here are the mana values of spells used by a lvl 70 human Ret pally(no Glyphs or modifiers, talents noted):
spell cost CD
Judgement 132 mp (10s/8s)
CS 212 mp (6s)
DS 318 mp (10s)
HoW 318 mp (6s)
HoJ 79 mp (60s/talented = fail)
Repentence 238 mp (60s)
Consecration 584 mp (8s)
Exorcism 212 mp (15s)
Holy Wrath 531 mp (30s)
Cleanse 159 mp
AW 212 mp (2m)
Turn Evil 265 mp (1.5s)
FoL 206 mp (1.5s)
Bubble 79 mp (5m)
Hand of Prot 159 mp (5m)
Hand of Free 159 mp (25s)
Hand of Sac 159 mp (2m)
LoH +900 mp (20m)
==========================
the return on JotW is as follows:
instant - 975 mp
replenish - 170(136) mp @ 10s(8s) on 6500 max
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- OOM Ret style
OOM Ret styleFollow
i hold that it is not possible to oom in a proper dmg rotation. this is considering no raid buffs and no outside mana regen and no BoW.
judge = 132 (1.5s)
DS = 318 (1.5s)
CS = 212 (1.5s)
FoL = 206 (1.5s)
==================
total = 868 (6.0s)
regen = 1094
net = 226+
trade a FoL for HoJ and HoW = net 35+
trade a FoL for Consecrate = net 152-
judge then spam cleanse 5 times(9s) = net 201+
judge then spam FoL 5 times(9s) = net 34-
need a pvp burst?
AW = 212 (0s)
bubble= 79 (0s)
HoJ = 79 (0s)
judge = 132 (1.5s)
DS = 318 (1.5s)
CS = 212 (1.5s)
HoW = 318 (1.5s)
Repent= 238 (1.5s)
wait = 0 (0.5s)
==================
tot = 1588(8.0s)
regen = 1111
net = 477- (per full cooldown)
would take 2 rounds of rotation #1 to regain mana lost from full CD burst rotation, leaving over 3 more rounds of rotation #1 before stun CDs are back up. net mana = 653+ per min.
this is all best case scenerio. but i would argue, a properly geared Ret pally, using a reasonable dmg/survival rotation will not go OOM. this holds more true when raid buffed, glyphed, healed, and using a pot.
feel free to check the math and report errors.
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 10:22am by tommyguns
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 10:25am by tommyguns
judge = 132 (1.5s)
DS = 318 (1.5s)
CS = 212 (1.5s)
FoL = 206 (1.5s)
==================
total = 868 (6.0s)
regen = 1094
net = 226+
trade a FoL for HoJ and HoW = net 35+
trade a FoL for Consecrate = net 152-
judge then spam cleanse 5 times(9s) = net 201+
judge then spam FoL 5 times(9s) = net 34-
need a pvp burst?
AW = 212 (0s)
bubble= 79 (0s)
HoJ = 79 (0s)
judge = 132 (1.5s)
DS = 318 (1.5s)
CS = 212 (1.5s)
HoW = 318 (1.5s)
Repent= 238 (1.5s)
wait = 0 (0.5s)
==================
tot = 1588(8.0s)
regen = 1111
net = 477- (per full cooldown)
would take 2 rounds of rotation #1 to regain mana lost from full CD burst rotation, leaving over 3 more rounds of rotation #1 before stun CDs are back up. net mana = 653+ per min.
this is all best case scenerio. but i would argue, a properly geared Ret pally, using a reasonable dmg/survival rotation will not go OOM. this holds more true when raid buffed, glyphed, healed, and using a pot.
feel free to check the math and report errors.
