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Why would the +3% DPS from Vengeance be worth it? And what talents do I skip out on for a measly 3% DPS?
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What makes Vengeance worthy?Follow
For one thing its 6% dam, not 3%(+3% dam from physical AND holy). Normal PvE ret looks like this. PvP ret has some harder choices to make, not being an avid PvPer I'll leave that to someone else.
I already considered what you said, and if it IS 3% from HOLY and PHYSICAL, what attack do you have that hits for both at the same time? DS only gets 3% because its Physical. Judgements only get 3% because they are holy. Even if SoC/SoB procs, the proc only gets the 3% Holy boost. A.K.A, the bonuses don't stack unless there is someone who can prove this with a blue post or something equivalent.
LOL - its actually 3% to spell and melee damage and it can stack up to three times for a total bonus of 9% - if you still consider that 'measly' then the answer is 'don't take it' otherwise, here's my profile and I'm pretty happy with my results so far - http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Kargath&n=Demonah
Edit -
Since you're ret that means that you've always got a seal burning which means that every time you smack a mob you're doing physical damage from your weapon and holy damage from your seal, not to mention when you judge people to boot.
From the tone of your post I take it that you don't care for this tallent but someone's trying to force you to take it for some reason?
Edited, Oct 23rd 2008 5:59pm by rusttle
Edit -
Quote:
I already considered what you said, and if it IS 3% from HOLY and PHYSICAL, what attack do you have that hits for both at the same time?
Since you're ret that means that you've always got a seal burning which means that every time you smack a mob you're doing physical damage from your weapon and holy damage from your seal, not to mention when you judge people to boot.
From the tone of your post I take it that you don't care for this tallent but someone's trying to force you to take it for some reason?
Edited, Oct 23rd 2008 5:59pm by rusttle
mahlerite wrote:
For one thing its 6% dam, not 3%(+3% dam from physical AND holy). Normal PvE ret looks like this. PvP ret has some harder choices to make, not being an avid PvPer I'll leave that to someone else.
If a +3% bonus to damage stacks three times, I think that's a +9% bonus when it's fully stacked. Nonetheless, I agree, I can't imagine where a PVE Retadin would put those 3 talent points and think he'd get a better return on the investment.
As rusttle and HoyadinFTW above me kindly stated when the talent is maxed the bonus is 3% to physical and holy damage caused, and stacks up to 3 times to a total of 9% bonus damage to each source. Considering all your damage as a Paladin is either holy or physical it can be counted as a 9% bonus to damage done, at least when you can easily stack it fully like in PvE.
Why should you take it? Well let's look at some other selections you have done in the tree:
You took 3/3 in Crusade which increases your damage by 3% and another 3% when fighting Humanoids, Demons, Undead and Elementals, let's count it as a 6% all the time, it's obviously inferior to a 9% bonus (again, in an encounter where you can easily stack them up, every PvE encounter for example).
Two Handed Specialization is rather similar as well (though it doesn't increase your damage from Consecration or Exorcism for example).
A side note for Vengeance, it can be dispelled (or at least I've seen mobs dispel this from me, I'll check it further), this is a two edged sword. On one hand if it's dispelled you lose the bonus (though it will be reapplied without you needing to waste mana or GCD just for that), on the other hand it can serve as a buffer for more important buffs on you such as HoTs.
Hope I helped,
Yuval.
Why should you take it? Well let's look at some other selections you have done in the tree:
You took 3/3 in Crusade which increases your damage by 3% and another 3% when fighting Humanoids, Demons, Undead and Elementals, let's count it as a 6% all the time, it's obviously inferior to a 9% bonus (again, in an encounter where you can easily stack them up, every PvE encounter for example).
Two Handed Specialization is rather similar as well (though it doesn't increase your damage from Consecration or Exorcism for example).
A side note for Vengeance, it can be dispelled (or at least I've seen mobs dispel this from me, I'll check it further), this is a two edged sword. On one hand if it's dispelled you lose the bonus (though it will be reapplied without you needing to waste mana or GCD just for that), on the other hand it can serve as a buffer for more important buffs on you such as HoTs.
