Hi guys,
With some of the new talents now available I thought I would have a look at reworking my fire mage to be more efficient.
One thing I thought about and I'd like some feedback on is haste over dps.
I currently have a 3.0sec cast time for my fireball, with icey veins (I specced into frost just to get it, 2/48/11) I can cut it down to 2.7sec.
With a haste potion a quick burst down to 2.5sec.
What I was considering doing was trying to get down to the low 2.0/2.2sec mark by replacing some of my dps gems with haste ones.
Please correct me if I get the numbers wrong but I think its something like 24 or 25 haste points to a 0.1 cast time reduction.
So to drop my cast time by 0.3 I'd sacrifice around 75dps in gems bringing my dps down from 1179 to 1104.
Maybe even drop it down one more 0.1 and reduce my dps to 1079.
The idea being less dps but more of it plus with a longer cast time I'am open to be hit whereas with a shorter cast time I'd take less damage.(because I'am hitting them more)
In a raid situation like MH and up I dont think this would matter so much but with the expansion coming I'll be questing again, mainly solo, so I'am trying to find the happy place between raid and quest specs without nuking one thing over another.
I'am not keen on losing dps as I've strived to get a reasonable amount for my raid spec. but sometime less is more and thats what I'am thinking here.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Khaz%27goroth&n=Fl%C3%A4me (unbuffed)
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Haste over DpsFollow
I think you're confusing spell damage with damage per second (dps), spell damage is the attirbute on gear which increases how hard your spells hit, dps is a measurement of damage dealt over time.
I'm not sure of the exact numbers (haste to cast speed reduction, or what point in spell damage you should start stacking haste), but I think now would probably be a good point to start adding haste into your gear.
As long as you don't sacrifice too much plus damage for haste (I'm a fan of the reckless gems myself as then you get a boost to haste and damage) you should see an increase in your dps (as in output on damage meters). The downside of haste is that you will go through your mana quicker, but with the changes to raids encounters this shouldn't be something that has too much of an impact (as you'll be less at risk of going oom before the mob is dead), in solo play you may have to drink sooner, but you will have killed those mobs faster, so it's still a gain). So I'd say I'm pro-haste at the moment.
But, you might want to wait for some fire mage replies as I'm not sure if it will mess up with spell rotations/ignite procs.
I'm not sure of the exact numbers (haste to cast speed reduction, or what point in spell damage you should start stacking haste), but I think now would probably be a good point to start adding haste into your gear.
As long as you don't sacrifice too much plus damage for haste (I'm a fan of the reckless gems myself as then you get a boost to haste and damage) you should see an increase in your dps (as in output on damage meters). The downside of haste is that you will go through your mana quicker, but with the changes to raids encounters this shouldn't be something that has too much of an impact (as you'll be less at risk of going oom before the mob is dead), in solo play you may have to drink sooner, but you will have killed those mobs faster, so it's still a gain). So I'd say I'm pro-haste at the moment.
But, you might want to wait for some fire mage replies as I'm not sure if it will mess up with spell rotations/ignite procs.
OK so Fireball is talented 3 sec cast. You do realize Icy Veins only last for 20 secs right? Making it really not very good to calculate into your casting time as far as soloing and questing. But if you are counting IV @ 20% that would bring your cast time down to 2.4 secs (ish)and to cover than gap you'd need around 267ish haste. These numbers aren't perfect, (im frost atm just doing this from a numbers point of view). It threw me a little off because frostbolt cast time is 2.5 secs but with IV up it's 2.08 secs (but a full 20% would be 2.0 secs) not sure how much that little difference would translate into fires longer cast time. However I do think these numbers are close enough. I wouldn't rely on haste potions at all. costs money + with the new potion CD its not worth it especially for questing.
Oh and 2/48/11 is not a good spec now. Those 2 points in arcane do absolutely nothing for you, as AS only effects arcane spells now. 0/61/0 , 0/50/11 , or 11/50/0 are the new fire specs. Just depending on whether you want Living bomb, Focus Magic/clear casting, or Icy Veins.