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 10:22am by tommyguns
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 10:25am by tommyguns
Experience confirms this, i was in Zul Aman today. Never droppped below 90% mana despite throwing down consecrates to nuke trash quicker. In raid conditions with buffs and spriests/ice mages whatever, you simply cannot go OOM. It was a chest run with a few badly geared PuG members, so we didn't have time to drink. People love the replenishment effect, it's something like an extra 100 MP5 on top of BoW.
yep, I actually use consecrate on a regular basis. so my mana usage is roughly what my mana regen is if I don't need to heal. however, get rid of the mana return and you are still spending 868 every 7.5 seconds by your math and only getting 136 back. this leaves a net of 732 cost per 8 seconds. my buffed mana pool is around 5500. i'd run out in 7.5 rotations. this would be 60 seconds. not sure what your point is, but running oom in 60 seconds on a boss fight with only one mana pot per fight means no replenishment or dps after that. take the mana return away and ret will be far less desireable than it ever was in the past. this will be slightly worse when I get rid of my int gear like i'm supposed to. this is also assuming your rotation which doesn't include consecration which is now scaling enough to be worthwhile.
however, you are right. at the moment you can go pretty close to forever without going oom. even adding consecrate you'll run out, but it will be a long time.
i'm curious tommy, are you saying this should be nerfed or just pointing it out for the fun of the math? if this should be nerfed should other classes mana regen be nerfed too? hunters have been saying they regen their full mana bar in 7-8 seconds while still dps'ing (addmittedly, slightly lower dps than when in AotH). When was the last time you saw an enh shammy go oom. I haven't seen it. rogues don't go ooe and then sit their useless for the remainder of the fight. fury got its TG hit modifier reduced so it could manage to use their always full rage bar. maybe pallies should be given a shorter cooldown and GCD so we can use our mana lol.
i'm not sure what your point was, but before you start asking for a nerf, consider that we are not unique in this and a nerf would unnecessarily make us the laughing stock of WotLK just like we've been for a while already.
however, you are right. at the moment you can go pretty close to forever without going oom. even adding consecrate you'll run out, but it will be a long time.
i'm curious tommy, are you saying this should be nerfed or just pointing it out for the fun of the math? if this should be nerfed should other classes mana regen be nerfed too? hunters have been saying they regen their full mana bar in 7-8 seconds while still dps'ing (addmittedly, slightly lower dps than when in AotH). When was the last time you saw an enh shammy go oom. I haven't seen it. rogues don't go ooe and then sit their useless for the remainder of the fight. fury got its TG hit modifier reduced so it could manage to use their always full rage bar. maybe pallies should be given a shorter cooldown and GCD so we can use our mana lol.
i'm not sure what your point was, but before you start asking for a nerf, consider that we are not unique in this and a nerf would unnecessarily make us the laughing stock of WotLK just like we've been for a while already.
this thread was in response to posters suggesting that at lvl 70 mana is of any concern to a Ret pally. i dont make any suggestion other than mana @ 70 is NOT an issue.
i will bring up a point about lack of spell ranks in a Ret's book. mana regen probably tapers off at lvl 80. this does not mean at level 70 we should have unlimited mana. spell ranks would have fixed this. Judgement of the Wise could have been 20% return at 70 and 33% at 75 with rank 2. the only usable offensive spells i have with ranks is HoJ and Consecration(HoJ could easily be 1 rank).
usually as you level up, you get greater ranks of spells. this usually keeps some sort of balance to each class. how can they control pally dmg at lvl 70 w/o nerfing overall dmg at lvl 80. without any ranks, they cant.
i will not assume to know how to design a class or how to program game mechanics. but i do know bad product when i see it.
-stacking 2 Ret auras in raid(wasnt that fixed in patch 0.9?)
-making a pally's bottom tier unmitigated dmg(Crusader Strike all over again)
-leaving bugs in the game but adding new content(anyone see my screenie of me invinsible vs Netherspite?)
-wtf, in BC they made new stats(+ArP, +Haste, +Exp, etc) without even figuring out how to use +Spirit which was from WoW day 1...WotLK, +Spi still sucks for most.
edit to include:
no, you made a bug. then you fixed the bug you made. Seal and Judgement of Light were fine before. another example of making a bandaid instead of fixing the global variable.
it just seems to me that the designers have good ideas, but the implementers are complete idiots.
