Just trying to confirm which spells benefit from +holy, +spellpower and +spell crit (from INT)
Consecration - guessing +holy and +spellpower, and as far as i know theres no chance of a crit with it
seal righteousness - each hit of holy damage is increased based on spellpower (theres a formula, its complicated, based on weapon speed lol), no crit chances
judging righteousness - I guess the damage is increased through spellpower, but i dont know about the crit chance? I would hope it is increased through INT based crit..
seal command - based on AP only i believe, and melee crit (agi)
judgment of command - same as seal
......it seems that my question boils down to wether anyone knows if judging the seals of righteousness/light/wisdom/justice, damage and crit chance is based on spellpower and spell crit (int). Is seal of command the only one thats based on AP/agi?
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All seals and judgements do more damage based on your AP, and so does Consecration.
And I think all seal and judgement crit chances are based on melee crit.
And I think all seal and judgement crit chances are based on melee crit.
well righteousness used to always be based on spellpower... and the wowwiki says that is it based on spellpower too, if you look at the link i posted.
For instance seal of corruptions' power is based on a formula of (0.2*AP+0.2*SP) or something like that, those numbers are off the top of my head but that site definately says its a combination of AP and SP.
All judgement damage and crit chance being based solely on Melee AP and Crit is just plain silly surely! Anyone else out there know anything?
edit: from the wiki -
"Consecration deals 95.24% of bonus spell damage, distributed evenly among 8 seconds"
doesnt mention any bonus from AP whatsoever
seal of righteousness spellpower bonus - 9.2% per 1.0 weapon speed, One-handed Seal of Righteousness
10.8% per 1.0 weapon speed, Two-handed Seal of Righteousness
but i cant find any information on current judgement spells..
edit no.2 : from http://tyderiumsalts.blogspot.com/2008/08/more-wrath-paladin-stuff.html
The standard holy damage dealt by Judgement spells is 36% of attack power plus 58% of spell power; some seals may increase this amount.
Seems ive been answering my own questions lol ^^ and it also seems that it takes a combination of high AP and/or SP to get the most damage out of a paladins abilities
Edited, Nov 8th 2008 6:05pm by Niiru
Edited, Nov 8th 2008 6:15pm by Niiru
For instance seal of corruptions' power is based on a formula of (0.2*AP+0.2*SP) or something like that, those numbers are off the top of my head but that site definately says its a combination of AP and SP.
All judgement damage and crit chance being based solely on Melee AP and Crit is just plain silly surely! Anyone else out there know anything?
edit: from the wiki -
"Consecration deals 95.24% of bonus spell damage, distributed evenly among 8 seconds"
doesnt mention any bonus from AP whatsoever
seal of righteousness spellpower bonus - 9.2% per 1.0 weapon speed, One-handed Seal of Righteousness
10.8% per 1.0 weapon speed, Two-handed Seal of Righteousness
but i cant find any information on current judgement spells..
edit no.2 : from http://tyderiumsalts.blogspot.com/2008/08/more-wrath-paladin-stuff.html
The standard holy damage dealt by Judgement spells is 36% of attack power plus 58% of spell power; some seals may increase this amount.
Seems ive been answering my own questions lol ^^ and it also seems that it takes a combination of high AP and/or SP to get the most damage out of a paladins abilities
Edited, Nov 8th 2008 6:05pm by Niiru
Edited, Nov 8th 2008 6:15pm by Niiru
That info from wowwiki is old and outdated. Seals now do damage based on formulas that involves weapon speed, attack power and spell power. According to thottbot, the formula for Seal of Righteousness is as follows: (MWS*0.022*AP+0.044*SPH) where MWS=weapon speed; AP=Attack Power; SPH=spell power
Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, Judgements (I believe) all benefit from Attack Power as well as spell power. Check thottbot, they have the updated information in it.
No crit for consecration; Seal of Righteousness, however, can crit when you're swinging away with your weapon, and your judgements can also crit.
