking section... thanks for input guys ;)


Edited, Dec 7th 2008 1:58am by mongoosexcore

Edited, Dec 7th 2008 2:04am by mongoosexcore

Edited, Dec 11th 2008 5:01pm by mongoosexcore

I'm thinking because he made the builds for level 60, and you'll be getting Tundra Stalker, Toughness, Anticipation, and Frigid Deathplate with the next 20 talent points

re-layed out, big update, covers everything frost now, so feel free to give it a lookie loo

;)

but see, it really doesnt matter

glacier rot makes IT do more damage if the target is diseased, which PS would trigger

blood plague is better damage then FF from what i know, and actually all the EJ posts say to PS first

but with IT being first, i havent noticed a severe dps change either way

honestly not enough to really change nothing i believe

as long as both are up at all times, your set either way... leading with one over the other isnt gonna change a whole hell of a lot... but im pretty sure going PS->IT is slightly better dps wise, since your IT hits harder then your PS

and 10% would go on either spell, might as well add 10% to the better one, ya?


Edited, Nov 24th 2008 5:15pm by mongoosexcore

the only difference itll make is on the very first hit... cuz after that both diseases should be up whenever u use either ability

seems like a minimal difference

but EJ says PS first

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t36303-dps_compendium/

and ill trust their word, cuz it makes sense to me.... run some numbers and prove me wrong and ill gladly change it :D

i just honestly doubt that PS, being as weak as it is, having a bonus 30% (tundra stalker+glyph) damage for your opening hit outpaces +10% damage on icy touch (from glacier rot)

Edited, Nov 24th 2008 7:21pm by mongoosexcore

They must have changed it since the last time I looked at it. Meh. Either way, yes, it makes more sense for personal DPS to open with PS in order to get the damage bonus for IT since that hits much harder when you're Frost. However, I'd say you should still open with IT in all instances other than soloing to get Imp. Icy Talons up ASAP for your party/raid unless there is a Shaman present.

Can we get this stickied? It would be nice to have a FAQ for each tree. Good work Mongoose.

You shouldn't, actually. Frost Knights spend all their time trying to convert Blood Runes into Death Runes so they can use more FU's anyways, so turning FU's into Death Runes is redundant. And that's why you won't find that recommended anywhere; not here, not on EJ, not anywhere other than Moongoose's own personal build, as far as I know. And that's why you would take it; it's a personal preferance.

preference is indeed the culprit

since oblit is indeed our main use of FU runes (howling blast mostly is reserved just for rime procs), youll be floating in death runes all day if you take it

now, in particular, a lot of people (myself included) tend to pull sloppy and/or like to have things ready for o-sh*t moments

if your rocking 6 death runes, you get utility... not the most noticable utility, but utility nonetheless

instance wise, having upto and including 6 chains of ice, is useful emergency CC

healer pulled aggro on multiple mobs? CoI all of them, they are snared... tank has time to pick up aggro (or you have time to reapply more CoI)

"but but but death grip!" - has a CD, and thats 1 mob onry... you got taunt too, but CoI = no one is taking melee damage

soloing wise, you can take your sweet *** time with bad pulls against strong mobs.... you will have plenty of death runes to, at ANY time, CoI.. kite kite kite, wait for rune tap or a CD or whatever you want, then re-enter the fray

pvp wise, ganking is furious in northrend... you get snared? he lacks AMZ? CoI->ITx5 = great ranged damage that non-healers might not have be able to survive (i usually get 600 a hit, 1200 on crit? so thats a few thousand pretty easy)

would i say its the best option? meh... for leveling i like it... you can level 0/0/0, having more options is always something i liked

its not so much i take it for more blood attacks, its so i would have more pure frost attacks more readily available (proper rotations using BotN = no death runes half the time.... proper rotation with BotN AND DRM = at least 2-4 death runes at any given time)

edited the section with that build in frost dps to reflect this point, thanks for feedback guys




me too, but i wouldnt suggest it to others

with OUT endless winter, in a instance run, you can be nice and CoI a CC target, give your tank a much easier time getting aggro while avoiding breaking the cc if its done late

if you GET endless winter, that CoI would cause a disease... breaks most cc

and since most the cc i run with seems to have left their reaction times in their beds... its a nice trick to use lol

but i gotta say, if you get endless winter... be nice to frost mages or if you glyphed your blood strike

pop 1 point minimum into making your frost fever snare

that chilled does count for anything a frost mage likes, and its a snare if you glyphed blood strike (free 20% dmg on a move you use often... i glyphed it to play with it, its useful enough where i aint lookin to replace until 80)

Edited, Nov 29th 2008 11:54pm by mongoosexcore

no no, uhh damn its harder to explain on the internet then my head lol

with botn:

PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> OB -> FS (2 death runes here)
PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> FS (0 death runes here)

with botn and drm:

PS -> IT -> BS -> BS -> OB -> FS (4 death runes here)
PS -> IT -> OB -> OB -> FS (2-4 death runes here, unsure of how it would prioritize... but im pretty sure 4)

so at any point, i can IT spam or CoI or whatever, not just the top half of the cycle

ya know? kinda?

not that im tryin to convince you, i know you like full-on performance over shenanagans.... i just like havin my options that have indeed saved wipes before :D and chance to save wipe always beats out 3% crit to me when im pugging dungeons while i level

theres too many terrible puggers right now to put faith in them before heroics and naxx lol

Edited, Nov 30th 2008 4:06am by mongoosexcore

If you're making a frost FAQ, really the main thing you want in it is this build, which is currently the max frost DPS build.

I may do more FAQ writing once I get a grasp on the whole "tanking" thing.

Though of course we could always have one FAQ for DPS and one for tanking.

Thanks Mongoose - I kinda figured the addition of Death Rune Mastery was for utility, it certainly doesnt have any DPS value. I dont play on a PVP server, so I havent found the need for such utility while levelling, but while levelling I think it is fair enough to choose utility over dps (to a degree).

Perhaps rather than take your build out, you could distinguish more clearly between the optimal DPS build and a possible levelling build, where you could explain why you choose utility over DPS. Your setup does make them appear to be somewhat equal - which wouldnt be true for DPS at 80. This might help people understand the different choices they have in Frost, while also highlighting the core DPS talents through the EJ build.


Looking at one of your Tank builds(with Icy Talons build). Would getting Deathchill for 1 point be better than getting Subversion with 3 points?

I realize Subversion will give more critical, 9% more critical on two moves we use alot, is better than a guaranteed critical every 2mins, but DKs generate decent threat, so I am not sure this loss would be a big problem. However, my thoughts for changing it are this:

With those 3 points you could grab Deathchill for 1 and then Two-Handed Specialization for 2 points. Two-Hand has obvious merit. I like having Deathchill as a Tank because I can use it with Howling Blast, to generate some good AoE dmg/threat. This is also under my control to be used when it is needed, unlike Subversion.

Finally, Frost Aura does not appear to stack with other resistance buffs, (shaman, hunter, druid buffs), but it does stack with Paladin's buff. Not sure what is going on here, but that might mean that Acclimation is a better investment than Frost Aura for resistance.

Anyhow, just more picking your brain from a fellow Frost DK.





Edited, Nov 30th 2008 2:50pm by StJust

For when you get around to another update, here is my PvP-oriented deep Frost build if you need some samples: Cooler than cool.