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:26pm by tommyguns
i will bring up a point about lack of spell ranks in a Ret's book. mana regen probably tapers off at lvl 80. this does not mean at level 70 we should have unlimited mana. spell ranks would have fixed this. Judgement of the Wise could have been 20% return at 70 and 33% at 75 with rank 2. the only usable offensive spells i have with ranks is HoJ and Consecration(HoJ could easily be 1 rank).
usually as you level up, you get greater ranks of spells. this usually keeps some sort of balance to each class. how can they control pally dmg at lvl 70 w/o nerfing overall dmg at lvl 80. without any ranks, they cant.
i will not assume to know how to design a class or how to program game mechanics. but i do know bad product when i see it.
-stacking 2 Ret auras in raid(wasnt that fixed in patch 0.9?)
-making a pally's bottom tier unmitigated dmg(Crusader Strike all over again)
-leaving bugs in the game but adding new content(anyone see my screenie of me invinsible vs Netherspite?)
-wtf, in BC they made new stats(+ArP, +Haste, +Exp, etc) without even figuring out how to use +Spirit which was from WoW day 1...WotLK, +Spi still sucks for most.
edit to include:
Quote:
We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.
no, you made a bug. then you fixed the bug you made. Seal and Judgement of Light were fine before. another example of making a bandaid instead of fixing the global variable.
it just seems to me that the designers have good ideas, but the implementers are complete idiots.
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:26pm by tommyguns
Quote:
-stacking 2 Ret auras in raid(wasnt that fixed in patch 0.9?)
I noticed this the other day too. The Ret talented haste buff stacks too as a result but I figure this may be a bug that Blizzard will fix (ret aura stacking).
Seems there are many flavors of ret auras, lol.
Sanctified Retribution - increases dam by 2%(soon to be 3%). max rank 1/1
Imp Ret aura - increased ret aura dam by 25/50%. 2/2
Swift retribution - increases all haste by 1/2/3%. 3/3
Seems like they should stack(but only to provide the improvement one of them may be lacking, not to double the effect of the aura) as there are 3 distinct talents that are not requisites of each other in order to spec.
Sanctified Retribution - increases dam by 2%(soon to be 3%). max rank 1/1
Imp Ret aura - increased ret aura dam by 25/50%. 2/2
Swift retribution - increases all haste by 1/2/3%. 3/3
Seems like they should stack(but only to provide the improvement one of them may be lacking, not to double the effect of the aura) as there are 3 distinct talents that are not requisites of each other in order to spec.
Tommyguns, I'm not sure why you used the real mana cost numbers of abilities as all of the abilities you listed are based on a percent of base mana, but I decided to rate this up because of the work invested.
Anyway, you noted Flash of Light as 3.0 seconds.
Isn't it 1.5 seconds? I may be reading this in a wrong way (maybe you meant you cast Flash of Light and you are not at 3.0 seconds into your rotation), please explain.
Another thing to note is that you stated as judge+6 cleanses is a 9 seconds rotation, it is in fact 10.5 as Judgement now inccurs GCD. Same goes for judge+3 Flash of Light. Again, might be misreading you.
Thanks for the numerical analysis,
Yuval.
Anyway, you noted Flash of Light as 3.0 seconds.
Isn't it 1.5 seconds? I may be reading this in a wrong way (maybe you meant you cast Flash of Light and you are not at 3.0 seconds into your rotation), please explain.
Another thing to note is that you stated as judge+6 cleanses is a 9 seconds rotation, it is in fact 10.5 as Judgement now inccurs GCD. Same goes for judge+3 Flash of Light. Again, might be misreading you.
Thanks for the numerical analysis,
Yuval.
ok, i'm sorry if I came across as agrueing. I just thought maybe you were starting a new thread to continue the OP pally thoughts...
also just a note, mana regen % and mana cost % will be the same at 80. this means a pure dps cycle should be about even on mana even at 80 and one using all the utility that ret has now will be running out only very slowly.
also just a note, mana regen % and mana cost % will be the same at 80. this means a pure dps cycle should be about even on mana even at 80 and one using all the utility that ret has now will be running out only very slowly.
