so i was wondering what everyone thinks about it. I personaly havent tryed it yet but i noticed a guildie today had it was pulling 900 dps and he's not that good geared. he's like 500 sd 0 hit rateing, not even tallented into any hit and he only has 11% crit. true i dont know what debuffs was going on mobs but i'm only about 1.2k dps for single target mobs, wich is what we was doing tonight. i have 900+ sd well over hit capped and about 18% crit.
so does it make that big of a diff or is he good or am i just sucking. i can normaly top the casters on damage now, and i'm normaly top 5 with the melee.
so has anyone tryed it and if so what do you think of it?
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I can't really answer the question, but i have an additional question for eclipse.
It says it has a 30 sec cooldown. Does that mean when one of the effects proc, none of them can proc for 30 sec, or do they have seperate cooldown. In other words: If the increased starfire crit procs, can it proc the wrath damage increase?
It says it has a 30 sec cooldown. Does that mean when one of the effects proc, none of them can proc for 30 sec, or do they have seperate cooldown. In other words: If the increased starfire crit procs, can it proc the wrath damage increase?
I tried Eclipse out for about a week and didn't really like it, just because it makes you change your spell rotation.
Did you happen to catch what spell spells he was using for single target, between bosses and regular mobs?
When I first switched to boomkin it was with a resto set with no +hit. I did take balance of power though. I wasn't missing much on regular mobs due to hit rating not being that big a deal. That kept my dps up pretty high there. I did miss more on Bosses but depending, like you said, on hit improvement spells, like Imp FF etc... you could miss less than normal.
Now about eclipse, I found that I wasn't using it much because it would proc off wrath on trash mobs , where I wouldn't switch to Starfire anyway because the mobs would be dead too fast.
I found that on bosses, I wanted to use Starfire to keep my Moonfire ticking because I'm using Glyph of Moonfire and Starfire. Therefore, I didn't want to switch my rotation to a wrath and then waste a GCD refreshing Moonfire when it ran out.
I found that overall I wasn't seeing an increase in my dps. It just seemed like more work to have to switch back and forth all the time and watch for the proc. It was just interrupting the normal flow of my spellcasting.
Here's my armory Galenmoon
I did the first 3 bosses in Mt. Hyjal the other day. I was rocking 1.5k dps on bosses running Moonfire, IS and Starfire spam. I was doing over 5k dps on trash with Hurricane. I think I used Wrath like 10 times on single mobs that weren't under my hurricane once everything else was dead. My overall DPS for the run was just over 3k.
So basically I didn't like it Eclipse when I tried it and I haven't looked back.
As far as the 30 sec proc question, I didn't test it long enough to be sure on that.
Did you happen to catch what spell spells he was using for single target, between bosses and regular mobs?
When I first switched to boomkin it was with a resto set with no +hit. I did take balance of power though. I wasn't missing much on regular mobs due to hit rating not being that big a deal. That kept my dps up pretty high there. I did miss more on Bosses but depending, like you said, on hit improvement spells, like Imp FF etc... you could miss less than normal.
Now about eclipse, I found that I wasn't using it much because it would proc off wrath on trash mobs , where I wouldn't switch to Starfire anyway because the mobs would be dead too fast.
I found that on bosses, I wanted to use Starfire to keep my Moonfire ticking because I'm using Glyph of Moonfire and Starfire. Therefore, I didn't want to switch my rotation to a wrath and then waste a GCD refreshing Moonfire when it ran out.
I found that overall I wasn't seeing an increase in my dps. It just seemed like more work to have to switch back and forth all the time and watch for the proc. It was just interrupting the normal flow of my spellcasting.
Here's my armory Galenmoon
I did the first 3 bosses in Mt. Hyjal the other day. I was rocking 1.5k dps on bosses running Moonfire, IS and Starfire spam. I was doing over 5k dps on trash with Hurricane. I think I used Wrath like 10 times on single mobs that weren't under my hurricane once everything else was dead. My overall DPS for the run was just over 3k.
So basically I didn't like it Eclipse when I tried it and I haven't looked back.
As far as the 30 sec proc question, I didn't test it long enough to be sure on that.
I also have yet to test out Eclipse. When I first spec'd Boomkin about 2 weeks ago, I read a lot of people were skipping over it, so I didn't pick it up. I'm wondering if that was a mistake now. I think most people are like Galenmoon, who don't want to switch up their rotations. I understand that people are resistant to change, but Eclipse seems pretty good for 3 talent points.
I agree that it probably only comes into play on boss fights, but that's really all that matters. I will probably try a build with Eclipse and compare it to my current build on one of the target dummies to see how the two compare.
