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TG Buff ... But is it enough to make it playableFollow

#1 Oct 21 2008 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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As I posted recently in the hunter forums, we increased the armor on level 83 raid bosses by 10%. This will be a nerf to warrior dps.

In the case of Arms and Protection, we don't think any adjustment is necessary at this time. Arms is doing very competitive dps, while Fury has fallen behind. We experimented with lowering the proc chance of Sudden Death, from where Arms gets a lot of its damage, but weren't happy with the result and ultimately decided to buff Fury instead.

First, we increased the percentage of AP that contributes to Bloodthirst from 45% to 50%.

Second, we reduced the hit penalty on special attacks on Titan's Grip from -12% to -5%.

As I have said before, we have been somewhat reluctant to give Titan's Grip such a huge buff. It is now likely more powerful than several other talents in the tree and risks being the 51-point talent to which all other classes compare their 51-point talent. Nevertheless, we feel it was the right change to make.

When a Fury warrior missed a Slam or Bloodthirst on a boss, they ended up building up a lot of extra rage that couldn't be spent fast enough. I understand some players suggested an additional attack for Fury, and that is something we may still consider when we see players hit 80 and start experimenting more with the build. But it would be a very big change that involved touching talent trees and glyphs, as well as a lot of time necessary to iterate on the right values. The Titan's Grip change by contrast was a simple one, and judging by the number of players who have asked for it throughout beta, one that will be welcomed by the community.


I never in my wildest dreams thought they'd go that far with the miss penalty, but despite what GC's saying, they clearly realised that any more is making the talent a waste. Seriously, if they really thought the talent was now too overpowered, they'd make it 10%, which I'm sure would be just as acceptable. 5% indicates to me an "admission of guilt" on their part, and they are rectifying it while trying to cover it up with a little disclaimer ;-)

I wonder if the "Experiment" they performed on SD proc chance was the 3.0.3 change, and if they're rather going to switch it back up to where it is currently.

I fiddled around last night with a long fight (target dummy), and can unequivocally confirm that the lack of the extra attack makes Fury lackluster ... I found myself spending loooong stretch waiting for something to happen while BT and WW was on cooldown, and even more noticeable when you hit BT and WW at around the same time your auto attacks go off ... then you sit around, not only with nothing to do, but with nothing happening for 3 seconds. Hell, I even started weaving in untalented slams to break it up a bit.

Now, I never noticed this deficiency while questing, as the fights are over so quickly. But on long sustained dps runs ... there's very definitely a problem. The actual DPS I was putting out was noticeably lower than Arms as well (but then we knew that). This change might help with the DPS side of Fury, but it's not going to change things that much from an interactivity point of view ... right now Arms wins there ... hands down.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2008 4:30pm by robertlofthouse
#2 Oct 22 2008 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if it's an "admission of guilt", but I'm sure that they realized that they made a mistake with 15% and 12%. IMO 10% would not have gone far enough considering that they're increasing the armor of raid bosses by 10% to keep rogue and hunter DPS in check. If they raised the armor 10% and left TG at 12% or 10%, Fury would still have been far below the other physical damage classes and specs.

I do understand their point about the 51 point talent though. If fury warriors get too big of an increase in DPS for 1 talent point, all the other DPS classes/specs are going to QQ that their 51 point talents are way underpowered by comparison, and I think that is a valid argument. TG is a passive ability, whereas pretty much all other 51 point talents are active, meaning that you have to actively sacrifice something to get or keep the benefit from the talent. Rogues' HfB costs 30 energy every 30 seconds to keep up the 9% extra damage. If you fail to keep it up, it'll cost you in DPS. Yes Fury warriors give up some hit, but it's something that you can compensate for wholly by itemization, and I think 5% is totally reasonable. Getting to 10% and 14% special hit cap for PvP and PvE respectively should not be that difficult.