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 1:03pm by Kuresta
Edited, Oct 28th 2008 5:07pm by Kuresta
Oh and 2/48/11 is not a good spec now. Those 2 points in arcane do absolutely nothing for you, as AS only effects arcane spells now. 0/61/0 , 0/50/11 , or 11/50/0 are the new fire specs. Just depending on whether you want Living bomb, Focus Magic/clear casting, or Icy Veins.
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 1:03pm by Kuresta
Edited, Oct 28th 2008 5:07pm by Kuresta
Kuresta wrote:
OK so Fireball is talented 3 sec cast. You do realize Icy Veins only last for 20 secs right? Making it really not very good to calculate into your casting time as far as soloing and questing. But if you are counting IV @ 20% that would bring your cast time down to 2.4 secs (ish)and to cover than gap you'd need around 267ish haste. These numbers aren't perfect, (im frost atm just doing this from a numbers point of view). It threw me a little off because frostbolt cast time is 2.5 secs but with IV up it's 2.08 secs (but a full 20% would be 2.0 secs) not sure how much that little difference would translate into fires longer cast time. However I do think these numbers are close enough. I wouldn't rely on haste potions at all. costs money + with the new potion CD its not worth it especially for questing.
Oh and 2/48/11 is not a good spec now. Those 2 points in arcane do absolutely nothing for you, as AS only effects arcane spells now. 0/61/0 or 0/50/11 are the new fire specs. Just depending on whether you want Living bomb or Icy Veins.
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 1:03pm by Kuresta
Oh and 2/48/11 is not a good spec now. Those 2 points in arcane do absolutely nothing for you, as AS only effects arcane spells now. 0/61/0 or 0/50/11 are the new fire specs. Just depending on whether you want Living bomb or Icy Veins.
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 1:03pm by Kuresta
Or 11/50/0 (my current spec).
As others have stated. 2/48/11 is not a good spec anymore since the talent change. You really threw away a lot of talent points in your build (check out our thread on 3.0 talents and specs in this forum either on this page or the page before) to get an idea of what to spend points on.
Haste is good, it is a dps increase, but a dpm stays the same while adding +dmg increases your dps and your dpm. Your gear seems decent enough to start adding some haste, but as recommended I would only do it for reckless gems (pyrestones preferably).
11/50/0 also at the moment, tried the 0/50/11 but really think i like the focus magic better at this time. Over 3k on brut as 11/50/0 this week.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I havent played in 2 monthes and have just swapped servers so still trying to catch up on all the changes and what they mean.
I didnt look at the new arcane tree as I thought the 2 points I had in there was to reduce my AoE threat which in the past seeemd to work.
But I will look at the new talents post here and do a repec accordingly.
Yes I meant spell damage, its part of the dps calculation, and yes IV is only a short term solution but I thought better than nothing and at the time when 2/48/11 was the talents to have it was the way to go.
Looking at the arcane tree and Anobix's 11/50/0,gear haste wouldnt be as big an issue for you as you have plenty of haste related stats in your gear whereas I dont.
For me to lose IV with what I have I think would hurt me, to lose Subtlety would hurt as well as I use it in my AoE rotation to reduce threat.
Also you dont have Living Bomb so it cant be that big of a deal.
So from I can see you've let slip IV and the talents you had to put in there to get it and replaced it with arcane talents that give you better hit and mana reduction talents.
Again with your haste gear and the fact your 4/6 in Sunwell and I'am 1/4 in BT your spec would and probaly does help you signicantly.
But for what I have I'am not so sure the same spec would be as beneficial.
I have to at this point chose +damage or haste whereas you have a good deal of both and dont need to make a choice.
And I'am guessing less spell damage but more often is the way to go so I'll try replacing some of those +spell damage gems I have.
I also noticed in the 11/50/0 tree Pyro Blast is selected but not Blast Wave....to me thats interesting.
Is that only to get to the next row in the fire tree, because of its cast time I never use pyro, I only ever had it selected so I could get Blast Wave for my AoE rotation.
That was also recommended to me on a thread in these forums so I'am not so sure of why that selection has changed.