Consecration, Hammer of Wrath, Judgements (I believe) all benefit from Attack Power as well as spell power. Check thottbot, they have the updated information in it.
No crit for consecration; Seal of Righteousness, however, can crit when you're swinging away with your weapon, and your judgements can also crit.
yeh my edits said about our damage all being based on both AP and SP. Though i still wonder wether it is INT or AGI that improves the crit chance of our Judgments, and seal of righteousness swings (the holy part not the "white" melee part)
Quote:
Spell Coefficients
Ability
---------------------Base (at Max Rank)-----------Spellpower----------Attack Power
Notes
Holy Light--------------4888-5444 ---------------- +166% SP
Flash of Light-----------785-876 ----------------- +100% SP
Holy Shock (Damage)-----1296-1402 ----------------- +43% SP
Holy Shock (Heal)-------2401-2599 ----------------- +81% SP
Seal of Righteousness------------------------------- 5.5% SP ---------- +2.8% AP --- damage per second
Seal of Vengeance (1 stack)------------------------- 1.6% SP ---------- +3.2% AP --- per 3 seconds
Seal of Vengeance (5 Stack)------------------------- 8.0% SP --------- +16% AP --- per 3 seconds
Seal of Light--------------------------------------- 28% SP ---------- +28% AP
Judgement of Light Effect--------------------------- 18% SP ---------- +18% AP
Judgement of Wisdom Effect--------------------------- 9% SP ----------- +9% AP
Judgements------------------ 1 ------------------- +32% SP ---------- +20% AP
Judgement of Righteousness-- 1 ------------------- +40% SP ---------- +25% AP
Judgement of Vengeance(5-stack)- 1 ------------- +42% SP ---------- +26.25% AP
Judgement of Blood------ 25% Weapon Damage ---- +32% SP ---------- +20% AP
Judgement of Command-- 30% Weapon Damage ---- +32% SP ---------- +20% AP
Exorcism-------------------- 1028-1146 ------------ +15% SP ---------- +15% AP
Consecration---------------- 113 ------------------- +4% SP ----------- +4% AP --- per second
Hammer of Wrath---------- 1139-1257 ------------ +15% SP ---------- +15% AP
Holy Wrath------------------ 1050-1234 ------------- +7% SP ----------- +7% AP
Holy Shield------------------- 211 ------------------- +9% SP --------- +5.6% AP
Avenger's Shield------------ 846-1034 -------------- +7% SP ----------- +7% AP
Retribution Aura------------ 62 ---------------------- +6.66% SP
Ability
---------------------Base (at Max Rank)-----------Spellpower----------Attack Power
Notes
Holy Light--------------4888-5444 ---------------- +166% SP
Flash of Light-----------785-876 ----------------- +100% SP
Holy Shock (Damage)-----1296-1402 ----------------- +43% SP
Holy Shock (Heal)-------2401-2599 ----------------- +81% SP
Seal of Righteousness------------------------------- 5.5% SP ---------- +2.8% AP --- damage per second
Seal of Vengeance (1 stack)------------------------- 1.6% SP ---------- +3.2% AP --- per 3 seconds
Seal of Vengeance (5 Stack)------------------------- 8.0% SP --------- +16% AP --- per 3 seconds
Seal of Light--------------------------------------- 28% SP ---------- +28% AP
Judgement of Light Effect--------------------------- 18% SP ---------- +18% AP
Judgement of Wisdom Effect--------------------------- 9% SP ----------- +9% AP
Judgements------------------ 1 ------------------- +32% SP ---------- +20% AP
Judgement of Righteousness-- 1 ------------------- +40% SP ---------- +25% AP
Judgement of Vengeance(5-stack)- 1 ------------- +42% SP ---------- +26.25% AP
Judgement of Blood------ 25% Weapon Damage ---- +32% SP ---------- +20% AP
Judgement of Command-- 30% Weapon Damage ---- +32% SP ---------- +20% AP
Exorcism-------------------- 1028-1146 ------------ +15% SP ---------- +15% AP
Consecration---------------- 113 ------------------- +4% SP ----------- +4% AP --- per second
Hammer of Wrath---------- 1139-1257 ------------ +15% SP ---------- +15% AP
Holy Wrath------------------ 1050-1234 ------------- +7% SP ----------- +7% AP
Holy Shield------------------- 211 ------------------- +9% SP --------- +5.6% AP
Avenger's Shield------------ 846-1034 -------------- +7% SP ----------- +7% AP
Retribution Aura------------ 62 ---------------------- +6.66% SP
Those numbers are from EJs and probably aren't updated since the patch went live. No one is doing any serious theory crafting until the expansion hits at this point. But last i checked most of those were very close to what you'll see live atm.