Does anyone have any numbers either way on whether or not eclipse is worth taking?
I agree that it probably only comes into play on boss fights, but that's really all that matters. I will probably try a build with Eclipse and compare it to my current build on one of the target dummies to see how the two compare.
Does anyone have any numbers either way on whether or not eclipse is worth taking?
my understanding of eclipse is that its an either-or mechanism. either starfire procs it, or wrath procs it, and once its procced (regardless of the spell that procced it) the cooldown begins.
as for me, i kinda like eclipse. it does make you change your rotation, which is a nice change of pace really, and depending on your preferences you can kinda fudge it based on need by using more wraths or more starfires in the hopes of grabbing a proc. the starfire buff version (15% more crit) is also nice in keeping nature's grace going, which can be a big increase in dps if you get some consistent critting.
but thats not in a raid environment. i cant speak for a raid situation. but for 5-mans and solo stuff, i like eclipse.
as for me, i kinda like eclipse. it does make you change your rotation, which is a nice change of pace really, and depending on your preferences you can kinda fudge it based on need by using more wraths or more starfires in the hopes of grabbing a proc. the starfire buff version (15% more crit) is also nice in keeping nature's grace going, which can be a big increase in dps if you get some consistent critting.
but thats not in a raid environment. i cant speak for a raid situation. but for 5-mans and solo stuff, i like eclipse.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's bad by any means, my biggest issue with it is probably because I have the Glyphs for Moonfire and Starfire.
My Starfire constantly refreshing my Moonfire is nice, since my Moonfire tends to tick for between 600-700 depending on trinket usage. Switching to Wrath and having it run out and need refreshing seems like a dps loss to me.
If it wasn't for those glyphs, I would probably give eclipse another shot.
I didn't see a huge loss or gain either way with or without Eclipse, so it might be more a matter of play style as well and also depending on your glyphs and how you work your rotation.
I can usually keep my Moonfire up for 2-3 refreshes of IS before needing to pop it again to have a fresh timer.
My Starfire constantly refreshing my Moonfire is nice, since my Moonfire tends to tick for between 600-700 depending on trinket usage. Switching to Wrath and having it run out and need refreshing seems like a dps loss to me.
If it wasn't for those glyphs, I would probably give eclipse another shot.
I didn't see a huge loss or gain either way with or without Eclipse, so it might be more a matter of play style as well and also depending on your glyphs and how you work your rotation.
I can usually keep my Moonfire up for 2-3 refreshes of IS before needing to pop it again to have a fresh timer.
Well, with the new patch, glyph of MF is nerfed so you can't keep MF up indefinitely but you can only "refresh" it 3 times. For me personally, that changes my spellrotation anyways. So I might try and mix eclipse in.
Especially now that the effect of eclipse has been doubled, I think it's well worth picking up for 3 talent points. I too welcome the change of pace. The primary reason I've never wanted to play a spell caster was because they all became one button mashers in the endgame. This actually allows you to switch things up, and rewards skilled players (or at least people that are capable of watching for a proc).
Since we're getting a free respec and 4 extra talent points to play with, courtesy of the changes to Earth and Moon and Moonfury, I'll definitely be picking up eclipse to try it out.
Since we're getting a free respec and 4 extra talent points to play with, courtesy of the changes to Earth and Moon and Moonfury, I'll definitely be picking up eclipse to try it out.
I tried out Eclipse in ZA last night, and I have to say that I was pretty happy with the results. Trash doesn't live long enough for it to be worthwhile, but I certainly noticed the increase in damage it provides on bosses. It does require that you watch for procs, but it was a pretty nice boost to DPS for 3 talent points.
My one question about the ability, is if it's worth neglecting your DoTs while the buff is active (i.e. should I let IS and MF fall off to get as many buffed Wraths or Starfires in as possible)? I haven't played around with it enough to figure it out for myself, but if someone has done the math, or raided more extensively with and without eclipse, I'd definitely be interested to know.
My one question about the ability, is if it's worth neglecting your DoTs while the buff is active (i.e. should I let IS and MF fall off to get as many buffed Wraths or Starfires in as possible)? I haven't played around with it enough to figure it out for myself, but if someone has done the math, or raided more extensively with and without eclipse, I'd definitely be interested to know.
I've used Eclipse now and my god, I hate the thing. I'll be putting my 4 extra points into Genesis so my moonfire tics for more damage.
Would you care to elaborate what you hated about it?
theory craft shows that eclipse is now a definite DPS increase, and a somewhat substantial one at that. i think the lv 80 numbers i read about were between 300 and 500 dps in T7-25man gear. it makes rotations a ***** though, especially if you have to renew moonfire in the middle of it.