Hope I helped,
Yuval.
I understand the stacking makes its +9%, but I honestly haven't been in many fights where it gets a chance to stack. Don't get me wrong its excellent for PvE.
But looking it over, I am liking it more than 2H specialization...
But looking it over, I am liking it more than 2H specialization...
Decent build - http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xZVfrtbIucMsxzAo
More for pvp.
Vengance stacks each time you get a crit so you can build up stacks over several mobs if that is the case, once you have a stack of 3 up each crit resets the 30 second timer so you maintain the 9% so if you keep going you will retain the additional damage.
More for pvp.
Vengance stacks each time you get a crit so you can build up stacks over several mobs if that is the case, once you have a stack of 3 up each crit resets the 30 second timer so you maintain the 9% so if you keep going you will retain the additional damage.
Why not Eye for an Eye?
Its effectively a massive damage shield and when I've gotten curious about my combat results after dying, I've often times seen multiple EfaE hits against my attackers for several hundred points each.
Figure with the average PvP opponent having a minimum of a 30% crit rating, that means every third hit/spell on you is going to be returning the favor against the other guy, so for example, my feral can easily bite for around 4-5k, meaning that'd nail me back for 800-1000 while my mage's 4k fireballs are doing 800 to her per hit.
I also went with improved ret aura - since we lost the aura that jacks up holy damage then that means we're either using our DS or our AC aura since the AC is insignificant, especially in PvP.
Its effectively a massive damage shield and when I've gotten curious about my combat results after dying, I've often times seen multiple EfaE hits against my attackers for several hundred points each.
Figure with the average PvP opponent having a minimum of a 30% crit rating, that means every third hit/spell on you is going to be returning the favor against the other guy, so for example, my feral can easily bite for around 4-5k, meaning that'd nail me back for 800-1000 while my mage's 4k fireballs are doing 800 to her per hit.
I also went with improved ret aura - since we lost the aura that jacks up holy damage then that means we're either using our DS or our AC aura since the AC is insignificant, especially in PvP.
Vengeance is +9% to all damage at almost all times. It comes to a full stack fast, and stays for 30 seconds, usually long enough to get to the next target.
There's really nothing to take instead.
There's really nothing to take instead.
Ehcks wrote:
Vengeance is +9% to all damage at almost all times. It comes to a full stack fast, and stays for 30 seconds, usually long enough to get to the next target.
There's really nothing to take instead.
There's really nothing to take instead.
Your job as a Ret Paladin is to do damage (and in a party or raid setting to give buffs, off-heal in an emergency, off-tank in an emergency, cleanse, etc. But most of the time still DPS)
If you have a talent that adds to your DPS output (at 9% the majority of the time as many have said here) why wouldn't you take it? That is like your boss saying that with your potential talent you deserve a 9% raise and you saying, "Nah... 9% is meh... you keep it."
Quote:
Why not Eye for an Eye?
Its effectively a massive damage shield and when I've gotten curious about my combat results after dying, I've often times seen multiple EfaE hits against my attackers for several hundred points each.
Its effectively a massive damage shield and when I've gotten curious about my combat results after dying, I've often times seen multiple EfaE hits against my attackers for several hundred points each.
EfaE is not a damage shield, you still take 100% of the damage of a crit it just causes 10/20% damage to whoever hit you.
I don't have it as I feel that there are other points that are better spent in terms of me and my mentality and play style which is all out offense. This does not mean that I will not [pve/pvp as appropriate] heal/cleanse/offtank/be the healer if he dies/tank(ish)if the tank dies and so on.
Trust me and the others, vengeance is an excellent talent as unless you spend a lot of time stopping in between kills or have a very low crit chance it is almost always up, as any decent ret pally will have ~30% crit anyway.
Another way to look at it is why go for crusade? because (against humanoids) it does 9% additional damage. Vengeance does the same but you have to work a bit for it :)
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