Edited, Nov 8th 2008 11:25pm by mahlerite
IT does seem like a holy paladin will still need to be stacking some decent amount of +strength or +AP gear in order to get the most out of his abilities, which as we are a melee class shouldnt surprise me really lol. Im thinking of going deep into holy still, maybe as much as a full BoL 51-points, but now im wondering if its worth getting the +strength and Blessing of Kings from the protection tree, or going for the Benediction and Crusader/Improved Judgments...and possibly even improved Blessing of Might from the Ret Tree.
BoK is a damn useful thing to have though lol.
Why would a holy pally need AP or str. Look over the figures posted above again. Heals are only effected by SP not AP or STR. The only thing a holy pally would do is judge and its not for damage, mainly for the haste buff and maybe some extra healing/mana to the party.
I mean a holy pally when he's not being a mindless healbot lol. We really are capable of a lot more :P
with my guild going through stratholme, the only time i ever needed to do full time healing was on bosses and when we accidently pulled to many mobs, and most bosses dont really require all my attention or mana.
One thing I found on a site earlier though, is that the crit chance of all our judgments is now based on melee crit (from agility). Even though judgements are quite clearly a spell. So basically the only real need to have INT is for the mana, and I know deep ret pallys that main heal perfectly fine without a huge mana pool. So there just seems less and less need to have a holy pally in the new expansion.
ps. I was looking at other spells, not just the 2 healing spells....it gets very boring pressing the same 2 buttons over and over, and if thats what blizzard had in mind for this spec then they might as well just delete it completely lol
edit: reading my post, and knowing what some people are like, i thought id just say that I know a holy pallys job is healing, I was more referring to when the party is going through all the hundreds of trash mobs, where a healer is mostly redundant. I would spend my whole time stood around with full mana and not doing anything significent. With how the new stats works, even in healing gear we also have huge spell damage, but all our spells are geared towards AP.....spells....AP.....should be more SP im sure lol
Edited, Nov 9th 2008 2:12pm by Niiru
with my guild going through stratholme, the only time i ever needed to do full time healing was on bosses and when we accidently pulled to many mobs, and most bosses dont really require all my attention or mana.
One thing I found on a site earlier though, is that the crit chance of all our judgments is now based on melee crit (from agility). Even though judgements are quite clearly a spell. So basically the only real need to have INT is for the mana, and I know deep ret pallys that main heal perfectly fine without a huge mana pool. So there just seems less and less need to have a holy pally in the new expansion.
ps. I was looking at other spells, not just the 2 healing spells....it gets very boring pressing the same 2 buttons over and over, and if thats what blizzard had in mind for this spec then they might as well just delete it completely lol
edit: reading my post, and knowing what some people are like, i thought id just say that I know a holy pallys job is healing, I was more referring to when the party is going through all the hundreds of trash mobs, where a healer is mostly redundant. I would spend my whole time stood around with full mana and not doing anything significent. With how the new stats works, even in healing gear we also have huge spell damage, but all our spells are geared towards AP.....spells....AP.....should be more SP im sure lol
Edited, Nov 9th 2008 2:12pm by Niiru
The reason for the changes was to help homogeneous the tank classes, therefore allowing pally war and deathknight to roll on the same plate gear and allowing any and all to main tank. Also, seems you don't have much experience at 70 if you think trash involves little to no healing. I heal harder on most trash than on bosses. Bosses is spam FoL/holy light on a tank and beacon of light the other tank mostly. Trash I'm a ton more dynamic with Dps taking hate or tanking 20 mobs, making tanks take much more damage. It is inefficient for a holy pally to use his mana towards anything besides heals really, trash can be taken easily without a random holy pally running in to do damage or something.
