http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000001403250500015200000000000052302512033302302105001000
The above link is a pvp spec I've been working on. I've got a level 70 Bloodelf Paladin on Ravenholdt.
I've been gone from the game since April, but this spec was working well for me at that level for pvp. Fear, stun, slowing, ensaring, attacks were all reduced for me. Reckoning helped me deal good amounts of damage. I was tough to bring down in most one on one fights (my favorite kind of play). I usually won battles and if I lost, I always managed to drag the fight on until the bitter end.
Just before I left the game (went back to school) Some guy in WSG told me my spec sucked. I told him it worked fine for me in the past, and that I was happy with it. Whatever, now that I can place 10 more talents into the trees, I can finally get Crusader Strike at 80.
What do you think of my spec? Good defense and good offense. I can't wait to buy the game and put this to the test. Any one have any constructive critisim? The guy I mentioned before said the spec sucked and called me a *** or something, I'm looking for a real critique though.
This spec is for PVP. Thanks!
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Ret/Prot build. Reckoning/Crusader StrikeFollow
If it works for you, there's no need to listen to people who say your spec sucks. There's no rule saying you have to conform to the min-max spec of the month.
That said, using a standard lv 80 pvp build will let you do more damage with better survivability. But it would be a totally different style of play, and i'd certainly like to see a pally proc reckoning with a big 2-hander and spamming crusader strike!
This is my planned build for lv 80 pvp btw: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000053223003000000000000000502300512003312302135201351
Edit: Stoicism might look useless with Divine Purpose in the same build, but it makes all my offensive debuffs harder to remove. That's stuff like the righteous vengeance DoT, judgements etc. It also includes the HoT effect from sheath of light. And it'll give me a chance not to lose Divine Shield/Avenging Wrath to a disc. priest. It's an arena spec, not a happy-smashy BG spec.
Edited, Nov 16th 2008 4:42pm by ArtemisEnteri
That said, using a standard lv 80 pvp build will let you do more damage with better survivability. But it would be a totally different style of play, and i'd certainly like to see a pally proc reckoning with a big 2-hander and spamming crusader strike!
This is my planned build for lv 80 pvp btw: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?tal=000000000000000000000000000053223003000000000000000502300512003312302135201351
Edit: Stoicism might look useless with Divine Purpose in the same build, but it makes all my offensive debuffs harder to remove. That's stuff like the righteous vengeance DoT, judgements etc. It also includes the HoT effect from sheath of light. And it'll give me a chance not to lose Divine Shield/Avenging Wrath to a disc. priest. It's an arena spec, not a happy-smashy BG spec.
Edited, Nov 16th 2008 4:42pm by ArtemisEnteri
8 posts
Your build in a sense is like mine. Offensive orientated with a defensive backdrop. I figured reckoning for pallys is the closest to windfury for a shaman. I guess I'm banking more on procs and cooldowns for high damage outputs rather than a sustained damage output. If any class can do this well, than it's the pally. Plate along side a few talents in damage reducing, trap resisting, and armour increasing abilities can help you survive long enough for big damage out puts to pop.
I don't think stoicism is useless with divine purpose! The ability to break free or resist traps and slowing spells is one of the most important abilities in the game, especially for close range fighters like us. Mages and hunters rely on this abilities to take you down, and rogues use them just before they /sprint /vanish. I see you're not into BG mashing, but your spec would rule for running the flags in WSG and EOS.
Basically, I'm using the Paladins innate surviablity, then some, and using this to help strectch the battle out so my Crusader strike/reckonings can cut down the opponent. I'm not sure if this spec will hold well at 80, but I'm dieing to find out.
I don't think stoicism is useless with divine purpose! The ability to break free or resist traps and slowing spells is one of the most important abilities in the game, especially for close range fighters like us. Mages and hunters rely on this abilities to take you down, and rogues use them just before they /sprint /vanish. I see you're not into BG mashing, but your spec would rule for running the flags in WSG and EOS.
Basically, I'm using the Paladins innate surviablity, then some, and using this to help strectch the battle out so my Crusader strike/reckonings can cut down the opponent. I'm not sure if this spec will hold well at 80, but I'm dieing to find out.
Ludlow wrote:
Just before I left the game (went back to school) Some guy in WSG told me my spec sucked.
He sounds like an ***.
Ludlow wrote:
What do you think of my spec? Good defense and good offense.
With the build you posted, you are going to have lower offense AND lower defense than a standard build. Your build has poor mana longevity, lower damage than it should, low healing potential, and is missing some necessary talents.
Ludlow wrote:
Any one have any constructive critisim? The guy I mentioned before said the spec sucked and called me a *** or something, I'm looking for a real critique though.
Please take this as constructive, as I'm not trying to pick on you or flame you.
A few high points in the talents.
Protection
- Missing
- Improved Hammer of Justice - If you're going this deep, 30 seconds off of your only Stun/Interrupt is essential.