I didn't like it because I don't like having to change up my spell rotation when it's working well enough for me as it is. During a raid there is enough going on that I already have to pay attention too and having to watch my procs isn't something I shouldn't have to be focusing on.
I have a high enough crit rating as it is that it doesn't seem like the extra 30% for SF isn't necessarily worth the dps drop I recieve from having to spam wrath hoping to get the proc 60% of the time.
There are way too many things that have to be done right to get it to be used, plus with the internal cooldown timer on it I just don't feel its worth anything.
I have a high enough crit rating as it is that it doesn't seem like the extra 30% for SF isn't necessarily worth the dps drop I recieve from having to spam wrath hoping to get the proc 60% of the time.
There are way too many things that have to be done right to get it to be used, plus with the internal cooldown timer on it I just don't feel its worth anything.
i really dont mean any offense w/this, but what you just said is the difference between the theory crafters and the average person. you'd rather it be a little easier/manageable at the cost of some dps, where taking eclipse becomes a nightmare to manage but with good skill/rotations/timing/ and a little luck you can boost your dps a bit.
nothing wrong w/that, as long as you realize you are less dps in some cases than a boomkin who figures it out.
nothing wrong w/that, as long as you realize you are less dps in some cases than a boomkin who figures it out.
****, id take eclipse just because of the "lore" ive imagined is behind it, along with the neat on-proc animation. just the very idea that the power of the moon i just smote some poor ******* with causes a cosmic event of no small magnitude makes me a little giddy. watching that sun be eclipsed by a moon over my head is just icing on the cake.
You may have missed what I was trying to say. You're relying on some things to happen here.
One, you need to crit with a wrath cast. Now this obviously is limited to your critical strike rating and if that is not up too snuff you're going to be missing out on extra dps as you sit and wait for that wrath cast.
Two, if you fully talent eclipse you're going to be giving yourself a 60% chance that it will increase your crit rate for starfire. Now 60% is good yes, but once again this is a chance and doesnt fully mean that IF you crit with a wrath you'll receive the buff.
Three, it's only 15 seconds so you're increasing by 30% for just that limited amount of time. I would be able to get off, for numbers sake all critical strikes, and I was 3/3 Nature's Grace only 7 casts.
Four, if I am doing this in a raid, bosses now are hardly just tank n spank bosses. Supremus, Gruul and Brutalis are about the only big tank n spank bosses you really run into, and Mags I guess. So you're sitting there watching your mana drain as you wait for a critical strike from wrath to drop then you switch out to Starfire.
Five, the thirty second cooldown that starts after Eclipse runs out. You now have to mentally watch the internal timer on it just to be safe you don't accidently proc the wrath Eclipse by using starfire in your downtime.
There are five examples of why I don't want to waste my time with eclipse when I can talent 3/3 Imp FF and 3/3 Imp IS and get another 6% crit all the time by just casting Starfire, Moonfire when I need to renew it, and FF when I need to renew that.
Thats just my opinion of it. Mind you I am not against theory crafting at all. I put my heart and soul into Panzerkin Tanking with hybrid builds and gear/stat stacking. Hell I even tried to come up with a viable spec for HT healing pre patch, but even with all those things I listed it just doesnt seem like it's that worthwhile.
One, you need to crit with a wrath cast. Now this obviously is limited to your critical strike rating and if that is not up too snuff you're going to be missing out on extra dps as you sit and wait for that wrath cast.
Two, if you fully talent eclipse you're going to be giving yourself a 60% chance that it will increase your crit rate for starfire. Now 60% is good yes, but once again this is a chance and doesnt fully mean that IF you crit with a wrath you'll receive the buff.
Three, it's only 15 seconds so you're increasing by 30% for just that limited amount of time. I would be able to get off, for numbers sake all critical strikes, and I was 3/3 Nature's Grace only 7 casts.
Four, if I am doing this in a raid, bosses now are hardly just tank n spank bosses. Supremus, Gruul and Brutalis are about the only big tank n spank bosses you really run into, and Mags I guess. So you're sitting there watching your mana drain as you wait for a critical strike from wrath to drop then you switch out to Starfire.
Five, the thirty second cooldown that starts after Eclipse runs out. You now have to mentally watch the internal timer on it just to be safe you don't accidently proc the wrath Eclipse by using starfire in your downtime.
There are five examples of why I don't want to waste my time with eclipse when I can talent 3/3 Imp FF and 3/3 Imp IS and get another 6% crit all the time by just casting Starfire, Moonfire when I need to renew it, and FF when I need to renew that.
