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To DW or not to DW.Follow
Basically creating this to see whom is going to DW and whom is going to use Two-Handers... What's the benefits/situations that require, say the DW or the 2H.
stick with 2h. I've explained why several times and don't wish to again.
There is only one real viable spec that using DW will benefit from and that involves spreading your talent points across all 3 trees. So you're basically mediocre in 3 talents without having the ability to take advantage of some of the better talents that lie deeper within a specific tree.
Dilbrt, I have not seen your explanation as to why 2-hand is favored over dual-wield. I would like to read that information, can you possibly let me know what thread it is in?
I was also under the impression that in the Frost tree, dual-wield was there for tanking aggro, possibly? Of course, it appears that I may be completely talking out my ***.
I have a Frost specced DK, and was curious as to whether to go dual-wield with him or not.
I was also under the impression that in the Frost tree, dual-wield was there for tanking aggro, possibly? Of course, it appears that I may be completely talking out my ***.
I have a Frost specced DK, and was curious as to whether to go dual-wield with him or not.
The only reason I'll reply to that is because I woke up early to try to work on stuff, only to forget it was tuesday and the servers were down. All you would have to do is google DW vs. 2h DK and you'll come up with a ton of literature on the subject. Why should you not DW? OK here we go.
A.) DWing really only increases white damage, white damage is a small part (30% or less) of DK dps.
B.) Any ability that reads "X% weapon damage plus" will do more damage with a 2h 100% of the time. Nearly every ability DKs have is based off of weapon damage. There are 3 exceptions: Blood Caked Blade, Necrosis, and Killing Machine. Those are the only 3 talents in any tree that benefit more from DWing than 2h
C.) If tanking, you have to deal with parry hasting the boss "Well what about expertise Dilbert, you can negate the boss parry!" True, but while you're stacking expertise, I'll be stacking other stats like mitigation or health.
D.) The only situation that I have ever seen where DW has come CLOSE to beating 2h has been when you have been fighting a ton of different mobs and you get lots of KM procs and just howling blast yourself crazy. It has never done more single-target, ever. That means you can do more on raid trash that doesn't matter much (how many go mostly afk during trash, I know I do and I was the raid leader) or you can do more against the boss when it really matters.
Yes you CAN Dual-wierd. Yes it does enough to be within 5-10% of someone using a 2h. No it will never pass them. They intentionally designed the class so that DW does not surpass 2h in any way so that the majority of DKs stick to 2h. Do you want to know Blizzard's mindset on DW vs. 2h? Here:
That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make. Forgive me if I wasn't clear. Our intent is for DKs to tank with two-handed dps weapons. However, because we allow DKs to DW we know there will be motivation to try and DW two one-handed tanking weapons to stack mitigation stats. I'm not sure if that's a good idea if many bosses continue to parry. Nevertheless, if we find all DK tanks DW then we'll make changes to make 2H more viable.
DW should be as equal to 2H as swords are to axes (for a DK without racial weapon benefits).
Edited because I like this quote too:
A.) DWing really only increases white damage, white damage is a small part (30% or less) of DK dps.
B.) Any ability that reads "X% weapon damage plus" will do more damage with a 2h 100% of the time. Nearly every ability DKs have is based off of weapon damage. There are 3 exceptions: Blood Caked Blade, Necrosis, and Killing Machine. Those are the only 3 talents in any tree that benefit more from DWing than 2h
C.) If tanking, you have to deal with parry hasting the boss "Well what about expertise Dilbert, you can negate the boss parry!" True, but while you're stacking expertise, I'll be stacking other stats like mitigation or health.
D.) The only situation that I have ever seen where DW has come CLOSE to beating 2h has been when you have been fighting a ton of different mobs and you get lots of KM procs and just howling blast yourself crazy. It has never done more single-target, ever. That means you can do more on raid trash that doesn't matter much (how many go mostly afk during trash, I know I do and I was the raid leader) or you can do more against the boss when it really matters.
Yes you CAN Dual-wierd. Yes it does enough to be within 5-10% of someone using a 2h. No it will never pass them. They intentionally designed the class so that DW does not surpass 2h in any way so that the majority of DKs stick to 2h. Do you want to know Blizzard's mindset on DW vs. 2h? Here:
Ghostcrawler wrote:
This is a controversial topic that seems to bleed over into every thread, so in a desperate attempt to contain it, I'll start this new thread to focus on the topic.