- Improved Righteous Fury - take the points out of Anticipation and put them down here. 6% damage reduction will do much more for you than 3% dodge
- Divine Strength - 15% strength is a decent self-buff
- Questionable
- Anticipation - OK, but in PVP does not affect spells or attacks from behind. Talent points could be better spent
- Blessing of Sanctuary - OK, but prevents you from getting Divine Storm. Does add some survivability at least.
- Reckoning - At first glance this seems to be a good talent, but you're overselling it. With a slow 2H weapon (Ret pally bread and butter) you're going to normally be getting 2 extra attacks in 8 seconds if/when it procs. Divine Storm is guaranteed to add one extra attack over the same time, works regardless of if you have someone attacking you, and only costs one talent point.
Retribution
- Missing
- Judgements of the Wise - Not open to debate. This talent is the cornerstone of Ret mana management.
- Sheath of Light - If you're putting points into Art of War, you may as well add some power behind those instant Flash of Lights.
- Sanctified Wrath - Shorter CD and penetration for Avenging Wrath. Almost guaranteed crits of HoW.
- Divine Storm - An extra attack to add to your damage cycle, and healing for yourself and your party.
Reckoning is nice, but I think you're overvaluing it. I personally think that something like this would up your DPS, probably up your survivability, and add more utility for your team in PVP. Probably not the "ideal" Ret build, but a lot closer than what you've got.
Ludlow wrote:
Your build in a sense is like mine. Offensive orientated with a defensive backdrop.
His build packs significantly more offense and slightly more defense than yours.
Ludlow wrote:
Basically, I'm using the Paladins innate surviablity, then some, and using this to help strectch the battle out so my Crusader strike/reckonings can cut down the opponent
The problem is that when you reduce your DPS by as much as you are, you make it too easy to heal through your damage. I see what you're trying to do, but you're giving up too many good Retribution talents to get Sanctuary (debatable), Reckoning (meh), and Sacred Duty (again, meh). This doesn't mean that you won't be able to contribute in BGs with your build, but you could definitely bring a lot more to the table if you changed up your spec.
EDIT: Clarity
Edited, Nov 16th 2008 6:48pm by tabstopper
8 posts
Thanks for the comments! Last time I played, reckoning was procing almost every time I battled. My damage out put was good when it did, but like you said I wasn't dealing high damage consistently, my battles were never short when fighting equal oppenents.
I get what you're saying. I had a suspicion that the build was far from ideal because not many pallys spec into prot for reckoning, then dump the rest in Ret. LOL, I thought I was on to something.
I still don't see how my surviabilty would increase though. I guess more damage output would force oppenets to heal or flee. One thing about my build was the ability to break free or resist most CC attacks. My surviability was greater than my damage out put, which is why I could stretch my battles out longer and rely on reckoning.
Mana drain is actually one problem I had. I always had a stack of mana pots on me. With my build at 70, I rarely had much mana by the end of the fight, self healing drained it bad.
Your comment was helpful thanks a ton!
I get what you're saying. I had a suspicion that the build was far from ideal because not many pallys spec into prot for reckoning, then dump the rest in Ret. LOL, I thought I was on to something.
I still don't see how my surviabilty would increase though. I guess more damage output would force oppenets to heal or flee. One thing about my build was the ability to break free or resist most CC attacks. My surviability was greater than my damage out put, which is why I could stretch my battles out longer and rely on reckoning.
Mana drain is actually one problem I had. I always had a stack of mana pots on me. With my build at 70, I rarely had much mana by the end of the fight, self healing drained it bad.
Your comment was helpful thanks a ton!
Ludlow wrote:
I still don't see how my surviabilty would increase though.
Gain
3/3 Righteous Fury - 6% damage reduction (all damage)
3/3 Improved Hammer of Justice - Stun CD reduced from 60 seconds to 30 seconds (stunned opponent deals no damage, making you easier to heal, him easier to kill, and giving you an extra interrupt against casters)
3/3 Sheath of Light - 30% of AP as spellpower means you will be getting a LOT of +heals on your flash of lights. With 1500 AP, you gain +500 spellpower -- hardly insignificant.
1/1 Divine Storm - Does damage, but heals you based on damage dealt.
3/3 Judgements of the Wise - Allows you to sustain your mana for longer. An OOM Paladin is typically a dead (or at least ineffective) Paladin.
Lose
6% armor and 5% dodge (IMO ~balanced by gaining 6% flat damage reduction, including spelldmg)
2/2 Sacred Duty - Mainly useful for reducing bubble recast 1 min, you do lose some surivability here
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary - You lose some survivability by dropping this
Overall, I think you gain more than you lose, but you're probably fairly close in terms of overall survivability between the two.
There is, though, the old adage that the best defense is a good offense. While you gain only a little direct survivability, you gain TONS of mana regen, spellpower, and burst damage potential, making you a much bigger and nastier threat on the battlefield.
Ludlow wrote:
One thing about my build was the ability to break free or resist most CC attacks.
Should be largely intact.
Ludlow wrote:
Mana drain is actually one problem I had. I always had a stack of mana pots on me.
You can only use one potion per battle now (if you missed that change), so inherent mana regen is much more important.