Quote:
I'm not sure why you used the real mana cost numbers of abilities as all of the abilities you listed are based on a percent of base mana,
used human as a point of reference. all races will be somewhat close to this.
Quote:
Anyway, you noted Flash of Light as 3.0 seconds.
Isn't it 1.5 seconds? I may be reading this in a wrong way (maybe you meant you cast Flash of Light and you are not at 3.0 seconds into your rotation), please explain.
Another thing to note is that you stated as judge+6 cleanses is a 9 seconds rotation, it is in fact 10.5 as Judgement now inccurs GCD. Same goes for judge+3 Flash of Light. Again, might be misreading you.
Isn't it 1.5 seconds? I may be reading this in a wrong way (maybe you meant you cast Flash of Light and you are not at 3.0 seconds into your rotation), please explain.
Another thing to note is that you stated as judge+6 cleanses is a 9 seconds rotation, it is in fact 10.5 as Judgement now inccurs GCD. Same goes for judge+3 Flash of Light. Again, might be misreading you.
oops, i put a GCD on FoL(fixed). made it 5 cleanses. thx
woot, thanks to people complaining about this we will only be getting 15% now... no more consecrating or endless mana even on our normal dps 'rotation'. I guess endless resources isn't for pallies. only other dpsers.... and here I was aall excited to play my ret again lol. oh and our damage (which was fine before according to them) got additional nerfs even past what they said they were gonna do... so those hunters that I outgear but were close before will likely beat me in dps now... so much for ret being comparable in dps in this patch lol. I can't wait to see this hit live to see how this affects us.
as long as they scale it to lvl 80. maybe change it from base mana to % of total mana. im not concerned about the lack of +Int on our gear. since most of our offensive is instant attacks, we can overlook +Haste and add more Int. plus our Glyphs are mana friendly. TBD at lvl 80.
(dear Blizz, quit stalking my posts. or give me production credits)
(dear Blizz, quit stalking my posts. or give me production credits)
It was changed from 20% total to 33% base to make it less wanted by healer specs.
Now it's going from 33% to 15% because.. well.. I have no idea. Hunters can go AotV to restore mana. Shamans have Shamanistic Rage. Warriors, Feral Druids, and Rogues have no mana to begin with, and neither do DKs. Paladins doing nothing but their main three attacks will simply be running out of mana faster than they can restore it.
Divine Plea will delay it, not prevent it. It'll happen faster than the 45 second CD.
I can see paladins running around with Dark Runes, casting Sacrifice on tanks, even going engineering for Super Sapper Charges, whatever they can just to keep up mana.
As it is I sit around 50-75% mana depending on how often I cast Consecrate. That's just out, and I'll start choosing to not Divine Storm to conserve mana. That's just awesome. :-\
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 8:37pm by Ehcks
Now it's going from 33% to 15% because.. well.. I have no idea. Hunters can go AotV to restore mana. Shamans have Shamanistic Rage. Warriors, Feral Druids, and Rogues have no mana to begin with, and neither do DKs. Paladins doing nothing but their main three attacks will simply be running out of mana faster than they can restore it.
Divine Plea will delay it, not prevent it. It'll happen faster than the 45 second CD.
I can see paladins running around with Dark Runes, casting Sacrifice on tanks, even going engineering for Super Sapper Charges, whatever they can just to keep up mana.
As it is I sit around 50-75% mana depending on how often I cast Consecrate. That's just out, and I'll start choosing to not Divine Storm to conserve mana. That's just awesome. :-\
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 8:37pm by Ehcks
raid buffed with a holy pallies improved BoW, and hopefully a shammy with a mana totem i'll still definitely need to run with SotM up instead of SoV... yay, I get to play emo.... :( oh yeah, and forget about me healing you now.... not only will I be struggling harder than most to have competetive dps worth bringing again, but I won't have the extra mana to very useful anymore...