I think your point about interactivity is interesting though. Arms has totally new dynamics, where fury is relatively unchanged. Arms is now quite different from what it was. It involves considerable proc watching, whereas before it was pretty much forced to be a swing timer watching spec. Fury is very much the same as it ever was. You just get to use 2 2h weapons. I think people are having so much more fun with Arms because it's so much different than it used to be.
#3 Oct 22 2008 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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I fiddled around last night with a long fight (target dummy), and can unequivocally confirm that the lack of the extra attack makes Fury lackluster ... I found myself spending loooong stretch waiting for something to happen while BT and WW was on cooldown, and even more noticeable when you hit BT and WW at around the same time your auto attacks go off ... then you sit around, not only with nothing to do, but with nothing happening for 3 seconds. Hell, I even started weaving in untalented slams to break it up a bit.


I felt EXACTLY the same way, only without the benefit of hard numbers to support it. I bailed on my TG build last night because I found it kindof... 'bleh.' Too few keystone abilities to make up an effective rotation.

I was counting on the BT cooldown being lowered to 5 seconds (that's still coming, right?) to at least give me something else to do during the 10 seconds between WW. Seems like a WW-BT-BT rotation (with instant slams mixed in) should be interactive enough to make up for all the passives in the deepest 4 tiers of the tree.

The thing that really bothered me about the build, though, was having BT crit and then missing the instant Slam and having 3-4 seconds of auto-attack to wait through. 15% Penalty didnt just counterbalance TG, it also nerfed Bloodsurge and Unending Fury, which seem designed to synergise with TG. This effectively gutted deepest part of the tree. Glad to read its all being fixed.



The changes GC reported since yesterday seem like a dream. If the hit penalty ends up somewhere around 9-10% I'll be happy. Its significant enough to require some gearing effort to soft cap, but isnt unreasonable.



Edited, Oct 22nd 2008 1:27pm by soobooboo
#4 Oct 22 2008 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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i think itll make TG workable as a leveling talent, as when you first get it (60) youll start to have access to a lot more +hit gear. that combined with precision will actually make the fury 51-pt'er not completely useless.

it also means you wont have to be swimming in raid gear at 80 to get any kind of use out of the talent, which is always good. is it enough to save it? i dunno, but it is enough to make me want to try it when its patched in. i dont have the +hit gear to support a -15% penalty, but i think i could get by with a -12% (with precision and in max hit gear id have another 3-4% hit to make up before i was capped; way better than a 7-8% deficit).

on a similar note, im really baffled by blizzards general idea that one talent point should be about an X% increase in whatever the talent is supposed to do. thats been an argument on why TG cant be so strong, but the counter to that is....why not just make the rest of fury stronger? we still have something like 12 talent points dedicated to shouts, and none of those shout talents provide any other kind of benefit to what is now an inferior buff mechanic (due to range and duration limitations). if they wont make TG as strong as it should be, then how about adding something to early fury to make up some of that deficit? its a bit wrong to dump 20 points into fury early on and only see five or ten of those points actually increasing damage.
#5 Oct 23 2008 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
i think itll make TG workable as a leveling talent, as when you first get it (60) youll start to have access to a lot more +hit gear. that combined with precision will actually make the fury 51-pt'er not completely useless.

Yeah, agreed that it will now be "workable" (thank goodness for that), but will it be "Playable" ... in the same way Arms is not playable - heck, I realised last night that I don't even thunderclap or Heroic strike any more ... there's so much else to do ... not so with Fury at the moment ... it's boring to have the long breaks between damage ... and there's nothing to mix it up with ...

That being said, if it lands up by doing 2% more damage in a min/max scenario ... boring or not, it'll land up being the spec of choice for raiding.
Quor wrote:
it also means you wont have to be swimming in raid gear at 80 to get any kind of use out of the talent, which is always good. is it enough to save it? i dunno, but it is enough to make me want to try it when its patched in. i dont have the +hit gear to support a -15% penalty, but i think i could get by with a -12% (with precision and in max hit gear id have another 3-4% hit to make up before i was capped; way better than a 7-8% deficit).

You do mean that you could "get by with a -5%" penalty, not -12%? Yes, the overall miss rate is now half what it was for same level mobs (20% vs 10%) ... and yes, it'll be much easier to gear for those levels of hit ... and yes, I do think it'll save the talent as a DPS talent ... especially with the BT changes.
Quor wrote:
on a similar note, im really baffled by blizzards general idea that one talent point should be about an X% increase in whatever the talent is supposed to do. thats been an argument on why TG cant be so strong,

You and me both Buddy, you and me both .. I mean ... What was Blood thirst and Mortal strike ... they were defining talents of the trees ... you can't (could never) spec your warrior as DPS and not take either one ... What the comments from Blizz are telling me, is that they want the talent tiers to simply define availability of skills (ie, go deep in one tree, and you can't pick up a skill deep in another tree), and not to define the strength of the skills. I think that's wrong, your talents should become more and more powerful as you go down the tree, culminating in your top tier talent, which SHOULD be stronger than other talents.
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but the counter to that is....why not just make the rest of fury stronger? we still have something like 12 talent points dedicated to shouts, and none of those shout talents provide any other kind of benefit to what is now an inferior buff mechanic (due to range and duration limitations). if they wont make TG as strong as it should be, then how about adding something to early fury to make up some of that deficit? its a bit wrong to dump 20 points into fury early on and only see five or ten of those points actually increasing damage.

Well, they're trying to do that by buffing a few abilities (BT) here and there, but as you say, there's so much more that can be done with the Fury tree.

My take on it ... Arms was always a nasty tree, in my opinion, others may differ (speaking non PvP here). It was boring as hell with the lack of activity, didn't do enough damage, felt slow. So they concentrated on making it not so ... in fact they concentrated so hard on it, they actually fixed it. It does damage now, it's fun, even frantic, and very interactive to play. And they did it without adding anything new, just by revamping the talents, adding procs to existing abilities, and changed some numbers. Ok Bladestorm is new, but Arms is very good even without bladestorm.

The problem is that they seemed to have spent so much time on arms (and let's not forget Prot :D ), that Fury seems to have been left out in the cold (after all, it worked well before, so why concentrate on it). There's hardly any change to the structure of the tree, hardly any new features, and the new things they DID add, were removed, and the culprit it Titan's Grip. All they did was really add Titan's Grip, and decide that's all the tree needed, as Dual Wielding 2 handers is supposed to be Uber. TG has also contributed to the much slower pace which is Fury now ... it's total role reversal between the 2 DPS trees.

Don't get me wrong, I think TG as a talent IS powerful, and I love it (I'm spec'd TG now for dailies), but if that's all you're adding to the tree, then nerfing it into the ground leaves the tree weak. What they needed to do, was pay more attention to the whole tree. As you mention Quor - 12 points dedicated to shouts, does not counter a handful of points in arms which account for 20% of overall damage, or which give a generally unusable ability(overpower), and a generally unused ability(Rend) an actual place in the damage makeup.

Their problem now, is that they've run out of time ... they can't really change things that dramatically, cos they'd break it even worst than it is now .. and they know that. So we'll have to wait for a major content patch (3.1, or even 3.2) to even see any telling changes.

#6 Oct 23 2008 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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Their problem now, is that they've run out of time ... they can't really change things that dramatically, cos they'd break it even worst than it is now .. and they know that. So we'll have to wait for a major content patch (3.1, or even 3.2) to even see any telling changes.


thats exactly it i think. i remember GC saying something on beta about a number of warrior concerns and how they were on the table, but the devs were unsure as to whether theyd "get to them" this expansion. understandable, given the number of changes already and blizz's desire to actually meet their deadline, but at the same time disappointing to know that a number of core warrior issues (stance mechanics, self-healing compared to other classes etc.) may not be addressed for well over a year.
#7 Oct 24 2008 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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So maybe I missed something here... but are they really lowering the penaly on TG to 5%? And, is this change going to be impletmented when the x-pac comes out???

Edited, Oct 24th 2008 4:30pm by tbrady
#8 Oct 24 2008 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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tbrady wrote:
So maybe I missed something here... but are they really lowering the penaly on TG to 5%? And, is this change going to be impletmented when the x-pac comes out???

Edited, Oct 24th 2008 4:30pm by tbrady


Yes, the quote in the first post was from Ghostcrawler on the Beta forums, and it indicates that the TG hot penalty for specials will no longer be 15%, it will now be 5% (this is over and above the base miss 5% .. so 10% total, same level enemy). And it will probably come in a patch either before or just after the Xpac ... Quite possibly 3.0.3.
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