Thanks for the help :)
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:20pm by RodStorm
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:29pm by RodStorm
I havent played in 2 monthes and have just swapped servers so still trying to catch up on all the changes and what they mean.
I didnt look at the new arcane tree as I thought the 2 points I had in there was to reduce my AoE threat which in the past seeemd to work.
But I will look at the new talents post here and do a repec accordingly.
Yes I meant spell damage, its part of the dps calculation, and yes IV is only a short term solution but I thought better than nothing and at the time when 2/48/11 was the talents to have it was the way to go.
Looking at the arcane tree and Anobix's 11/50/0,gear haste wouldnt be as big an issue for you as you have plenty of haste related stats in your gear whereas I dont.
For me to lose IV with what I have I think would hurt me, to lose Subtlety would hurt as well as I use it in my AoE rotation to reduce threat.
Also you dont have Living Bomb so it cant be that big of a deal.
So from I can see you've let slip IV and the talents you had to put in there to get it and replaced it with arcane talents that give you better hit and mana reduction talents.
Again with your haste gear and the fact your 4/6 in Sunwell and I'am 1/4 in BT your spec would and probaly does help you signicantly.
But for what I have I'am not so sure the same spec would be as beneficial.
I have to at this point chose +damage or haste whereas you have a good deal of both and dont need to make a choice.
And I'am guessing less spell damage but more often is the way to go so I'll try replacing some of those +spell damage gems I have.
I also noticed in the 11/50/0 tree Pyro Blast is selected but not Blast Wave....to me thats interesting.
Is that only to get to the next row in the fire tree, because of its cast time I never use pyro, I only ever had it selected so I could get Blast Wave for my AoE rotation.
That was also recommended to me on a thread in these forums so I'am not so sure of why that selection has changed.
Thanks for the help :)
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:20pm by RodStorm
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:29pm by RodStorm
RodStorm wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys.
I havent played in 2 monthes and have just swapped servers so still trying to catch up on all the changes and what they mean.
I didnt look at the new arcane tree as I thought the 2 points I had in there was to reduce my AoE threat which in the past seeemd to work.
But I will look at the new talents post here and do a repec accordingly.
Yes I meant spell damage, its part of the dps calculation, and yes IV is only a short term solution but I thought better than nothing and at the time when 2/48/11 was the talents to have it was the way to go.
Looking at the arcane tree and Anobix's 11/50/0,gear haste wouldnt be as big an issue for you as you have plenty of haste related stats in your gear whereas I dont.
For me to lose IV with what I have I think would hurt me, to lose Subtlety would hurt as well as I use it in my AoE rotation to reduce threat.
Also you dont have Living Bomb so it cant be that big of a deal.
So from I can see you've let slip IV and the talents you had to put in there to get it and replaced it with arcane talents that give you better hit and mana reduction talents.
Again with your haste gear and the fact your 4/6 in Sunwell and I'am 1/4 in BT your spec would and probaly does help you signicantly.
But for what I have I'am not so sure the same spec would be as beneficial.
I have to at this point chose +damage or haste whereas you have a good deal of both and dont need to make a choice.
And I'am guessing less spell damage but more often is the way to go so I'll try replacing some of those +spell damage gems I have.
I also noticed in the 11/50/0 tree Pyro Blast is selected but not Blast Wave....to me thats interesting.
Is that only to get to the next row in the fire tree, because of its cast time I never use pyro, I only ever had it selected so I could get Blast Wave for my AoE rotation.
That was also recommended to me on a thread in these forums so I'am not so sure of why that selection has changed.
Thanks for the help :)
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:20pm by RodStorm
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:29pm by RodStorm
I havent played in 2 monthes and have just swapped servers so still trying to catch up on all the changes and what they mean.
I didnt look at the new arcane tree as I thought the 2 points I had in there was to reduce my AoE threat which in the past seeemd to work.
But I will look at the new talents post here and do a repec accordingly.
Yes I meant spell damage, its part of the dps calculation, and yes IV is only a short term solution but I thought better than nothing and at the time when 2/48/11 was the talents to have it was the way to go.
