More Paladin Nerfs.Follow

Ghostcrawler 'of the Shattered Sun' creeps through the bush and spies his goal, he has done many of these expeditions recently and is getting tired. He holds back while a patrol walks nearby and when it is clear he moves forward equipping his hammer. He thinks to himself just this and the quest chain is nearly done.

*THUNK*

Nails in Paladin Coffin 10/12

'Yeah!' says Ghostcrawler '2 more to go'. He check his map, looks across the drawn mountain ranges to a woodland section with the legend 'Here be QQ' and makes his way towards the mountains.

I think that they are going waaaay overboard, 3.0 has only been out 2 bloody weeks and pallies have been nerfed remorselessly to the extent where it seems to indicate that Blizz are f*cking clueless.

Rogues can stunlock and kill you in 6 seconds, Mages and boomkins damage is far higher than ret pallies but nothing has been done with them.

Maybe its Blizzards way of purging the class from the list, if they make pallies really, really crap (which they are making significant progress in) then no one will play pallies and then they can remove them from the list.

I had loads of hopes for my pally in wotlk, you know actually being able to go into a 5 man without respeccing, actually be able to go to raids, having fun and killing things in pvp.

I have always enjoyed playing my pally however I have a lock and and up and coming huntard, warrior and shammy but would hate to have to retire my pally on the basis that he will be sh*t (again) for a whole expansion.

Pallies have had sooo many nerfs and have yet more to come that it is no longer funny

The Paladin hero in WC3 was terrible. I played on the EU RoC and TFT ladders (68% win rate /flex) and never saw a human army use the pally to any great effect. Seriously, it was Archmage creep grinding, or you'd harass with a MK but the Paladin was the secondary support hero.

You're probably right, I never played on battle.net in WC3, just LAN and against computers. I used other races when it wasn't on random. And it didn't matter to min/max when you are already the best at the game among your friends.

That actually supports my point even more. In vanilla, paladin was only useful for the heals, just like in WC3. But the issue was that as a core class, it is already proficient at any role you put it to. By buffing a specific role (like dps) the rest of the class that supports that role remains the same, giving the buff a multiplying effect. Bubble is a base class feature, but every single player combines it with talent abilities to devastating effect. Heals are a defining feature, and make the class able to adapt more, but with high dps, or high defense, that ability to adapt pushes it over the edge to overpowered.

Paladin is balanced for pve (or soon will be). By the very abilities that define the class, it will never be balanced for pvp. They can try all they want, ret pallies will either destroy or be destroyed. Holy pallies will always be durable healers, and prot pallies will... tank vann?

It's been said again and again, don't balance for pvp, balance for pve. Or just give us a straight 10% damage nerf against other players (they are already considered different from mobs).


Edited, Nov 3rd 2008 3:32am by Zeynothix

The same thing happened with TBC as well, as people so often forget is the case. The chances of Blizzard getting everything right on the first pass is astronomically low, so there's no point throwing a fit when they have to go back and change things. Ret Pallies are currently OP, but many fear they will be lackluster after upcoming nerfs. Arcane Mages' burst damage is borderline OP as well, but terrible for PvE. Shaman are consistently parsing pitiful DPS. Mana drains aren't scaling well at 80. There is a whole host of problems, these and many more, that Blizzard has to deal with and balance out.

Edited, Nov 3rd 2008 12:14pm by Gaudion

We did a full ZA clear this weekend. I was second in DPS doing about 1200-1300. Our BM hunter was just crushing doing about 1600 Oo. We are a casual guild we just do 10 mans but we have fun. :)

I had no mana issues. That's not to say that my mana was 100 percent the entire time. I had to drink after certain fights but I was going all out with DS + consecrates.

As far as PvP this weekend I would say we are already just fine. Some battles I was doing really well going 11-3 or so on KB's but I was rarely the top. In fact pallies were not dominating the top spots at all it was very mixed.

Other battles I was getting focus fired and just plain destroyed. When I first tried to bubble after AW that was a bt shocking to see forbearence back heh.

I saw one very PvP S4 geared pally destroying worlds in an Eots. But s4 geared players of any class tear up scrubs in BG's.

There was a kitty cat druid that decided he liked my blood in one match and I could almost never live past his opener if my bubble was down. He dropped me in the stereotypical 2-3 seconds.

I imagine it was his gear and skill level that made the difference.

The two top QQ's in BG chat from the whiner brigade were still against pallies and arcane mages. But most BG's warlocks, warriors, and hunters were very represented in damage and top KB's.

As long as these nerfs don't make my pally useless in PvE I will be ok with them. The DoT effects should be interesting.




Edited, Nov 3rd 2008 3:28pm by Shojindo

I just figured I made someone mad for saying the PvE mana nerf was not really that bad. Or maybe becuase I don't think we are all that OP in PVP since the current nerfs.

It's not worth sweating the karma trolls but sometimes they can be annoying. :D

still destroying the BGs...even against competent opponents: Epic WSG

Uhh ohh...I broke out my hunter tonight in BG's after not playing him for a couple a months. Mind you I was rusty as hell but it is really interesting to see this from the other side. Mostly any geared pally killed me before I could get out of a single HoJ. I can see how thats slightly frustrating for people lol.

Of course there were some other tough classes (*cough arcane mage) and everyone is bursty right now yada yada... but it was interesting seeing how a pally faceroll feels from the other side. >_<

It seems pally burst scales really extremely with gear. Sort of like warriors. Maybe the scaling is where they should look. Average pally: Not to bad, strong but you have a chance. Geared up Pally: Superman. I hope they can get this all figured out at 80. But honestly its only 2 weeks to WoTLK so it's all good either way I suppose.

And Gaudion what do you expect coming onto a class forum full of pallies on a crusade to nerf them. That kind of thing gets more support on whatever class's forums that are not the one you are complaining about. I know you like the drama though and I do give you credit for the guts to to do it to an extent.



Edited, Nov 3rd 2008 10:45pm by Shojindo

i appreciate G's firm stance and unpopular view(here at least). i have voted him up a few times based on his clear points and indisputable facts on this issue. in a room full of "whoa is me" its nice to get a slap in the face.

in the area if PvE, my pally is doing DOUBLE the dmg and almost DOUBLE the survivability, from where i was less than 1 month ago. this is not an exageration. i finally completed some neglected SMV 5-man group quests...solo. Kara now feels like your running guildies through ZF.

by contrast, my frost mage pretty much breaks even on dmg since the patch, maybe a 10% increase in exchange for lesser longevity.



pally PvP is where it gets hazy. in BG, i have never felt a class that can turn the tide of a battle more: whether its defending a node 3 on 1, assisting a flag runner, or just clearing the battlefield. in this regard Ret is OP.

however, if you stroll into any competetive arena(>1500) you will see the balancing in action. classes that spec for pvp and actually take the survival and utility talents will humble even the most geared Ret pally. those hunters and druids that try to go toe-to-toe with a Ret pally will get some hurt-pie. likewise, those that exploit their classes full range of abilities will be very successful.

the put it in context: i respec'd my mage to deep arcane. Ret pallies are just laughable now. Slow, Barrage, PoM Fireball(or Fireblast), Barrage...he bubbles(as most noobs would). repeat til dead while staying out of range.

then you got shammies and their purge...grr

Edited, Nov 4th 2008 11:04am by tommyguns

Well I've been mostly quiet about all these nerfs and things, I tend not to be too reactionary, since I know that Blizzard's stance changes at the drop of a hat, and it's not worth the panic attack.

Anyway, I knew these nerfs were going to happen, it was just a matter of time. Either way, even with all of these nerfs, we are still way more powered than we were pre-patch, as Tommy pointed out. Our survivability has gone up a TON, as well as our DPS and our sustainability. Art of War, Judgement of the Wise, not needing to judge/reseal every time, our AP going towards out spell power, etc... Each one of these by themselves is a major buff to the Retribution Spec.

The way the nerfs were carried out I don't necessarily agree with, like others on here have pointed out, putting AW on forbearance makes it just like it was pre-patch: Nigh-unusable by most specs/situations since it's more preferable to have your bubble ready whenever possible. However, I am counting on Blizzard realizing this and changing it back and doing something like Ze suggested, or just make it so that AW can't be used when the Paladin currently has their Divine Shield up and vice-versa.

The problem is that a lot of Retribution Paladins got a taste of Godhood, and now that Bliz is saying "No... no wait you should be more like everyone else" they don't want to give up your godhood. Sure it was fun when it lasted, and I enjoyed destroying people and mobs as well as the rest of you, but when I can solo Mana Tombs in the gear I'm in, or Onyxia, or destroy 2 lvl 70s and still be at full health and mana after the fight, there is something wrong there.

HOWever, the splash damage the other specs are getting isn't cool. Protection and Holy were in good shape compared to the other classes, and Holy could stand for a couple more buffs, and they don't really deserve to be nerfed because of Retributions god-ness.

Also, wait until lvl 80 when we fall behind the other classes again, and they fix all the nerfs. The problem here is they were balancing for 80 pre-patch, once the patch came out they started balancing at 70 again. We'll see where we are at 3 months after the expansion. Should be interesting.

Tommyguns, class balance in PvP is not designed around 1v1.


Basic and fundamental thing I shouldn't have to explain for the 15th time.