All in all you'll notice that all the AP changes are made for homogeneousness of tanks, and the benefit of Ret damage. Spells needed by holy are and always will be SP based.
Also, crit on your gear applies to both melee and spell crit. You'll lose the maybe 5% crit you get form int over agi on judgements if that is indeed the case.
All in all you'll notice that all the AP changes are made for homogeneousness of tanks, and the benefit of Ret damage. Spells needed by holy are and always will be SP based.
Also, crit on your gear applies to both melee and spell crit. You'll lose the maybe 5% crit you get form int over agi on judgements if that is indeed the case.
Quote:
One thing I found on a site earlier though, is that the crit chance of all our judgments is now based on melee crit (from agility).
Really? I didn't know that INT no longer affects spell crit. That sux.
Quote:
So basically the only real need to have INT is for the mana, and I know deep ret pallys that main heal perfectly fine without a huge mana pool. So there just seems less and less need to have a holy pally in the new expansion.
Don't forget Holy Guidance. Int = Spell Power. So Holy still gets benefits from Int. Not as good as Ret's SoL, but hey, what can ya do? :)
As far as Holy DPS - the only spell worth using is Holy Shock. All others give pretty lame damage. Unfortunately, this included Judgements. :( If you really want to do some damage, just go Ret. You'll be able to heal just fine.
Judgement is not a spell. In fact, it's a ranged melee attack. Seriously, find a target with, say, Ice Armor (Melee attacks reduce the attacker's attack and move speed). Judge it. You get the debuff.
I was holy, judged a naga from 40 yards.. got slowed.
I was holy, judged a naga from 40 yards.. got slowed.
YJMark wrote:
Quote:
One thing I found on a site earlier though, is that the crit chance of all our judgments is now based on melee crit (from agility).
Really? I didn't know that INT no longer affects spell crit. That sux.
INT still boosts spell crit. Trust me, if that had changed, you would have heard about it. Some people here are full of Edit. Ehcks's statement is still correct though, Judgements are now treated as melee attacks dependent on your melee crit not your spell crit.
Quote:
So basically the only real need to have INT is for the mana, and I know deep ret pallys that main heal perfectly fine without a huge mana pool. So there just seems less and less need to have a holy pally in the new expansion.
In his other thread on this same topic, the OP mentioned going to Outland for the first time. He has not healed an Outland instance with any spec, he has not healed any Outland raid with spec. There's plenty of room ahead for theorycrafting that will eliminate Holy Pallies from the game, but methinks it's not going to come from a hybrid ret/holy scrubbadin whose biggest accomplishment to date is running Stratholme.
Deep Ret healing is certainly feasible. No one is arguing that it isn't (c.f., "straw man").
The real question though is whether any WotLK progression guild going to bring along a deep Ret healer to a raid, in lieu of a deep Ret DPS or traditional Holydin healer? That remains to be seen, but I sure wouldn't bank on it.
HoyadinFTW wrote:
YJMark wrote:
So basically the only real need to have INT is for the mana, and I know deep ret pallys that main heal perfectly fine without a huge mana pool. So there just seems less and less need to have a holy pally in the new expansion.
In his other thread on this same topic, the OP mentioned going to Outland for the first time. He has not healed an Outland instance with any spec, he has not healed any Outland raid with spec. There's plenty of room ahead for theorycrafting that will eliminate Holy Pallies from the game, but methinks it's not going to come from a hybrid ret/holy scrubbadin whose biggest accomplishment to date is running Stratholme.