The design is that the death knight can dual-wield or use a two-hander. I know not everyone agrees with that design, and you are certainly welcome to debate it in this thread. My suspicion is that most DKs will use the larger weapons, since a certain famous rune weapon is a two-hander, and just because it fits the kit for a lot of people. But we aren't trying to specifically punish or promote one-handed weapons either.
The design is that neither wins out and becomes the obvious choice. We are trying to do that in part because it's so rare. All rogues DW, but no paladin does. All Fury warriors DW, but no Arms warrior does. We have sprinkled the trees with talents that benefit one system or the other. Typically, dual wielding eventually wins out, damage-wise, over two-hander use. As such we can't promote DW too much or it will dominate.
Tanking is a special concern. It is NOT the design that all death knights dual-wield when tanking. There is probably a slight motivation to do so because faster swings can be useful for generating early threat, and because you can stack mitigation by choosing two tanking weapons, which are all one-handed. Working against that is the parry counterattack of most bosses, which works against dual-wielding. We do have some knobs to turn here, such as making the parry rune enchant benefit two-handed style more than one-handed style. This is something we are going to keep a very close eye on. Again, the design is that both styles are equally useful.
The design is that the death knight can dual-wield or use a two-hander. I know not everyone agrees with that design, and you are certainly welcome to debate it in this thread. My suspicion is that most DKs will use the larger weapons, since a certain famous rune weapon is a two-hander, and just because it fits the kit for a lot of people. But we aren't trying to specifically punish or promote one-handed weapons either.
The design is that neither wins out and becomes the obvious choice. We are trying to do that in part because it's so rare. All rogues DW, but no paladin does. All Fury warriors DW, but no Arms warrior does. We have sprinkled the trees with talents that benefit one system or the other. Typically, dual wielding eventually wins out, damage-wise, over two-hander use. As such we can't promote DW too much or it will dominate.
Tanking is a special concern. It is NOT the design that all death knights dual-wield when tanking. There is probably a slight motivation to do so because faster swings can be useful for generating early threat, and because you can stack mitigation by choosing two tanking weapons, which are all one-handed. Working against that is the parry counterattack of most bosses, which works against dual-wielding. We do have some knobs to turn here, such as making the parry rune enchant benefit two-handed style more than one-handed style. This is something we are going to keep a very close eye on. Again, the design is that both styles are equally useful.
Ghostcrawler wrote:
Quote:
GCs post just confirms everyone's suspicion that they allowed us to dual wield because its easier to share dual tanking weapons than make tanking 2 handers.
That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make. Forgive me if I wasn't clear. Our intent is for DKs to tank with two-handed dps weapons. However, because we allow DKs to DW we know there will be motivation to try and DW two one-handed tanking weapons to stack mitigation stats. I'm not sure if that's a good idea if many bosses continue to parry. Nevertheless, if we find all DK tanks DW then we'll make changes to make 2H more viable.
DW should be as equal to 2H as swords are to axes (for a DK without racial weapon benefits).
Edited because I like this quote too:
Quote:
Again, I don't have any problem with there being a dual wield capability for DKs. I just don't want to ever have to dual wield to stay competitive. I want to stick with 2 handers
Thank you, very informative.
I know this is going to sound stupid, but this post or the whole Duals vs 2Handers topic/post list should be stickied somewhere or put into a DK FAQ. I see A LOT of posts about this and hear A LOT of DK's asking in game about this as well. It really is a simple answer to a simple question and I know I am thankful to people like Dilbrt for taking the time answering the same question over and over.
On a side note, I tried dual wielding on my Blood spec'ed DK this morning for leveling(i am only 65)(just 2 cheap greens I snapped off the AH) and it was ok, but I really missed seeing the big numbers coming off my 2hander. It was definitely slower as well. On one mob there was not a huge difference, but when I had 2 on me, it was really noticeable how much longer I was taking to drop that first mob, and my specials were just not doing the damage I was used to seeing. First time I played a character that CAN dual wield but actually felt that it was not good for me.
On a side note, I tried dual wielding on my Blood spec'ed DK this morning for leveling(i am only 65)(just 2 cheap greens I snapped off the AH) and it was ok, but I really missed seeing the big numbers coming off my 2hander. It was definitely slower as well. On one mob there was not a huge difference, but when I had 2 on me, it was really noticeable how much longer I was taking to drop that first mob, and my specials were just not doing the damage I was used to seeing. First time I played a character that CAN dual wield but actually felt that it was not good for me.
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