Looking at the arcane tree and Anobix's 11/50/0,gear haste wouldnt be as big an issue for you as you have plenty of haste related stats in your gear whereas I dont.
For me to lose IV with what I have I think would hurt me, to lose Subtlety would hurt as well as I use it in my AoE rotation to reduce threat.
Also you dont have Living Bomb so it cant be that big of a deal.
So from I can see you've let slip IV and the talents you had to put in there to get it and replaced it with arcane talents that give you better hit and mana reduction talents.
Again with your haste gear and the fact your 4/6 in Sunwell and I'am 1/4 in BT your spec would and probaly does help you signicantly.
But for what I have I'am not so sure the same spec would be as beneficial.
I have to at this point chose +damage or haste whereas you have a good deal of both and dont need to make a choice.
And I'am guessing less spell damage but more often is the way to go so I'll try replacing some of those +spell damage gems I have.
I also noticed in the 11/50/0 tree Pyro Blast is selected but not Blast Wave....to me thats interesting.
Is that only to get to the next row in the fire tree, because of its cast time I never use pyro, I only ever had it selected so I could get Blast Wave for my AoE rotation.
That was also recommended to me on a thread in these forums so I'am not so sure of why that selection has changed.
Thanks for the help :)
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:20pm by RodStorm
Edited, Oct 24th 2008 11:29pm by RodStorm
IV is a decent dps boost, BUT, fire has increased even moreso to depend on crits. I have rocking, raid buffed on a mob around 50% chance to crit (probably closer to 55%). If you check out the talent hot streak, every time I get 2 crits in a row I get a free pyroblast (my reasoning for taking pyroblast). So basically I throw focus magic on someone who crits a lot (moonkin, ele shaman, disc priest, paladin, etc) which gives them +3% crit for 30 minutes (excellent) and every time they crit, for 10 seconds I get 3% crit (and it can constantly refresh). So the more crits I have, the more damage I do, more mana I get back (thanks MoE), and then more pyroblasts which add another crit and another dot possibility (although hot streak does not proc off of pyroblast crits). I did not take Living Bomb, Blast Wave, or Dragon's breath because I am not AoEing very much. Blizzard can crit now (woot) so I have been using that + TLC (lightning capacitor) while targeting a mob to get a lot of crits and free lightning bolts shoot out pretty much, so Blizzard + AE have been my AoEs lately.
Granted, I do have a lot more passive haste/damage than you do, you are still right around the marker where just finding the balance of crit, hit, damage, and haste becomes great, as now 1% crit has greatly increased in value (as I marked before).
Ta for the reply mate, TLC is a new one on me so I'll have to do a bit of research about it.
So basically you have replaced the "traditional" AoE with a different variation....not bad.
Its food for thought,I still AoE a fair bit in MH when there so I dont know how my overall dps would go with Dragons Breath and Blast Wave replaced as thats virtually half my AoE rotation gone but if I try it your way at my level it might just work :)
I did try to find the 3.0 spec thread you mentioned but couldnt so I just looked you and Toxicity up on the Armoury.
With the Reckless Pyrestone gems you mentioned I wont lose as much spell damage but my haste wont increse that much either.
Its 24 or 25 haste points for 0.1 second cast reduction so instead of using just a +10 haste gem it would take more gems to increase my haste.
Wouldnt it be easier to just increase my haste, suffer a spell damage loss but regain some of it by casting less damage more often?
I dont know much about Focus Magic either but I'll read up on it,I'll try the 11/50/0 build and see what happens.
At the end of the day I just want to be the best with what I have available to me.
Oh....and MoE???
Sorry thats a new one to.
Thanks for the help.
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 4:54am by RodStorm
So basically you have replaced the "traditional" AoE with a different variation....not bad.
Its food for thought,I still AoE a fair bit in MH when there so I dont know how my overall dps would go with Dragons Breath and Blast Wave replaced as thats virtually half my AoE rotation gone but if I try it your way at my level it might just work :)
I did try to find the 3.0 spec thread you mentioned but couldnt so I just looked you and Toxicity up on the Armoury.
With the Reckless Pyrestone gems you mentioned I wont lose as much spell damage but my haste wont increse that much either.
Its 24 or 25 haste points for 0.1 second cast reduction so instead of using just a +10 haste gem it would take more gems to increase my haste.
Wouldnt it be easier to just increase my haste, suffer a spell damage loss but regain some of it by casting less damage more often?
I dont know much about Focus Magic either but I'll read up on it,I'll try the 11/50/0 build and see what happens.
At the end of the day I just want to be the best with what I have available to me.
Oh....and MoE???
Sorry thats a new one to.
Thanks for the help.
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 4:54am by RodStorm
In reality, Haste and Damage are just about 1:1 in terms of dps values, where depending on gear, etc, haste can be around 1.04:1 damage, but since 3.0 it has changed a bit.
The thread may have been called wotlk talent builds or something, I will try to find it for you.
-- http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=7;mid=122348450994191774;num=41;page=1 was on the first page. called spec after 3.02. I believe there is another one as well that Poldaran started.
MoE is Master of Elements, the talent that gives back mana on crits. Depending on your situation of needing to AoE you can drop a point here or there to pick up blastwave or dragons breath or you can go to a 10/51/0 build that gives you clearcasting but living bomb or another aoe talent to be picked up.
I also ignored burning soul for the thread reduction as tanks can generate a lot more threat now than before.
If you want to see what type of difference the changes you plan to make will do head to codeplex.com (I beleive) and download rawr (or just google rawr theorycraft tool) it should be one of the first hits. you import your character from the armory and can play around and see what will optimize the most dps for you.
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 1:03am by Anobix
The thread may have been called wotlk talent builds or something, I will try to find it for you.
-- http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.html?wclass=7;mid=122348450994191774;num=41;page=1 was on the first page. called spec after 3.02. I believe there is another one as well that Poldaran started.
MoE is Master of Elements, the talent that gives back mana on crits. Depending on your situation of needing to AoE you can drop a point here or there to pick up blastwave or dragons breath or you can go to a 10/51/0 build that gives you clearcasting but living bomb or another aoe talent to be picked up.
I also ignored burning soul for the thread reduction as tanks can generate a lot more threat now than before.
If you want to see what type of difference the changes you plan to make will do head to codeplex.com (I beleive) and download rawr (or just google rawr theorycraft tool) it should be one of the first hits. you import your character from the armory and can play around and see what will optimize the most dps for you.
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 1:03am by Anobix
Hey mate thanks with your help with this, I do have Rawr as you suggested some time ago to get it so I did.
I did a spec change to 11/50/0 going by your tree mainly
I'll have to do a few more Kara runs to get the Lightning Capacitor from Illhoof but it looks like something good to have going by its stats.
I tried to get Living Bomb to help bolster my AoE now I dont have Flamestrike but I run out of points beforehand so it will have to wait.
I also kept Dragons Breath by changing what you had for MoE like you suggested.
I'll give Focus Magic a go, if I continue to raid as much as I did before my break I can see it being beneficial but soloing/questing I cant really see the use.
Whatever I'am short on now I'll make up when I start levelling again in a couple of weeks :)
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 10:09am by RodStorm
I did a spec change to 11/50/0 going by your tree mainly
I'll have to do a few more Kara runs to get the Lightning Capacitor from Illhoof but it looks like something good to have going by its stats.
I tried to get Living Bomb to help bolster my AoE now I dont have Flamestrike but I run out of points beforehand so it will have to wait.
I also kept Dragons Breath by changing what you had for MoE like you suggested.
I'll give Focus Magic a go, if I continue to raid as much as I did before my break I can see it being beneficial but soloing/questing I cant really see the use.
Whatever I'am short on now I'll make up when I start levelling again in a couple of weeks :)
Edited, Oct 25th 2008 10:09am by RodStorm
11/50/0 is nice to get Focus Magic is nice for raiding and Heroics, but yeah soloing it wont be useful, at all. Just base it whatever you're going to be doing more. Haste isn't as important as it used to be so don't put too much emphasis on it. Slowly building some up will help you but keep working on dmg and crit
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