Deep Ret healing is certainly feasible. No one is arguing that it isn't (c.f., "straw man").
The real question though is whether any WotLK progression guild going to bring along a deep Ret healer to a raid, in lieu of a deep Ret DPS or traditional Holydin healer? That remains to be seen, but I sure wouldn't bank on it.
I suspect that 37/0/34 will be a good leveling/instancing build - hit a little harder solo, and with both DP and JotW you have a little more control over your own mana in a situation where you can't guarantee having someone else to give you Replenishment. Infusion makes you fast on your feet, and in a free-form healing situation, Beacon might not be missed (if you even use it when Holy).
But in a raid situation, the spellpower from HG, and the buffs to judgement (you all /are/ practicing judging as part of your rotation now, since Blizz so thoughtfully nerfed the content, aren't you?) are real nice, esp. now that JotP is up to 15% haste.
In any case, why choose? Dual-spec FTW.
Hey man - you got me misquoted. That quote is from the OP.
Either way, I'm going to start leveling as a Deep Holy with BoL (because I'm a glutton for punishment). Actually, I just enjoy the laziness of BoL. Especially in 5-mans (which will be most of my leveling career). They just took all the stress out of Paladin 5-man instance healing :)
Edited, Nov 10th 2008 3:43pm by YJMark
Either way, I'm going to start leveling as a Deep Holy with BoL (because I'm a glutton for punishment). Actually, I just enjoy the laziness of BoL. Especially in 5-mans (which will be most of my leveling career). They just took all the stress out of Paladin 5-man instance healing :)
Edited, Nov 10th 2008 3:43pm by YJMark
Quote:
I mean a holy pally when he's not being a mindless healbot lol. We really are capable of a lot more :P
with my guild going through stratholme, the only time i ever needed to do full time healing was on bosses and when we accidently pulled to many mobs, and most bosses dont really require all my attention or mana.
with my guild going through stratholme, the only time i ever needed to do full time healing was on bosses and when we accidently pulled to many mobs, and most bosses dont really require all my attention or mana.
Hmm, if i bring a holy pally in the group 99.9999998% of the time is for his healing and not the melee swings of his 41.8 DPS weapon. But then it has been a long time since i have guild raided Stratholme. <shrug>
Quote:
Hmm, if i bring a holy pally in the group 99.9999998% of the time is for his healing and not the melee swings of his 41.8 DPS weapon. But then it has been a long time since i have guild raided Stratholme.
Or, an over-geared tank. I tanked the HH this year in my healing gear - it was pretty fun :) DPS were nowhere near my threat level (of course, none of them broke 800 DPS, so it was pretty easy). I figured that the crits and constant damage (since I had no defense or avoidance) would at least keep the healer from getting bored.
So that is the 0.0000002% :)
As a tank post-patches, I can say that having a holy Paladin in a 5-man or a raid is win. Bacon of light is awesome, and Holy Light critting me for 11k heals is awesome. I don't think Holy Paladin will be obsolete at all at 80, I think they will just get even better, and they can put out some damage now if the healing assignment isn't requiring their full attention, which sometimes it isn't any more. They will still be primarily healing especially once everyone gets to 80, but they have some abilities beyond that when they have the luxury of using them.
Just a point of information for those in this thread who think a Holy Pally has "free time" on his/her hands to do something other than heal during a raid.
It's rare that I have no one to heal and nothing to cleanse during a raid. When it does happen, my meager dps will not make a difference in the fight.
A Holy Pally should spec for nothing else, and should concentrate on nothing else. It's all about healing. As it is, there are enough decisions to make regarding which talent to take and which to forgo.
If you are not a Holy Pally, please do not give advice on healing or the Holy tree. There are many who pass through these forums and pick up information along the way, and in my opinion it's better they get no information than incorrect information.
In return, I promise not to give advice on the Ret or Prot tree, or on any other class that I have no experience with.
EDIT:
It took me a bit to find this quote regarding the value of intellect to a Holy Pally in WotLK. This is from the EJ forum:
2nd EDIT:
It occurs to me that I did intentionally do some dps during the Vashj fight. Not because I had time on my hands though.
Edited, Nov 11th 2008 1:12pm by cynyck
Edited, Nov 11th 2008 1:15pm by cynyck
It's rare that I have no one to heal and nothing to cleanse during a raid. When it does happen, my meager dps will not make a difference in the fight.
A Holy Pally should spec for nothing else, and should concentrate on nothing else. It's all about healing. As it is, there are enough decisions to make regarding which talent to take and which to forgo.
If you are not a Holy Pally, please do not give advice on healing or the Holy tree. There are many who pass through these forums and pick up information along the way, and in my opinion it's better they get no information than incorrect information.
In return, I promise not to give advice on the Ret or Prot tree, or on any other class that I have no experience with.
EDIT:
It took me a bit to find this quote regarding the value of intellect to a Holy Pally in WotLK. This is from the EJ forum:
Quote:
Intellect
Intellect has received a HUGE boost with WotLK mechanics, and is now one of the best (if not the best) stat for Holy Paladins. Let me list what 100 Intellect gives you:
* 126.5 Intellect, with BoK and Divine Intellect
* 1897 Mana at the start of the fight
* 39.5mp5 from Divine Plea, if its used on CD.
* 21.3mp5 from Replenishment, with 90% uptime.
* 4.7mp5 from Arcane Torrent, if you are a Blood Elf.
* 25.3 Spell Power
* 0.759% Spell Crit
This gives you a lot of mana, which lets you cast a lot more Holy Lights and be more liberal in using them.
Spirit
Despite being told while WotLK was still in its initial phases that they wanted to make spirit good for all healers, nothing ended up getting changed. Spirit still is as crappy as ever for Paladins, you are never out of the 5SR to gain any mana from it. 100 spirit gives you nothing .
Intellect has received a HUGE boost with WotLK mechanics, and is now one of the best (if not the best) stat for Holy Paladins. Let me list what 100 Intellect gives you:
* 126.5 Intellect, with BoK and Divine Intellect
* 1897 Mana at the start of the fight
* 39.5mp5 from Divine Plea, if its used on CD.
* 21.3mp5 from Replenishment, with 90% uptime.
* 4.7mp5 from Arcane Torrent, if you are a Blood Elf.
* 25.3 Spell Power
* 0.759% Spell Crit
This gives you a lot of mana, which lets you cast a lot more Holy Lights and be more liberal in using them.
Spirit
Despite being told while WotLK was still in its initial phases that they wanted to make spirit good for all healers, nothing ended up getting changed. Spirit still is as crappy as ever for Paladins, you are never out of the 5SR to gain any mana from it. 100 spirit gives you nothing .
2nd EDIT:
It occurs to me that I did intentionally do some dps during the Vashj fight. Not because I had time on my hands though.
Edited, Nov 11th 2008 1:12pm by cynyck
Edited, Nov 11th 2008 1:15pm by cynyck
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Hey, let this thread slide for a while without checking it cos I was over on the WoW-EU forums....what a waste of time they generally are! lol
Anyway, never said I was an expert, sorry if I gave that impression, if I was an expert I wouldnt be asking for advice would I ^^ lol.
My question about holy damage was more for when questing and soloing, cos unfortunatly it is not always possible to get a good group together for instances. When my healing is required then I put all my effort into it, and Ive never had any complaints to date. True I need raid experience, but I dont mess around pretending to do damage while the tanks are dying! Though I have been in groups that had a healer, and then I was off-healing in emergencies and doing damage.
And someone i think misunderstood what I said about judgments crit...I never said that INT no longer gave spell crit, What I meant was that judgements dont count as spells, and therefore use AGI for crit. I just think that they should count as spells myself.
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