Thats just my opinion of it. Mind you I am not against theory crafting at all. I put my heart and soul into Panzerkin Tanking with hybrid builds and gear/stat stacking. Hell I even tried to come up with a viable spec for HT healing pre patch, but even with all those things I listed it just doesnt seem like it's that worthwhile.
Fair enough. I was mostly just curious why you hated the talent so much. Personally, I find the proc watching much more enjoyable than the standard "keep IS and MF up and spam Starfire" rotation. I roll with a pretty low crit rate, since I was resto before 3.0, and I never had much opportunity to collect a decent set of Balance gear.
I generally don't try to spam Wrath to get the Starfire crit proc. As you mentioned, spamming Wrath is a pretty big mana drain, and my crit rate (~22%) is low enough that it can take a considerable amount of time to get the proc. So typically I use the standard rotation until a crit Starfire procs the Wrath damage buff. I then switch to Wrath spamming for the duration of the buff, and then go back to the standard rotation. It may not be optimal use of Eclipse, but my DPS is higher using the talent in this manner than it was when I skipped over the talent completely. It also prevents me from going OOM early in fights.
I also can't speak to much of the endgame content. Most of the raiding I've been doing lately (Kara/ZA/Gruul/Mag/Hyjal) is fairly tank 'n' spank, at least enough to make the talent useful.
Those are just my thoughts on the talent.
I generally don't try to spam Wrath to get the Starfire crit proc. As you mentioned, spamming Wrath is a pretty big mana drain, and my crit rate (~22%) is low enough that it can take a considerable amount of time to get the proc. So typically I use the standard rotation until a crit Starfire procs the Wrath damage buff. I then switch to Wrath spamming for the duration of the buff, and then go back to the standard rotation. It may not be optimal use of Eclipse, but my DPS is higher using the talent in this manner than it was when I skipped over the talent completely. It also prevents me from going OOM early in fights.
I also can't speak to much of the endgame content. Most of the raiding I've been doing lately (Kara/ZA/Gruul/Mag/Hyjal) is fairly tank 'n' spank, at least enough to make the talent useful.
Those are just my thoughts on the talent.
camel uses it the same way i do. combined with owlkin frenzy, eclipse can make for some pretty nasty single target wrath dps in pvp, or in general really. maybe its not the "optimal" way of doing things, but it sure is fun to be a machine gun shooting green globs of deadliness.
Yes, in pvp I totally agree 3/3 Eclipse is very nice especially since I always start off with SF, so paired up with Owlkin Frenzy if they tag me then yes I do agree Eclipse is very useful.
Pve, a different story.
Pve, a different story.
I have to agree with Arex on this. I took Eclipse again for about 2 days, ran kara and ZA with it (didn't get to BT or Hyjal, they are this weekend)
And I went ahead and spec'd right out of it.
(I'm resto atm. We needed heals in BWL last night for a fun run)
Proc watching + internal cooldown + minimal dps gain from increased wrath damage due to DoTs falling off + only 60% chance for a 30% increase in crit. Eh.
I did 3.5k overall in Hyjal last week without it. 1.5k on boss fights and 5k ish on the trash (lulz hurricane + JoW)
If the theorycrafters are seeing a gain, I'm going to need a lot more convincing before I spec back into it. I'll need to see how letting my superpowered Moonfire (glyphed) and IS fall off (also have Genesis for extra DoT damage) sees an increase from wrath spamming during the 15 second proc. The waste of GCD's putting them back up before starting back into a starfire rotation seems like a waste.
Plus you aren't gonna switch to starfire on trash when wrath procs it's increased crit because the mobs will be dead before you get off more than 1.
BTW: My numbers in Hyjal were 1.1k spell damage, 29% crit and 107 hit rating + 2/2 Balance of Power raid buffed.
And I went ahead and spec'd right out of it.
(I'm resto atm. We needed heals in BWL last night for a fun run)
Proc watching + internal cooldown + minimal dps gain from increased wrath damage due to DoTs falling off + only 60% chance for a 30% increase in crit. Eh.
I did 3.5k overall in Hyjal last week without it. 1.5k on boss fights and 5k ish on the trash (lulz hurricane + JoW)
If the theorycrafters are seeing a gain, I'm going to need a lot more convincing before I spec back into it. I'll need to see how letting my superpowered Moonfire (glyphed) and IS fall off (also have Genesis for extra DoT damage) sees an increase from wrath spamming during the 15 second proc. The waste of GCD's putting them back up before starting back into a starfire rotation seems like a waste.
Plus you aren't gonna switch to starfire on trash when wrath procs it's increased crit because the mobs will be dead before you get off more than 1.
BTW: My numbers in Hyjal were 1.1k spell damage, 29% crit and 107 hit rating + 2/2 Balance of Power raid buffed.
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