I love how according to blizzard both fury warriors and ret pallies had good pve dps - right about where they wanted it. both also apparently had too much resource generation. so what does blizz do? gives fury less hit penalty on specials so they can use up their resources and boost their dps as a consequence. turns around and nerfs pally dps (not just burst like they said either... I liked the changes they said they were doing), but also badly nerfs our resource generation... net effect = much less dps... yay. this xpac was looking so much more promising... instead we now have nothing unique worth bringing AND we won't hit hard AND we won't even have mana to throw some utility out there aannymore... way to knock us down and then kick us while we're still down... later when my gf isn't on my computer i'll prolly have to ask why on the beta forums... this seems sooo contrary to what blizz had been saying.
I love how according to blizzard both fury warriors and ret pallies had good pve dps - right about where they wanted it. both also apparently had too much resource generation. so what does blizz do? gives fury less hit penalty on specials so they can use up their resources and boost their dps as a consequence. turns around and nerfs pally dps (not just burst like they said either... I liked the changes they said they were doing), but also badly nerfs our resource generation... net effect = much less dps... yay. this xpac was looking so much more promising... instead we now have nothing unique worth bringing AND we won't hit hard AND we won't even have mana to throw some utility out there aannymore... way to knock us down and then kick us while we're still down... later when my gf isn't on my computer i'll prolly have to ask why on the beta forums... this seems sooo contrary to what blizz had been saying.
If this JotW nerf is permanent then we're just not going to be sustainable in long fights. 33% is a lot, but a rotation which returned as much mana as it used up just put us on the same level as...well, every other melee DPS class in the game.
I really, really hope this doesn't continue. It's just the wrong thing to nerf.
I really, really hope this doesn't continue. It's just the wrong thing to nerf.
Quote:
If this JotW nerf is permanent then we're just not going to be sustainable in long fights. 33% is a lot, but a rotation which returned as much mana as it used up just put us on the same level as...well, every other melee DPS class in the game.
ya i will make soloing Onyxia a tad tougher.
is anyone considering raid buffs? is anyone considing judgment swaping? is anyone considering Spiritual Attunement? did they take out Divine Plea!?! is anyone considering mana management(pun?)?
as a rogue you need to select your attacks based on you energy regen and combo pts, as a warrior you need to conserve your rage and change stance based on ability. currently as a Ret pally you are free to spam whatever and however, your only restriction being the GCD.
mana conservation is a technique. always has been. you consecrate like a fool and you pay the price. similar to mana whores like Holy Nova, Arcane Explosion, Rain of Fire, etc. you choose your dmg rotation to be most effective and more efficient. similar to choosing how to gear. except gearing for Ret is now on cruise control. if you find yourself going oom, adjust your spells(rotation, glyphs) or your gear(add Int, mp5).
um, when I log in later i'll double check the tooltip for all these abilities cause I feel like my numbers might actually be a little high. i'm at work and all I can go by is actual base mana times the % that each ability is supposed to cost. this is based on my Draenei paladin getting undresed while untalented a few weeks back to seee what Base mana was... 3933 mana.
ability costs are % first, regular cost second and as applicable cost with benediction last. this last cost should be the cost for any pve ret pally.
Seals - 14% - 551 - 496
Judgements - 5% - 197 - 177
Crusader Strike - 8% - 325 - 283
Divine Storm - 12% - 472 - 425
Consecration - 22% - 865 - 779
Hammer of Wrath - 12% - 475 - 425
Exorcism - 8% - 315 - 283
Holy Wrath - 20% - 787 - 708
Hammer of Justice - 3% - 118 - 106
Repentance - 9% - 354 - 319
Avenging Wrath - 8% - 315 - 283
Flash of Light - 8% - 315 - 315
Turn Evil - 9% - 354 - 354
Cleanse - 6% - 236 - 212
I'm not honestly sure why, but these numbers are all considereably higher than the numbers you had put up.