Ludlow wrote:
my battles were never short when fighting equal oppenents.
At 70, you should be able to most equally geared players as Ret ... IF you can get to them. Most classes should not turn into a battle of attrition unless they can kite you or just heal through your damage.
The talents at the end of the ret tree are why everyone is calling retadins overpowered.
Sheath of light makes your healing spells very powerful, especially with the art of war. Every time divine storm, crusader strike or a judgement crits, the instant flash of light will heal you for well over 1k damage. If i bubble and cast holy light and it crits, it will *completely heal me over 12 seconds*. It'll crit for roughly 6.5k, and then another 3900 over 12 seconds. All thanks to one talent. Basically, i can do more healing per second than most people you meet in a BG can do dps, that's where all your survivability is =P
Divine storm is another auto-attack sized hit every 10 seconds that heals you. If i'm running the flag in WSG and a warlock or hunter has their pet sicced on me, casting divine storm and judgement while still running for the flag room will heal me, and proc Art of War instant heals.
Righteous Vengeance....the DoT effect stacks. It's insane damage. Also: haha rogues, haha.
Sanctified wrath is just monstrous. When AW is active you ignore 50% of all mitigation effects, and hammer of wrath has something like an 88% crit chance at all times.
Judgements of the Wise is just essential, you take much longer to go OOM which is fatal in pvp. 3 points in that frees up 5 from Benediction too. 30 second CD on hammer of justice with the glyph that makes it 7 seconds? PLUS repentence? Just try out a standard ret build for a bit, i think you'll never go back!
edit: the extra spellpower from Sheath of Light adds directly to damage done by judgements, hammer of wrath, holy wrath and exorcism.....
Edited, Nov 16th 2008 9:55pm by ArtemisEnteri
Sheath of light makes your healing spells very powerful, especially with the art of war. Every time divine storm, crusader strike or a judgement crits, the instant flash of light will heal you for well over 1k damage. If i bubble and cast holy light and it crits, it will *completely heal me over 12 seconds*. It'll crit for roughly 6.5k, and then another 3900 over 12 seconds. All thanks to one talent. Basically, i can do more healing per second than most people you meet in a BG can do dps, that's where all your survivability is =P
Divine storm is another auto-attack sized hit every 10 seconds that heals you. If i'm running the flag in WSG and a warlock or hunter has their pet sicced on me, casting divine storm and judgement while still running for the flag room will heal me, and proc Art of War instant heals.
Righteous Vengeance....the DoT effect stacks. It's insane damage. Also: haha rogues, haha.
Sanctified wrath is just monstrous. When AW is active you ignore 50% of all mitigation effects, and hammer of wrath has something like an 88% crit chance at all times.
Judgements of the Wise is just essential, you take much longer to go OOM which is fatal in pvp. 3 points in that frees up 5 from Benediction too. 30 second CD on hammer of justice with the glyph that makes it 7 seconds? PLUS repentence? Just try out a standard ret build for a bit, i think you'll never go back!
edit: the extra spellpower from Sheath of Light adds directly to damage done by judgements, hammer of wrath, holy wrath and exorcism.....
Edited, Nov 16th 2008 9:55pm by ArtemisEnteri
something to consider:
Ret playstyle is very different than it was. if you dont stack your burst you will get kited by almost every class. i guarantee you will spend most of your time at 80 trying to get in melee range.
the OPs spec is built for duelling in the BGs and being a distraction. other than that its not really good for anything. i'd Repent him and chase the flag runner. in arena you wouldn't need to so many stun/fear blockers since you'd have a healer.
Divine Storm: not only is this one of our most powerful abilities now...but its also a psuedo-ranged hit.
Eye for an Eye: ALL crits on you cause dmg. while being kited this is great. you can spam heal yourself while your enemy is killing himself. at lvl 80 the 'crit to resilience ratio' will be much greater than at lvl 70.
Ret playstyle is very different than it was. if you dont stack your burst you will get kited by almost every class. i guarantee you will spend most of your time at 80 trying to get in melee range.
the OPs spec is built for duelling in the BGs and being a distraction. other than that its not really good for anything. i'd Repent him and chase the flag runner. in arena you wouldn't need to so many stun/fear blockers since you'd have a healer.
Divine Storm: not only is this one of our most powerful abilities now...but its also a psuedo-ranged hit.
Eye for an Eye: ALL crits on you cause dmg. while being kited this is great. you can spam heal yourself while your enemy is killing himself. at lvl 80 the 'crit to resilience ratio' will be much greater than at lvl 70.
8 posts
By the sounds of it, we're pretty stacked for pvp then. I went to the blizzard forums, and word is Paladins are the only class that can handle DK's, along with warriors. Not sure how accurate that info is, but I'm stoked for decemeber 16! The day I can finally unfreeze my pally.
I think depend what spec they are. what you saying problem is true for unholy. My friend whom has 63 unholy dK says that he going to be death on pure casters such as mages & priest but have some problems against melee types rogues & fury warriors & ret pally.
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