Sword PvP Build?Follow

Hi, this is my first post, regular reader, but I've not been playing WoW that long, so I'm only down with about 50% of the acronyms, so bear with me!
I've been PvPing and working on getting full epic gear since hitting 70. I've been doing ok, or, at least, I was until the patch came out!
I've got the S2 swords, and I was doing ok at 70 with Theophany's ShS spec but, as it seems that others are also experiencing, I've been getting owned since the patch came out. I've re-specced to something like 13-5-43 (tried out ShD, but couldn't suss it out so tried out my own ShS spec), and although I'm getting kills, I'm dying in seconds anytime there's more than one opponent, and when it's 1v1, I'm lucky to get the kill and survive!
I've just read about Theo's VARP spec, and I'm tempted to go for that when I log - it seems Imp Sprint is the new ShS - but I think I need some second opinions.
What would be the best sword spec for PvP that will let me go toe-to-toe with another player in battlegrounds and come away with some HP and dignity intact? In the meantime, I'm gonna try VARP with sword spec...

Much love for the Alla-K rogues! You guys have got me outta a lot of pickles!

Cheers.

Copied from the post below:

I just discovered you can get Overkill and Prep. This is my build i'm using now.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxboeGoVroMZZI0fdhhzd

For the FIRST time I was #4 in DPS. Managed to kill 3 mages rezzing from graveyard at FRR today back to back. It DOES grant a lot less survivability, but the offense it gives is just amazing.

Overkill = 25 energy hemo's and 25 energy evis's
Vigor, 120 energy for me
Deadly Brew, do double instant poison and it'll add crippling too. Double instant isn't ideal, but it is pretty nice for damage. Especially with a 26% proc
Cold Blood = 4k evis's whenever you want them
Preperation cools down Cold Blood
Still get 2min vanishes and 1min CoS
Still get Malice and Lethality
2 talents in Murder and 2 in Find Weakness for 8% damage increase

My gear is pretty bad for a 70, since I hit 70 two weeks ago, but this build makes me feel awesome. I encourage you to try it.

I'm a Night Elf though, so i'm not sure if it'll work for everyone. Shadowmeld is now an instant return-to-stealth ability for me if someones attacking me from range.

No Imp. Sprint but with all the extra spike damage i'm doing, I don't really care.

Just realized Overkill makes cheap shot cost 30 energy with this build too! ^_^

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I use two swords and absolutely devour nearly every class. I can kill warriors with complete ease now one on one. Mage's don't stand a chance once you get crippling on them. Once they use blink, trinket out of their frost nova/frost bolt and when you get close to them CoS. 5 seconds = dead mage.

Seriously. I was going to give up on Rogue until I used this build. Try it. You'll love it. The damage is absolutely nuts. I can burn through 10k HP from any class in 6 seconds.

It sounds bad on paper, but I really cannot express the difference this build makes. And I spent about 300+ gold respeccing when I was initially at a 15G respec cost.

With 5 people at Blacksmith, you know it's awesome when you can kill a shaman with 9k hp before anyone else even notices you.

Edited, Oct 20th 2008 5:00pm by Zafire

Edited, Oct 20th 2008 5:03pm by Zafire

You realize that Imp Poisons doesn't do **** for you, since you should be using Mind Numbing/Wound (MH/OH) with Deadly Brew?

Your build sucks, Zafire.

Out of curiosity Zafire, is that a build you're using just for Battlegrounds or for some form of Arena, and if so what comps?

Cheers.

Figured, thanks for clarifying.

Okay, let's break this down. Since your ego is obviously bigger then your Richard.

I have 5% more crit then you. You talk about your crit SS's. You crit SS with a dagger? You suck. If you don't SS with a dagger, I have way more crit then you. Your only arguement here can be "My gear is better then yours"

You talk about the SS glyph. It has a 40% chance to give another combo point with a critical hit. Well, my Seal Fate gives my hemo's a 100% chance to give an extra combo point. You suck again.

25% extra energy regeneration using 40 point SS's and 35 energy evis's and 40 point CS's, isn't going to give you as much energy conservation as 25 energy hemo's, 30 energy cheap shots, and 25 energy evis's. Adrenaline Rush has a 5 minute recast, Overkill is whenever the @#%^ I cheap shot someone.

Cold Blood is a crit evis right when I need it. Prep also cools down Cold Blood.

I have Lethality. 30% more crit damage. You got jack crap.

Theo, VARP in BG's is not as good as my build. I am sorry. Anyone can try it and witness it for themself

Edited, Oct 20th 2008 8:09pm by Zafire

I don't think either of your posts says much other than "I took all these talents that you don't have".

Just test it in a spreadsheet.
I know spreadsheets arent good for testing PvP builds, but what you're talking about here is who is doing more dps anyway...>.>

Yeah, but let's be frank. No-one cares about a BG build. Arena is where all the good players end up because it has the best rewards, so a pvp spec is first and foremost an arena spec.

Interesting debate... I have to say, I tried out Zafire's build last night, and it was a massive improvement! First encounter that I had was a decently-geared warlock riding past me in AV - took him down and barely lost 5% of my HP! I finished 5th for damage done in that BG too, and that is the highest I've been post-patch by a significant margin! After I got used to it, I was taking down mages, priests and hunters all over the place, until Runetotem got shut down anyway...

I think I'd be crazy to not try Theo's VARP, the man knows his onions, but I think until WotLK comes out and I start acquiring some gear that can do that build justice, I'll carry on with this build. Or, at least, until I start losing again...

Thanks for the advice everyone - here and elsewhere. I recommend this build to any sword rogues that have also struggled in BGs, although respect if you want to try Theo's - I'd be interested to hear how you fared if you do!


Cheers.

Oh shaddap, you knew as well as any of us that that was an excellent post Therion =P

Seriously though, that's more of what I've been thinking. Theo's builds are mostly about survivability/mobility... And while they are very good specs for how WoW worked pre-patch, they don't work half as good now.

I tried some arenas of my own yesterday and got a little more insight in the situation... EVERYTHING seems to be about burst damage right now. Even in a healer/rogue comp like I played (with me being mutilate), the key to winning was bursting down 1 enemy ASAP to create a 2v1 situation. While mobility specs might do more damage in the long run, the long run doesn't exist anymore. I don't think I had a match lasting longer than 2 minutes, and that was an exception; we played against a mage/retardin and ice block/bubble greatly lengthened the fight.

It sounds stupid, but what was retarded pre-patch (think ambush build) does actually win you fights as it is now. And I've got mixed feelings about that.

You can't become a "good player" if you don't raid unless you do BG's and get good gear from honor to become a good player. I've been 70 for 3 weeks now and I got 55k more honor to grind before i'm done with everything. Sadly this will probably be next weekend, with work and everything.



I considered Imp EA, but if you get five combo points you need to evis or KS. I chose Improved Poisons because double Instant gives the most short term damage. Especially against plate. Yes, I even use evis against plate. Against Paladin's i'm doing 2-3k crit Evis's! I was actually pretty surprised with this. I'll be happy to show screenshots if theres any disbelief. I can actually tear down paladins from 10k hp to pretty much nothing in a few seconds if they don't bubble. Bubble = dead me.

You can actually blast through warriors with little effort now, too. This is what i've been doing.

CS -> Hemo Hemo, KS, hemo spam, Blind, Vanish, back the hell up. When it's gone they'll try to AoE you or break you from stealth. Walk up to them again, you'll have full energy now. Sap, CS, Cold Blood, Evis, Dismantle, Spam hemo, dead warrior in about 20 seconds. You can literally beat warriors with pure damage now. I took down a warrior with 13k hp in AV the other day that was gaurding SH. I almost died, but in the end I beat him. They usually trinket out of KS, so that's what blind is for. They usually wont let you smack them for 10 seconds. But still. No evasion needed. No Prep needed. Nothing.

You can feel free to disagree with me, but this is what i've been experiencing with this build for the last few days. Double Instant adds crippling from Deadly Brew too, so it's kind-of win/win. I don't really use Mind-numbing or Wound, because quite frankly nothing really last past stuns to matter. It's no longer about mobility or control: It's kill them before they can do a damn thing.



A) My build (I'll call it OPH (Overkill, Prep, Hemo) Adds Fleet Footed to mobility, which is a 15% movement increase. This can be useful for classes that like to run around and cast instant spells on you. Warlocks and mages do this a lot. Especially warlocks. Being able to catch up to them really helps. It still adds Camo/Imp. Sap/ for mobility and 1min CoS/full master of deception/2min vanishes for surviability.

B) It adds a lot to killing ability. 5% crit, 20% more evis damage, 25 energy hemo's, 25 energy evis's, Cold Blood, Lethality, 3 points in RS (60% is still more then 25 energy half the time on 5-point abilities). Preperation cools down Cold Blood if you really need two crit evis's in a short time. It adds Seal Fate, which is 2 combo points when a hemo crits. I cannot express how amazing 25 energy hemo's are. It only looks like your energy goes down 5-10 everytime you hemo. My build gives Vigor too. More max energy = longer ability spam.

Way I look at it:

5 hemo's under Overkill is 125 energy. 3 SS's regularly is 120 energy. 5 hemo's > 3 SS's.

C) It gives medicore enemy control. You have 4 ways to break from a mage.
1) Trinket
2) Cloak of Shadows
3) Vanish
4) Prep. Vanish.

The point of this build is just to kill as fast as possible, and it does the job quite well. 4 seconds worth of stun from CS is enough to take out 7-8k hp on clothies. When i'm going against a warlock or priest I typically CoS before CS is over, that way I get 9 seconds of pain.

I hope that answers your questions. I'm really trying to get people to look outside theo's box. This works REALLY well in BG's. And if you're going to be BGing for a while, I reccomend this.


Edited, Oct 21st 2008 4:16pm by Zafire

Its been established and agreed upon by both parties here that Theo's build is superior for arena, ok so lets look at the BG aspect just to finish this up.

Theo contends that he does as much, if not more damage than Zaf, Zaf disagrees and says he has higher burst potential ect. Hard to test number parses in PvP so I wont go there, but I do have one question. It is apparent Theo has more mobility/survivability, but Zaf, if you were going for sheer damage and going that far down in the assassination tree, why not grab mutilate and have a 41/5/15 build? I had great success with that make up and was able to grab DW spec, grab mutilate and a few more assassination goodies (including focused attacks which helps a lot). I lose a few sub talents, including preparation, but if your argument is for BG supremacy, a 10 minute cool down ability does not seem very BG friendly to me.

You could take the 5 out of DW spec and fill out your sub tree if initiative and dirty tricks are that important to you, but I found the CP generation of muti doesn't need initiative.

So less survivability than having Overkill Prep? Yes...less survivability once every 10 minutes.

Just throwing this opinion up there for discussion. Thoughts?