Mana Returns:
Judgement - 15% - 590
Replenushment - .25% per second - 9.8 MPS - 78 mana per judge
Blessing of Wisdom - 41 MP5 - 66 mana per judge
Judgement of Wisdom - 1% (8 second CD now) - 39 per judge
so assuming you judge exactly every 8 seconds you have:
Judge - 590
Replenishment - 78
BoW - 66
JoW - 39
Total - 773
8 second rotation of Judge, CS, DS and Consecration:
Judge - 177
CS - 283
DS - 425
Consecrate - 779
Total - 1664
this gives a net mana cost of 891 every 8 seconds. with the gear they'd intend for us at 70 we'd have 3933 mana self buffed for a total of 4.4 rotations lasting a total of 35 seconds before we are OOM now... if we don't use consecrate at all we lose a good portion of dps (mine hits for almost 300 each second at the moment which is nice even on single targets), but then we can last a lot longer with a net loss of 112 from only Judge, CS and DS. I have been using SoC on trash to make it easier on the healers and SoV on bosses. i'll have to start using SotM now just to be getting some more mana back... and definitely won't be using my Instant FoL on myself cause i'll need the healing done by someone else now.... if 33% was too much (by my math it would have resulted in a net loss of 183 lasting nearly 3 mins) then 15% is definitely too low. these abilities are 5%, 8%, 12% and 22% each 8 seconds for a total of 47% of mana per 8 seconds (42.3% after benediction). ret pallies are told to gear like warriors now. no int or mp5 on our gear. if that's the case our mana regen has to keep up with our mana useage a little better than letting us OOM in 35 seconds. raid buffed this will only be slightly better since replenishment and JoW both will have a tiny bit more mana returned (considering how little it is in the first place that's not gonna be a game breaking raid contribution to our mana...
ability costs are % first, regular cost second and as applicable cost with benediction last. this last cost should be the cost for any pve ret pally.
Seals - 14% - 551 - 496
Judgements - 5% - 197 - 177
Crusader Strike - 8% - 325 - 283
Divine Storm - 12% - 472 - 425
Consecration - 22% - 865 - 779
Hammer of Wrath - 12% - 475 - 425
Exorcism - 8% - 315 - 283
Holy Wrath - 20% - 787 - 708
Hammer of Justice - 3% - 118 - 106
Repentance - 9% - 354 - 319
Avenging Wrath - 8% - 315 - 283
Flash of Light - 8% - 315 - 315
Turn Evil - 9% - 354 - 354
Cleanse - 6% - 236 - 212
I'm not honestly sure why, but these numbers are all considereably higher than the numbers you had put up.
Mana Returns:
Judgement - 15% - 590
Replenushment - .25% per second - 9.8 MPS - 78 mana per judge
Blessing of Wisdom - 41 MP5 - 66 mana per judge
Judgement of Wisdom - 1% (8 second CD now) - 39 per judge
so assuming you judge exactly every 8 seconds you have:
Judge - 590
Replenishment - 78
BoW - 66
JoW - 39
Total - 773
8 second rotation of Judge, CS, DS and Consecration:
Judge - 177
CS - 283
DS - 425
Consecrate - 779
Total - 1664
this gives a net mana cost of 891 every 8 seconds. with the gear they'd intend for us at 70 we'd have 3933 mana self buffed for a total of 4.4 rotations lasting a total of 35 seconds before we are OOM now... if we don't use consecrate at all we lose a good portion of dps (mine hits for almost 300 each second at the moment which is nice even on single targets), but then we can last a lot longer with a net loss of 112 from only Judge, CS and DS. I have been using SoC on trash to make it easier on the healers and SoV on bosses. i'll have to start using SotM now just to be getting some more mana back... and definitely won't be using my Instant FoL on myself cause i'll need the healing done by someone else now.... if 33% was too much (by my math it would have resulted in a net loss of 183 lasting nearly 3 mins) then 15% is definitely too low. these abilities are 5%, 8%, 12% and 22% each 8 seconds for a total of 47% of mana per 8 seconds (42.3% after benediction). ret pallies are told to gear like warriors now. no int or mp5 on our gear. if that's the case our mana regen has to keep up with our mana useage a little better than letting us OOM in 35 seconds. raid buffed this will only be slightly better since replenishment and JoW both will have a tiny bit more mana returned (considering how little it is in the first place that's not gonna be a game breaking raid contribution to our mana...
Recent Visitors: 128
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (128)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- OOM Ret style
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC